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Author Topic: 2010 US Census
Mucus
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Which reminds me as a tangent:
Comedian Joe Wong at the Annual Radio & TV Correspondents’ Dinner

I thought it was pretty funny, albeit obviously not as daring as Colbert's go at it.

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Juxtapose
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Farmgirl, would you elaborate a bit further on your comments regarding accents and this being an American Census? The only ways I've been able to parse them have been pretty offensive. I'm hoping you can supply a different interpretation.
Y'know, I wouldn't be a fan if her meaning had been simply that she didn't like the caller having an accent either. But frankly the way you phrased your question, Juxtapose, rubbed me the wrong way too. Whereas Jake's post, asking precisely the same question, really, didn't offend at all.

Perhaps the more effective way to get an explanation isn't to sound like an irritated supervisor dealing with a subordinate who's just screwed up?

Probably. I'm pretty bad at predicting how my tone is going to carry through the tubes. It's one of the reasons I don't post more often.
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Rakeesh
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I believe you, but that really doesn't seem a problem with tone so much as outright wording. I'm imagining someone saying your post right now in a variety of tones of voice, and having much the same response to it. So lemme strike the 'irritated supervisor' from my post and leave it at 'supervisor dealing with a subordinate'.
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Juxtapose
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Any part of the wording, specifically? I'm a little at a loss here.
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Rakeesh
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"I'm hoping you can supply a different interpretation."

I can remember my first impression being, "Huh, well, Internet tone isn't reliable...well, OK, is Juxtapose Farmgirl's boss?" at the end.

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MrSquicky
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I think it's this bit:
quote:
I'm hoping you can supply a different interpretation.
It sort of sounds like you are telling her to supply a different interpretation.
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katharina
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It sets up a situation where you consider Farmgirl to be in a position where she needs to justify herself to you. Since she doesn't, it isn't an appopriate situation to set up.
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The White Whale
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quote:
...well, OK, is Juxtapose Farmgirl's boss?
Thank you, Internet.
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kmbboots
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Well, that took about a minute and a half.
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Juxtapose
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I see. Maybe phrasing it as a question would work better.

--------

Farmgirl, I'd still like to hear a bit more of your thoughts. Would you be willing to share them?

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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Adding up the money spent by Americans on a product means nothing.

So, by your utterly inane logic, if Obamacare ends up costing us twice as much as the status quo, that 'means nothing.'

Because it's just adding up the money spent by Americans on a product.

Good lord.

American's spend more on everything. We aren't nationalizing dog food. We have larger homes, more vehicles, more pets and better health care. All those things cost more money.

According to the bill signed into law...preventative medicine is "FREE". Doesn't that make sense? Preventative medicine can save money in the long run. Great idea. I'm sure this will lower the cost of healthcare in America.

One problem....it isn't free. The laws of physics still apply. Insurance companies can't charge a copay for a mammogram or colonoscopy but that doesn't make it "free". The insurance company still has to pay the hospital for the procedure. The hospital still has to pay the doctors, nurses and for equipment.

What's the catch. Your "free" preventative medicine will be made up for with higher premiums. Of course the insurance companies will be demonized for raising premiums but what choice do they have. Raise premiums or go out of business.

Exactly according to plan. Government mandates force them to either raise premiums or go out of business to cover your "free" preventative care. Either way, they lose. Evil greedy profiteers or go out of business. Sounds like a sound plan for a government takeover. The bill wasn't for single payer government controlled healthcare. It'll lead to it on a painful path.

I didn't allow you to put an oak tree in my backyard...I only wanted a shrub. People are short sighted and stupid.

Immediate single payer would be better. It's inevitable. They prefer the pain to get there over being direct and honest with the public. The public can suffer for their own good.

In reality, single payer was passed, it's just going to be a painful decades long transition.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Adding up the money spent by Americans on a product means nothing.

So, by your utterly inane logic, if Obamacare ends up costing us twice as much as the status quo, that 'means nothing.'

Because it's just adding up the money spent by Americans on a product.

Good lord.

American's spend more on everything. We aren't nationalizing dog food. We have larger homes, more vehicles, more pets and better health care. All those things cost more money ...
The original statement is that Americans spend twice as much on healthcare. That is actually a % of GDP figure. It should be obvious that Americans cannot spend more on "everything" in this kind of measure.
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malanthrop
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Inane logic...? Is our heathcare so bad because we spend so much? I suppose Zimbabwe has the best healthcare for spending the least.

If you really cared about a person, the cost of their care would be irrelevant.

Also, your "GDP" numbers are meaningless. As a percentage of GDP Americans spend more on pets than Europeans. Americans spend more on cars than Europeans. Americans spend more on red meat than Europeans, we eat more red meat. We have more pets and more cars. We also have the best healthcare in the world. That's why wealthy Europeans and European politicians come to America for care. America also spends the highest GDP on the military. Where does the rest of the world turn to for a good military? If Canada didn't have the luxury of having free military protection, they might reconsider their healthcare expense. The US should start charging the UN for their peacekeeping missions instead of being it's #1 supporter in finance and troops.

America is the best and spends the most in a lot of area's. GDP is meaningless. Maybe we should look at GDP expenditures on government employees.
Your GDP numbers are comparing us against countries where you can't afford a home, they rely on the US military, they don't own as many cars, etc.

GDP numbers are especially skewed when you live in a nation that "PRODUCES" less.

The US is tops in healthcare responsiveness and quality. If you need good-fast care...US is top of the list.

Good and fast costs more. America, the originators of McDonald's and high speed internet.

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malanthrop
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By the way, Americans pay too much for internet as a percentage of GDP. There are nations that don't have internet, let alone high speed. The one's with universal dial-up are better. Without America, you wouldn't even have dial-up.
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Parkour
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Inane logic...? Is our heathcare so bad because we spend so much? I suppose Zimbabwe has the best healthcare for spending the least.

If you really cared about a person, the cost of their care would be irrelevant.

Also, your "GDP" numbers are meaningless.

Wow, you're really in over your head. The more you talk, the more it is obvious. Sorry.
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malanthrop
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Statistics are a funny thing. If you need heart surgery, you get it the fastest in the United States. If you need a hip replacement..you get it the fastest in the United States. If you don't have insurance, you can go to an emergency room and you have to be treated,..in the United States.

If you need a heart surgery in Canada, get on a list that considers your age. If you're a Canadian with means, fly to America and save your life. If you're a Canadian with universal care and a broken arm, sit in the lobby of the emergency room all day waiting to be helped. The uninsured American would've had his arm set and cast put in place hours before yours. The uninsured American needing heart by-pass surgery would be under the knife while you wait on a list prioritized by metrics.

You benefit from the greedy innovation of the United States. I wont bother to the list them. I'll let you consider. Fill in the blank.....The first _________ occurred in the US.

Any area you choose. Medicine, technology, etc.

If America gets European style healthcare, the rich Europeans will have no where to run. If America was Europe, the world would still have dial up. Maybe DSL.

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Juxtapose
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The first successful heart transplant occurred in South Africa.
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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Good and fast costs more. America, the originators of McDonald's and high speed internet.

You're putting McDonald's in the category 'good, fast, and costs more'?
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
The first successful heart transplant occurred in South Africa.

South Africa must be ahead of the world. How about things like: radio, flight, electricity, light bulbs, vaccines, automobiles, computers, etc, etc.

Our society of greed sure has produced a lot. Unlike the "fair" nations of the world, we are a nation of greedy innovators.

Greedy innovators better humanity. Fair socialist nations sit back and wait for the government to provide. America's contributions to the world have delayed the collapse of European nations. Europe should be thankful we haven't treated medical and mechanical technology the same as weapons technology. We hide our weapons technology and share the rest. Be glad we shared Penicillin.

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Mucus
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Very true.
Alexander Fleming was a great American.
May we all bow in the shadow of his generosity in sharing his invention with the rest of the world.

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rivka
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*snort* Of course, while you are absolutely correct that Fleming was no American, it was Americans who made penicillin commercially viable.
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Dante
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quote:
How about things like: radio, flight, electricity, light bulbs, vaccines, automobiles, computers, etc, etc.
God bless those great Americans like Bose, Tesla, Hertz, Marconi, du Temple, Forlanini, Vuia, Volta, Faraday, Ohm, Bell, Siemens, Kelvin, Swan, Brody, Jenner, Pasteur, Bernardi, Lanchester, Benz, Otto, Diesel, Schickard, Thomas de Colmar, Babbage, Herzstark, Turing, Zuse, and Faggin.
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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by Dante:
quote:
How about things like: radio, flight, electricity, light bulbs, vaccines, automobiles, computers, etc, etc.
God bless those great Americans like Bose, Tesla, Hertz, Marconi, du Temple, Forlanini, Vuia, Volta, Faraday, Ohm, Bell, Siemens, Kelvin, Swan, Brody, Jenner, Pasteur, Bernardi, Lanchester, Benz, Otto, Diesel, Schickard, Thomas de Colmar, Babbage, Herzstark, Turing, Zuse, and Faggin.
Really? is this supposed to be a refutation, or are you just trying to be cute?
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Paul Goldner
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Looks like a pretty good refutation to me.

The idea that the rest of the world isn't good at invention or making inventions commercially available is a completely ridiculous idea.

Americans didn't invent electricity, whatever that means, nor did Americans invent flight (Ben Franklin saw a balloon flight in France 130 years before the Wright brothers, and an Englishman pioneered self-powered fixed wing flight in the 1840's, so while it would be accurate to say that Americans invented "controlled heavier-than-air powered flight" that's about it for major American contributions to the invention flight.

An Italian invented radio. Or possibly a german, depending on what you count as radio. If we grant invention to Tesla, who was the first one to reliably transmit radio waves, well, he was Serbian. Got his education in Europe, and didn't move to the US until he was 30. So I SUPPOSE you could say an American invented radio, but that would be pretty disengenuous.

The german's invented the automobile, and thousands of automobiles sold in europe before Olds built his first assembly line, so...

Germans, Britians, and Americans all invented computers around the same time working independently of each other, and computers were sold all through Europe independent of any American innovation or marketing.

Really, the list is crap from beginning to end, as a demonstration of either american ingenuity or American marketing.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
If you don't have insurance, you can go to an emergency room and you have to be treated,..in the United States.
You sure can, and then spend years if not the rest of your life doing nothing but paying for it to the neglect of other things that need to be paid for like insurance for the next time something happens.

I think one of the best episodes of 30 Days was when he and his fiance attempted to live on minimum wage for a month. He got a job at a temp agency (he eventually realizes he has to work two full time jobs), and she got a job working in the kitchen of a cafe. He took the bus to work, and she walked two hours everyday so as to save money. He got an inflamed hand from doing manual labor, and she got an infection that needed anti-biotics. Both of them tried to get seen a free clinic where a doctor could simply prescribe antibiotics for her or steroids for him. They spent hours waiting only to be told that their names hadn't been randomly called (they had a lottery system as there were just too many people) for that day. Finally in desperation they went the emergency room route. She got a quick checkup and a prescription, he got a surgical wrap for his hand and some anti-inflammatory cream, (the wrap cost $40 on the bill, about one days wages at minimum wage after taxes.)

At the end of the month, they had made rent, their rental deposit, food (they were eating essentially rice/beans beans/rice), they had gotten furniture for free from a church program, and they managed to eat out exactly once for his fiances birthday, and take two children out to a matinee. But when they got the two bills from the emergency room they were in the hole several thousand dollars.

They didn't even set out to demonstrate whether or not America's health care was effective, it was just something that came up when both of them got sick while working.

[ March 28, 2010, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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Rakeesh
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And of course that doesn't even get into the problem of difference in care in ERs compared to regular doctors.
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malanthrop
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America is the "great melting pot". We didn't invent everything but we know how to make it available to the masses, cheap. So cheap in fact, their production is eventually exported to other nations.

American's are resilient and inventive. Our society allows for upward mobility. When my wife and I first got married, we made $800 a month and had a $550 rent payment in a 500 square foot apartment surrounded by drug dealers and prostitutes. I know beans and rice, top ramen and noodle ronie quite well. When the dinner choice is Top Ramen with an egg or tuna and the tuna is an expensive splurge, you know what it is like to be poor. We look back on those days fondly. We knew it was temporary because we were improving ourselves. I'm lucky to live in a nation where that lifestyle is but a stepping stone. Some people accept their current level, others strive to improve. If you accept where you are, the rest owe you nothing. If you're too lazy to improve your current situation, you have accepted your current situation. It took decades of long hours and student loan debt to get where we are.

I read an article in the local paper about an unfortunate individual who was let go from his job at a Pawn Shop after working there for 12 years. I don't pity a man who worked at a pawn shop for 12 years. Many of the people who voted for "change" accept the status quo in their own lives.

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scholarette
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mal- it is great that you were able to move up the economic ladder. Statistically, you had a higher probability of doing so in Canada (or Norway). Despite our claims of upward mobility, most other nations actually do better on that scale.
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Jenos
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
America is the "great melting pot". We didn't invent everything but we know how to make it available to the masses, cheap. So cheap in fact, their production is eventually exported to other nations.

American's are resilient and inventive. Our society allows for upward mobility. When my wife and I first got married, we made $800 a month and had a $550 rent payment in a 500 square foot apartment surrounded by drug dealers and prostitutes. I know beans and rice, top ramen and noodle ronie quite well. When the dinner choice is Top Ramen with an egg or tuna and the tuna is an expensive splurge, you know what it is like to be poor. We look back on those days fondly. We knew it was temporary because we were improving ourselves. I'm lucky to live in a nation where that lifestyle is but a stepping stone. Some people accept their current level, others strive to improve. If you accept where you are, the rest owe you nothing. If you're too lazy to improve your current situation, you have accepted your current situation. It took decades of long hours and student loan debt to get where we are.

I read an article in the local paper about an unfortunate individual who was let go from his job at a Pawn Shop after working there for 12 years. I don't pity a man who worked at a pawn shop for 12 years. Many of the people who voted for "change" accept the status quo in their own lives.

American mobility is less than you perceive it to be. Many other countries are much more fluid in their social mobility, notably many European countries have greater social mobility than America. There are a significant number of problems that hinder social mobility in America, the fact that you were capable of it does not effectively show that Americans in general can "get farther if they work harder". Its much more an indicator of the fact that you were lucky, not that you were particularly more hard working than any other person in a low social class.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
mal- it is great that you were able to move up the economic ladder. Statistically, you had a higher probability of doing so in Canada (or Norway). Despite our claims of upward mobility, most other nations actually do better on that scale.

Have you ever watched House Hunters International?
You don't have to be wealthy to own a home in America. America's 10% unemployment during the "worst economic downturn since the great depression" is normal unemployment in Europe. Of course Europe has socialized medicine and guaranteed housing. France's 20% welfare rate should be praised.

Norway is a homogeneous society.

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scholarette
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I didn't say you would own a home in Europe, I said statistically you are more likely to end up higher on the economic ladder than your parents.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
Our society allows for upward mobility.

Like they've been saying, the European states have better upward mobility than the united states.

*watches information be ignored again*

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Mucus
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Not just Europe even.
Canada and Australia more than suffice as well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility#zoomed-picture

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scholarette
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Samp- technically he didn't ignore the information. He countered with an unrelated fact (home ownership).
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Farmgirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
I see. Maybe phrasing it as a question would work better.

--------

Farmgirl, I'd still like to hear a bit more of your thoughts. Would you be willing to share them?

Okay, I was going to just ignore this, because I felt you were trying to "create" an issue that doesn't exist - or pronounce upon me your own idea and interpretation of why I said that.

But after further thought, and reflection upon myself of why it bothered me, I thought I would respond.

Let me say first that you had better not DARE imagine any kind of racism/ethnic prejudice in what I said. My great friend Betto, who I have breakfast with almost every morning is from Honduras, has a very heavy accent, and I enjoy talking to him immensely and the accent does not bother me.

My other good friend, Ging, is from the Philippines and it took me forever to learn to understand what she says, but I finally "get" it now and we have lunch often and I love conversing with her.

It isn't the accent.

I think what rubbed me raw about the caller was the accent combined with the intrusive questions asked, as well as the "tone of voice" with which they were asked -- that tone that kind of implied she didn't believe my answers -- made me feel like she was accusing me of lying. I realize that her having an accent made it much more difficult for me to decipher her implied intent -- harder for me to "read" what she was asking/meant in some of her questions, and easier for me to take offense because it felt to me like her tone was one of interrogation rather than respectful confirmation of questions. You can get a lot out of a person's voice inflection, and when that can be distorted by an unfamiliar accent, it can make things come across in the wrong way.

Understand, due to the nature of this survey, these were somewhat personal questions, ones I was not comfortable answering even if the person was someone I knew, quite honestly, and here was a stranger than I couldn't even confirm anything about asking me "are you SURE"? type questions about things I didn't wish to divulge in the first place.


(Edit: And what Hobbes said on the previous page -- that thought did cross my mind....)

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Belle
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Farmgirl, thanks for clarifying. I can totally understand that if you felt the questions were too intrusive, it might make it worse because the accent just drove it home more that you were having to give information to a stranger.

Not to mention, if you hire someone to gather information on the phone they need to be clear, understandable, and above all - polite to folks.

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Juxtapose
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Farmgirl, thanks. Feeling interrogated isn't fun, and being accused of lying doubly so. What you wrote makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate you taking the time to post it.

I don't, however, see what any of that has to do with this being an American census. I believe you when you say there wasn't anything racist behind what you wrote. But I don't think it was unreasonable for me be bothered by it and and ask for clarification (even if it was poorly phrased).

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malanthrop
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Everyone should select "African American". All humans came from Africa. My ancestors were black when they migrated to Europe. The impacts of latitude on ancestral melanin content are not important....we're human. Even I can tell the difference between an Afican and an African American, at a glance. African Americans are turning white.

Check back in 1000 years. They'll have a nice tan.

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Rakeesh
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'Even you'? But I thought with your Jamaican neighbors, you were a serious expert on racial matters, malanthrop.
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malanthrop
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I know fore sure, Arty didn't select "African American".

I'm no expert because of my neighbors. It's likely I've lived a much more diverse life than you. I spent 12 years in the military with blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. Only rank matters there. Race and sex is a non-issue in the military. It is also a non-issue in my neighborhood. There are more Puerto Rican's in my neighborhood than Jamaicans. My neighborhood is extremely diverse. My working class neighbors of other races are just as concerned as I. They're just as likely to say, "There goes the neighborhood" as I am. Maybe more likely....they can't be called racist.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Race and sex is a non-issue in the military.
If we could harness your wrongness into an energy source, we'd quickly wean ourselves off foreign oil.
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malanthrop
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Race and sex is a non-issue for promotion and authority.

If anyone want's to read your link, it discusses the military's effort to prevent sexual assault and harassment. A quote from your link, "We want our Army to be an example for the rest of the country."

Your link indicates that sexual assault and harassment is an issue. Sex isn't an issue for promotion and acceptance. There will always be a-holes and rapists. At least in the military a woman or minority can't claim that they didn't have the same opportunity and a white boy will will follow the orders of and say, "yes mam" to a minority female officer. The military screens out racists like St Luke's screens out smokers.

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Rakeesh
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OK, let me see if I can get this straight. You're saying that the military acknowledges that sexual assault and sexual harassment are issues for itself. Both are directed mostly towards women.

But sex is not an issue for promotion and authority?

Did you have to train yourself to hold two such contradictory ideas in your mind at once, or does it just come naturally?

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Juxtapose
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http://are.berkeley.edu/~perloff/PDF/promotion.pdf

Mal, you should have a look at table 4, on page 35, which pretty clearly shows a correlation between race, sex, and promotion. In favor of whites and males.

ETA: the study concerns the US Navy.

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mamapajamas
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
If you want to be ignored, discounted, and treated as if you don't exist, by all means, give as little information as possible.

The people who do give information - which is not attached to your name - will thank you.

That's true. I filled mine out the minute I got it and put it back in the mailbox.

A day later I got a card reminding me to fill out my census form.

Two days later I got ANOTHER reminder to fill out my census form.

In the next few days, I got several MORE reminders.

Then, this past week, I received a second census form. So did most of my neighbors. In other zip codes in this city, they got only one.

I'm wondering whether I should fill it out and send it in and be counted TWICE.

I didn't find any of the questions particularly objectionable.

I DID, however, wonder at the cost of postage and competence of management for sending out all of those reminders and TWO census forms within certain zip codes.

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andi330
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No, in fact if you read the insert they state specifically that if you already returned your form you should not return the second. I just got a second form too. I suspect that there are some areas where large numbers of people have not returned the form. Rather than send a census worker to every residence, they are trying to get more forms back to save on costs. I don't know for sure, but that's my supposition.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Race and sex is a non-issue in the military.
If we could harness your wrongness into an energy source, we'd quickly wean ourselves off foreign oil.
That idea is brilliant.
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aeolusdallas
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace of Spades:
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
If you want to be ignored, discounted, and treated as if you don't exist...

I'm a white, male Republican. I'm used to it.
That must be why there are so few White male in the Senate. And why you never hear about white male succeeding in business....
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MattP
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quote:
I'm a white, male Republican. I'm used to it.
It's like Christian persecution in the US. It does happen, but it's like throwing rocks at tanks, technically the tanks are under attack, but...
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mamapajamas
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quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
No, in fact if you read the insert they state specifically that if you already returned your form you should not return the second. I just got a second form too. I suspect that there are some areas where large numbers of people have not returned the form. Rather than send a census worker to every residence, they are trying to get more forms back to save on costs. I don't know for sure, but that's my supposition.

I was joking about filling it in and returning the second form. I was making a joke about getting to be counted twice.

I'm wondering WHY two forms were sent out to everyone in only ONE zip code in this city.

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