posted
No problem. I think that you are using a more narrow definition of courage. I wasn't all that invested in the argument. If I get bored and have time later, I'll look up the old argument.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, there was complaint of a golden age past when I first showed up in spring of 2003, coincidentally the week after Baldar was banned. I was so jealous of the ghost of Bonducca past.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The golden age as I remember it was ruled by Pat, celia, mack, Dan Raven, and the postcount war between Tom and Bob Scopatz. It was the days of Dagonee first posting here as well, and mph. I'm sure there are other aspects, you don't miss the things that aren't gone so much. I was also jealous of the wench thread.
Aside, why is slut a hated epithet and wench is considered cool? I know why in a general sociolinguistic sense, but it was part of why I eschewed that thread.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: 2004 was at least a couple of years past the golden age.
Which would imply that the golden age ended at least before December of 2002. Additionally, if Noemon's rule of thumb is accurate, that means the peak of the golden age was roughly in March 2000
As a point of reference, that gay bishop-elect thread which was linked to as an example of good behaviour was from August 2003.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: Links like that merely prove that there is no such time as a golden age. Look at the contents in the first post in the thread.
No, they don't. Look at the rest of the thread, particularly the last page or so.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Golden Age, truly, was pre-Baldar. By 2004, the dawn had gone down to day. By now, the day has been plunged into moonless and starless night.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Baldar was indeed the first real sign of the end, because it indicated that the mods didn't know how to deal with someone determined to be insulting no matter what.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't think anyone should draw any conclusions based on Papa Moose not acting quickly right now, since he and Mama are expecting a birth at any moment. He might be otherwise occupied.
True, that hadn't occurred to me. I wonder how it's going.
Hi Bob!
quote:Gefilte fish isn't part of Judaism, either. Except very, very peripherally.
Which was kinda the point. There's a lot of things related tangentially to Judaism that aren't strictly Judaic theology, but the way he worded it... (sigh)..... it was a joke (ok?)
quote:the thread began with Papa Janitor saying "no more personal attacks" and the theme of the thread promptly became "everyone point at people who are ruining the forum." Lisa was right about that irony
This started when KoM identified himself as one of those who was ruining the forum. Lisa, as she pointed out, got dragged into it. Thing is, Lisa's tone has changed dramatically since she came here; she needn't have been dragged in at all.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good gravy, it's not often that I forget completely about a thread I myself contributed to. I post so little that I usually remember each post, or at least vaguely recollect the circumstances around it. But I posted three times in that thread and don't remember the thread at all. Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: You are dodging the entire point of my post. Are you, or were you ever, able to change your behavior at Hatrack?
If that was the point of your post, it was very well hidden; you would have been better off asking directly in the first place. To answer the question, yes, but I haven't been convinced of the desirability of doing so.
What could I possibly do to convince you, if numerous posts by numerous people nearly begging you to cut it out haven't been enough? Chocolate? Cookies? Signing a petition to institute Atheist Day? Consider it done.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blind study demonstrating a greater rate of deconversions in the absence of judgements of rationality?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
How about a blind study demonstrating the relative jerkitude of random Hatrack posts? As much as you may think the former matters, the latter is actually the bigger concern.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
p.s. I'll PM some stuff, but I'm waiting on the issue until the moose-baby is here and healthy and a-o-k.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm really having a hard time with the fact that KoM entered this thread, broke the rules, and practically begged to be "subject banned," got subject banned, and is continuing to spout his arrogance about religious topics.
As I understood PJ's post, I'm not subject-banned but am on probation for that status.
Gefilte fish has nothing to do with Judaic (is that the right adjective?) theology, being rather a manifestation of Jewish culture; in any case, though, it seems to me that you may have missed the slightly dry tone of that post. I found dkw's question a bit silly and responded accordingly.
Nope. You ARE subject banned, and are on probation for being banned from the forum. At least that's how my superstitious, religious mind read it.
IIRC, it goes from regular posting, to a subject ban... which is a final warning before actually being banned from the forum.
By saying you can consider it a "final warning", I think he meant you were subject banned, and on your last warning before being banned from the forum.
YMMV. I am sure that when he gets back from more important things he will take care of it one way or another.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Baldar was indeed the first real sign of the end, because it indicated that the mods didn't know how to deal with someone determined to be insulting no matter what.
I think this link describes fairly well what moderators should have to expect their job totally feeling like some days.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I don't. Papa is great, we should keep him.
I'm trying to put this attitude in context. You think things are terrible here. You think Papa is great. Do you think he's a great person? I think so. Do you think he's a great moderator? Do you think he has done an adequate job as a moderator? Do you think the things you are so upset about regarding this forum are out of the control of a great moderator? Would it be beyond your sense of decency to voice any negative feelings about the job he has done, regardless of what kind of job he has done, which will lead you to say he's doing a great job no matter what you actually think? Is that an attitude that is likely to change anything? Because for all the problems that have crept in over the years partly due to lackluster moderation, some people here have been unfailingly positive about the moderator. I understand that you can just love your neighborhood cop and respect him even if crime in your neighborhood gets worse and worse, but you have to also see that clearly the style of policing that his organization has been doing or allowing him to do has not worked well. What I'm wondering is, can you maintain your respect for someone, and still feel that their role needs to change, and that possibly their position should be filled by someone who can play a different role?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not everyone agrees that Papa is part of the problem. Keep in mind that he does not set policy (in general), and in many ways his hands are tied.
Given all that, I think he is doing an excellent job, completely aside from my respect for him as a person, and my recognition of the incredible amount of angst and effort he puts into this place.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have that in mind, but given that, I am asking for some context in the idea that he is doing an excellent job. Maybe he is not able -as in not being allowed- to do an excellent job.
Aside from that, it is baffling to me that there might be policies in place that cause so much difficulty for him being an effective moderator. Given the apparent ambivalence of the site's ownership at this point, why would they pursue a policy that has helped make the place something to be ambivalent about? It's this "I hate it, I love it" thing that seems to run from the Cards to the members that I don't see as all that healthy.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem is, you can't moderate people into posting better. You can only excise bad stuff, but the moderator can't create good stuff.
At one time, the quality of posters on here was so high, that even if someone came in guns blazing, they were generally such an anomaly that they stuck out. They soon realized they didn't have to be shout to be heard, and they settled into a tone of civility like everyone else was using.
In other words, it was a self-perpetuating cycle. People were civil because other people were civil. This led to a civility that spawned more civility.
Not perfection, mind you. But even when things went wrong, bannings and mod action were rare. We were like a bunch of kids playing in the far corner of the playground at recess. We liked to think of ourselves as working things out on our own, and we didn't go running to the yard duty for every little problem, and for the most part, we WERE able work things out on our own.
It would never have occured to most of us that the secret to perpetuating what we had would be moderator interference. It's ridicuous to think that the secret to making it what it once was is to have a mod "shaping" it into what it's supposed to be.
The fact is, you can't step in the same river twice. Hatrack is not going to be what it used to be. Even if the mods do decide it's imporatant to be more heavy handed with those who are problems, the good stuff--the stuff that makes this a place worth coming to--that doesn't come from rules. That just comes from good people coming on here and being themselves. And it's going to be a different bunch of people, and it's going to be a different dynamic than it's ever been before.
Even on a playground, the yard duty's job isn't to sit hovering over everybody's shoulder saying, "No, you can't say that," or "Yes, that was a much nicer way to say that, Donnie," or otherwise coaching the behaviors they want out of children.
Given that here on Hatrack, we're not actually children, the "hands off" moderation policy makes even more sense. A lot of us appreciate the fact that a moderator would make efforts to handle things quietly, not make a lot of big, public pronouncements, handle things quietly out of view of the forum in general rather than wade into the middle of a mess and say, "All eyes on me now."
Some of us feel that the less "lustery" a moderator is, the more the forum gets to be a real conversation instead of a formal lincoln-douglas style debate. I believe (I don't know this) that Papa feels a bit of the same way, and that it's part (if not all) of why his post count has gone down so much. He realizes that, as moderator, even if he posts in a "game" thread, his posts carry a different weight than the posts around them; it tilts the boat.
Now please be clear on exactly what I'm saying--I'm not trying to make a case for an absence of moderation. There's a tough balancing act the moderator has to carry out, between getting involved enough, and not getting involved too much;. It's really easy to say, in hindsight, that the balance was off, but at the time when you're making the decision, it's not nearly as easy--especially when you feel (as I do) that it's a virtue of the forum that it has so little moderator interference. You're really hesitant to wield that ax when you worry that your cure might do more damage than the cause.
The things Moose does do--queitly, behind the scenes, not in public where everybody gets to join in and high-five the public lyching--he puts a lot; of thought into. One thing all of us who know him can say is that we are SURE we're not being moderated by someone who just casually shrugs his shoulders at things, says, "Eh, whatever," and then goes back to ignoring responsibility. The man cares. Cares enough to let us be what we're going to be, unless he abosolutely has to interfere.
For people who miss the days when they could run to the yard duty who would come back and make everybody go stand against different walls, and they'd feel a great sense of triumph and closure, that might seem like a problem.
But for the rest of us, the time would come when we'd come away from the walls, and we'd still have to see the same people, and we'd still have the same problems, and we'd still have to figure out some way to figure them out and move on and get back to having fun. The yard duty just stopped us from killing each other. The rest was our job, not theirs.
Same goes here.
Here's my diagnosis of what happened here. It's not complete, but it's a bit of it:
While the vast majority of the people who came to Hatrack shouting soon learned they could quiet down and still get listened to, every once in a while someone would come along who, rather than learning from the response they got, decided that they were being listened to because of, instead of in spite of, their idiosyncracies. They thought the respect that was shown to everybody was being shown to them because of the power with which they conveyed their ideas, and never quite caught on that respect could be had here easier than they were used to.
This is an exxageration, of course. When people would make inflammatory posts, many people would get inflammatory back. But eventually things would settle down in a way that made these new people think they'd earned respect rather than that civility had returned.
Because of this, because they still thought respect was something that they had earned, it never occured to them to try to give it to others as freely as it had, for the most part, been given to them. But they stuck around, because they didn't want to lose the respect they'd won here. Even though they didn't come often, since they stuck around, their numbers grew. As their numbers grew, Hatrack became less civil.
Meanwhile, many of the old-time posters, seeing the difference between "old Hatrack" and "new Hatrack" began to develop a sense of superiority to the new folks who were ruining the forum. Their contempt for the new folks led them to a lack of respect for many of the new folks. They couldn't see that while the new folks were bringing a lack of respect with them, the respect they'd had in the old days was dying in the light of thier sense of superiority to new blood. The new people weren't the only change--many of the old posters were no longer who they once were either.
Many of these old-timers simply found somewhere else to go pretend they were doing what they had done before--in the playground analogy, they talked their parents into moving them to a private school--where they could talk about how they missed the days of civility and decorum and acceptance, all in their own little exclusive corner where they played by themselves.
And of the people who stayed, or who chose to play in both playgrounds, there was often such a patronizing sense of, "Oh, you'll learn how things really work here one day, little boy" to anyone new, that as new people came in, between the patronizing old timers and the hostile newbies, it didn't seem like a fun place to be any more.
Again, this is an exageration, but not without basis in reality.
I hesitate to post this because I don't know if it looks like I'm trying to make one side or another out to be a bad guy. I'm not. I'm REALLY not. So if you think I'm trying to point any fingers that's not my intention.
Because the fact is--this is real life. This is what happens in real life in communities and schools and churches. People disagree. People move. Dynamics change. People stop finding what they were looking for in one place and they try to go find it in another. People argue and make up. People argue and never make up. People take things in ways they were never intended and get offended. People hear things that could have offended them and let it go.
Like any community, Hatrack is not created by the moderator. It's not created by the past. It's not created by design.
Hatrack, like any community, is created by the bonds that exist between the people in it. Those little invisible connections that bind us to each other, that none of us can see, but that all of us can feel, those are the real Hatrack.
And what flows along those connections--is it hate? Is it anger? Is it bitterness? If it is, then that's what Hatrack will be. It won't matter, in the end, why it was there. It's easy to say, "But I had to hate, because he did X, Y, or Z," or "How could I not be contemptible of him, if he was THIS way?" If that's what's flowing, then that will be who we are, no matter what our justifications were.
But if it's respect that's flowing, if it's a desire to grant humanity to others that flows from person to person, then that's what Hatrack will be. When more of us choose to take that route, even with those who bring their hostility and bitterness with them, if we seek to correct them with respect, when we show the newbie the FAQ thread with respect, when we tell the new kid to do his own homework with respect, then that's what Hatrack will be.
"Be the change you want to see in the world," Ghandi said. Even if the British are imprisioning you unjustly, you still hold the door for them, just as a reminder of what they could be, because you believe that respect for others is so important, that not even their disrespect will make you give up your respect for them, as people.
To some people this stuff doesn't matter. To some people, like all internet forums--heck, like all PLACES--Hatrack is just an audience, and success is acheived when everyone sees them the right way or takes the right attitude towards them.
But if you do care about Hatrack, and if you do want to see it get better, just think about this: The great moments that make Hatrack fun aren't when we criticize somebody into improving. The great moments that make Hatrack the kind of place where people want to become "real" aren't when we find a great way to express just how awful this person or that person are.
And when you see a long, preachy, self-righteous post like this from me, you can, at the very least, realize how grateful we all are that someone who knows how to step lightly is moderating the forum, and not someone like me.
I love Hatrack. I miss the old days as much as anybody. I wish it were better right now.
But it is what it is. It's never going to be what it was again, and all our pining is just creating a wedge that keeps it from feeling as tight knit as it did then.
Any pre-existing idea about what Hatrack should be, aside from the basic rules any forum should have, just put us at odds with each other, driving a wedge with anyone who has a different idea of what it should be that keeps it from feeling as tight knit as it could feel.
I think, instead, if we all just accept that Hatrack is going to be a new forum every day, resolve to be our best selves regardless of what anybody else is doing, and enjoy the new Hatrack we find that day, we just might could start to suprise ourselves with what we find.
posted
While I don't agree with doc on every point, I think she made some really good points in her post. In particular I agree that a community like this has to be supported, or even created, by the posters rather than the mods.
I think that Papa has been doing this a long time now, as far as mods go, and I appreciate the fact that he tries to separate his mod duties from his regular posts. I also like the fact that he tries to guide rather than force people to act better most of the time.
Communities change, and not all of the changes ehre have been bad. There NEVER was a "golden" time of Hatrack....there were always people like Baldar, and Cedrious, and other morons. But the tone HAS deteriorated in the past 2 years to the point where even I don't always ruch here and post what I want.
Hatrack has had a profound influence on who I am as an adult. Not the site itself, but the interactions I have had, both positive and not so positive, with other posters. For me to be unsure if I want to post personal stuff here shows you how much things have changed.
Not just because of the years I have spent here, or the gatherings I had been to or attended IRL, but because at one time I would have shared almost anything here with this community. Even if people didn't agree with me, I knew that the vast majority of people here would support me, and that the discussion wouldn't turn nasty.
Now, I post info stuff, or ask tech questions.....but I haven't offered to hold a gathering in over 5 years. In part because I don't want some of the people who are now regulars to know where I live.
I don't WANT the "good old days" back. I want to see what comes next, and try to keep some of the things I liked about the past alive.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It seems to me that there's just too much bad blood to ever return to the sort of civility that existed when I first registered. Too many posters who believe it's all the other guy's fault and and harbor an attitude of "why should I change if they don't." Neither view can be the source of respectful conversation. If you can't forgive and forget your biggest opponents/naysayers then all civility can easily fly out the window like a spent cigarette.
On a more personal note, I came to this forum because of the civility and lurked for upwards of a year because I felt too dumb to contribute anything more than blanket agreements with what this or that poster said about whatever subject was being discussed. When I finally tried to start posting regularly, I felt like I was shot down pretty ruthlessly by others. So I soon stopped and just kept lurking out of fear of being insulted or perceived as being insulting. Now half of that's my fault obviously for not having the guts to stand up to that fear, but with a few notable exceptions, I felt like my opinions weren't valued and like I was not welcome. Now that may or may not be true, but I am just reporting perceived reality.
Everyone here has been supportive of me when I've had personal problems, even the people that I've vehemently disagreed with, and I thank all of you for that. I look forward to a future date when I can feel comfortable posting a landmark thread I've been planning on for so long. But I don't think that's going to happen until a) we, as a community, can learn to forgive and forget (and I include myself in this statement) and b) we can recognize each others' rights to disagree. I know, I know. I sound like the worst kind of quasi-intellectual cliché when I say that, but it's my two cents, take it or leave it.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Hatrack has had a profound influence on who I am as an adult. Not the site itself, but the interactions I have had, both positive and not so positive, with other posters. For me to be unsure if I want to post personal stuff here shows you how much things have changed.
I definitely notice that it has trained up my arguing skills. Bring up religion or politics, and I am far more capable and maybe willing to defend my positions than in my pre-Hatrack days. I'm not sure that matters much, but whatever.
Also, I hear you on the not wanting to share personal info here anymore. There's some ugly behavior that goes down here, from time to time. If people would say the things here they say, what would they do to someone if it were made easier by that someone having shared personal info? That worries me, sometimes.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't agree with you on a lot of things, steven, but I have noticed your change in style when posting, and it's been a positive change IMO. Considering how often we disagree, and how we interacted in the past, that's a fairly big compliment.....or at least I meant it as one.
I don;t WANT to have a board full of people who think the same things I do, for the same reasons. I WANT it to have differing opinions on all sorts of things. I want conversation, not a greek chorus. That's part of why I have little tolerance of people who come in here and start complaining about how their views are why people here don't like them.
Most of the time that is purely bullcrap. Some of my FAVORITE posters here hold positions I deeply disagree with, and we rarely agree on any specific topic.
Most of the time, IMO, it has more to do with how they act and how they say things than the substance of their arguments. I have had many threads where I agreed with someone, but because of HOW they say things I hated to come forth and SAY I agreed with them. Not because I hate them....but because I didn't agree with the way they treated people who disagreed with them.
Epictetus, while I hear what you are saying, I disagree. I think that it CAN return to a level of civility that is rare these days. This isn't the first time this board has fallen on bad times....and even now, I'd rather post here then anywhere else.
I hesitate to share some things here, but at least part of that is because I had an identity theft issue a few years ago. Also, I am about to become a member of a professional class that has to worry about their "public face" even online.
It's now ALL because of things here, although that is part of it. So is getting older, getting married, and some of the personal issues I have encountered in the past few years.
I think I may offer to host a FL Hatrack gathering this summer, if anyone is interested. Everyone would be welcome, although I would expect people to behave IRL. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
