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Author Topic: Pedophile Neighbor
scholarette
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My concern with SoaPiNuReYe's statement was that he offered as evidence that she wasn't raped the fast that she consented to go upstairs with his friend and that she was not injured. Neither of these facts have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not she was raped. If a man considers those two factors part of a woman's consent, he is wrong. And the fact that so many men consider those factors part of judging whether a woman was raped is an extremely upsetting acpect of modern society.

I think false accusations of rape are horrible and any woman who does that is pretty awful. However, I would not agree that it is the same level of horribleness as an actual rape. Both are horrible, but not equivalent.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
The criminalization of normal heterosexual behavior continues.

FACT: a 15 year old girl is often more inherently attractive to a heterosexual male than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old woman. In fact, a 15 year old girl is way more fertile than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old women. It simply wouldn't make biological sense, then, for that 15 year old girl not to be inherently more attractive.

If the guy in question slept with 8 year old girls, then sure, he really is a pedophile. If on the other hand he slept with 15 year old girls (who probably chose him as well) then he really shouldn't be punished. Age of consent laws are just another way feminists want to punish normal heterosexual behavior.

the age is 14 if I recall in Quebec, so age of consent laws are probably only unreasonable in the US.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
The criminalization of normal heterosexual behavior continues.
I dispute that a 25 yr old having sex with a 15 yr old is 'normal heterosexual behavior'.

quote:

FACT: a 15 year old girl is often more inherently attractive to a heterosexual male than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old woman. In fact, a 15 year old girl is way more fertile than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old women. It simply wouldn't make biological sense, then, for that 15 year old girl not to be inherently more attractive.

You're seriously abusing the word 'FACT' here. Now I wouldn't say it's a fact, but most of the heterosexual men I know would disagree with your statement. Part of that is because many of them are fathers, and part is because many of them don't actually think with their libido, and most importantly most heterosexual men I know are attracted to adults. This bears out in public conversation and private behavior, incidentally, so you can hardly lay the blame on the dang feminists.

Also, what exactly does 'inherently attractive' mean?

As for your statements about fertility, many men I know are in fact more attracted to women where there is no possibility of children at all. Strictly Darwinistic thinking works great for studying animals on the savanna, less capably for studying human beings where we throw in culture, religion, and social convention into the mix where 'adaptation' does not always equate to 'breeds the most'.

quote:
If on the other hand he slept with 15 year old girls (who probably chose him as well) then he really shouldn't be punished. Age of consent laws are just another way feminists want to punish normal heterosexual behavior.
15 year olds are not granted the right to make all decisions on their own, so whether or not the 15 yr old chose the 25 yr old isn't entirely relevant. As for age of consent laws being a feminist vehicle for punishing heterosexuality...yes, you're exactly right. Feminists have so much power in our society. They're the Colossus of Rhodes astride our legal system.

Are you Clive Candy?

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Dan_Frank
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Of course he's Clive Candy. That last post was the final straw nailed into the coffin that has broken the camel's back. If I could think of another appropriate metaphor off the top of my head I'd mix it in there too.

Also:

quote:
Originally posted by Earendil18:
This kind of language hijacking is absolutely detrimental to real-world solutions and makes things muddier, not clearer. Growing up Jewish, I'm also worried about the broadbrush stigmatization that's going on, and how that's eroding our rights and freedoms. It's very reminiscent of Nazi Germany, except substitute Jews and Homosexuals. Between the pedophiles and the terrorists, we're more than happy to hand our rights away it seems, whether it's airport security, the Patriot Act, or censoring the internet.

You have a point. However, I will admit that I'm a little more okay with the government trying to crack down on terrorists and pedophiles than I would be if they were cracking down on Jews and Homosexuals. Or even, say, Scientologists and Necrophiliacs. (Also, why is the colloquial term for people engaging in necrophilia "necrophiliac?" Shouldn't it be necrophile?)

At least in the case of terrorists and convicted pedophiles, you're looking at two groups who actually are dangerous predators.

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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
the age is 14 if I recall in Quebec, so age of consent laws are probably only unreasonable in the US.

It would appear the the age of consent in Canada is 16. In the US, it is determined on a state-by-state basis, and in most states, it is also 16.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
The criminalization of normal heterosexual behavior continues.

FACT: a 15 year old girl is often more inherently attractive to a heterosexual male than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old woman. In fact, a 15 year old girl is way more fertile than a 25 year old woman or a 30 year old women. It simply wouldn't make biological sense, then, for that 15 year old girl not to be inherently more attractive.

If the guy in question slept with 8 year old girls, then sure, he really is a pedophile. If on the other hand he slept with 15 year old girls (who probably chose him as well) then he really shouldn't be punished. Age of consent laws are just another way feminists want to punish normal heterosexual behavior.

Hi "Cindy Carter"

Nice to see you're already making smurf accounts to disobey your instructions not to make dickheaded, psychotic gender commentary.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
the age is 14 if I recall in Quebec, so age of consent laws are probably only unreasonable in the US.

It would appear the the age of consent in Canada is 16. In the US, it is determined on a state-by-state basis, and in most states, it is also 16.
The page I was looking at appeared to be from 1999, but there still exists a close in age exemption, so as long as your within roughly 2 years old your okay.
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
You're seriously abusing the word 'FACT' here. Now I wouldn't say it's a fact, but most of the heterosexual men I know would disagree with your statement. Part of that is because many of them are fathers, and part is because many of them don't actually think with their libido, and most importantly most heterosexual men I know are attracted to adults. This bears out in public conversation and private behavior, incidentally, so you can hardly lay the blame on the dang feminists.

I certainly agree that men would hesitate to engage in those sort of relationships. That's because it's been made a social taboo, what with the laws against it and everything. And, certainly, 15 year old women won't, on average, have fathers and mothers that would allow that sort of relationship. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen, all too easily, if we strike down the laws that forbid it.

quote:
Also, what exactly does 'inherently attractive' mean?
A 15 year old woman can often be more beautiful to men than a woman 10 or 15 years older. This is because that 15 year old is at her most fertile and that fact is being advertised full force when she's that age to heterosexual men. Certainly there are exceptions and it isn't always true but it is, on average, true.

quote:
As for your statements about fertility, many men I know are in fact more attracted to women where there is no possibility of children at all.
The men you know must love to date grandmas.

quote:
Strictly Darwinistic thinking works great for studying animals on the savanna, less capably for studying human beings where we throw in culture, religion, and social convention into the mix where 'adaptation' does not always equate to 'breeds the most'
Culture, religion and social convention are really often just ways to mitigate our Darwinian imperatives. We can look at these things and analyze them as features of the animal man that stem from his or her urge to procreate, just as we can look at features of savanna creatures and wonder similarly.
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Parkour
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Hi, Clive Candy.
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happymann
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Curious.

I recently read this article regarding teen mental development. I reflected on my own upbringing and came up with a few thoughts.

In my personal little world having sex of any kind with anyone is a big deal.

My parents had stringent rules regarding sex that I adopted.

If I hadn't adopted my parents' rules regarding sex I would have had sex as an adolescent.

If I would have had sex as an adolescent it probably wouldn't have changed my view that sex is a big deal.

Looking back at my adolescent life I am glad that I decided to adopt my parents' rules because although I would have felt at the time that sex as an adolescent was a mature and okay thing to do, my current 26 year old mind knows that my previous 15 year old mind and body was not ready for the big deal that sex actually is.

So, looking at these separate thoughts I wonder what kind of place others of you are coming from.

Is sex a big deal to you?

Was your 15 year old self ready for sex? This question, I believe, can only be more honestly answered by those of you who have grown out of adolescence (a time frame possibly difficult to pinpoint looking at this article).

Separately, I am currently an officer in the USAF. The US military has rules in place that seek to discourage people of higher rank from even dating people of lower rank than them. No matter what the ACTUAL situation is in a romantic relationship between people of drastically different rank, there is a POSSIBILITY of coercion. Because there is a possibility, there are rules in place to avoid it altogether. These civilian rules in place I believe are working on similar ideas.

Does this make sense?

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scholarette
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There is more to being a mother than fertility. A man would ideally want a woman who also would take responsibility for a baby (what with the whole helpless baby part of human development). I also am not convinced that 15 is the ideal time medically for a child. I would really like a link to a medical source. Just because it is the earliest time a woman can have a baby does not mean it is the optimal time. I have a vague memory of increased survival rates for first time mothers who were older esp in earlier times (like 19th century), but I don't care enough to find them. Now, is you want to argue 22 vs 42, sure, I'll give that to you- but 15 vs 25, I need a link.
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
There is more to being a mother than fertility. A man would ideally want a woman who also would take responsibility for a baby (what with the whole helpless baby part of human development). I also am not convinced that 15 is the ideal time medically for a child. I would really like a link to a medical source. Just because it is the earliest time a woman can have a baby does not mean it is the optimal time. I have a vague memory of increased survival rates for first time mothers who were older esp in earlier times (like 19th century), but I don't care enough to find them. Now, is you want to argue 22 vs 42, sure, I'll give that to you- but 15 vs 25, I need a link.

I don't need to provide a link showing that showing that 15 year old girls can have healthy children. If you believe that there's something medically unsound about teen mothers giving birth, you provide the link.

According to this female author, teenaged girls should be having babies:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/mar/01/women-careers-motherhood-teenage-pregnancy

quote:
"We were being educated well into our 20s, an age when some of us wanted to become mothers probably little bits of all of us wanted to become mothers You know, I was perfectly capable of setting up a home when I was 14, and if, say, it had been ordered differently, I might have thought, 'Now is the time to have a couple of children, and when I am 30 I will go back and I'll get my PhD.' But society isn't yet ordered with that kind of flexibility, and is incredibly hypocritical about teenage sex, teenage mothers and so on."

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Rakeesh
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I don't know if you're Clive Candy or not. You certainly sound like him. But if you continue sounding like him, it won't really matter much, because my reaction will be the same.

quote:

I certainly agree that men would hesitate to engage in those sort of relationships. That's because it's been made a social taboo, what with the laws against it and everything. And, certainly, 15 year old women won't, on average, have fathers and mothers that would allow that sort of relationship. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen, all too easily, if we strike down the laws that forbid it.

You're describing a host of reasons why you shouldn't have used the word 'fact', much less in all caps. Furthermore, you're describing a series of methods by which we could change what's considered attractive. If I granted your premise, why shouldn't we do that?

quote:
A 15 year old woman can often be more beautiful to men than a woman 10 or 15 years older. This is because that 15 year old is at her most fertile and that fact is being advertised full force when she's that age to heterosexual men. Certainly there are exceptions and it isn't always true but it is, on average, true.
By all means, continue begging the question. It's very persuasive.

quote:
The men you know must love to date grandmas.
Yes, because the two settings for female age are mid-teens and grandma.

quote:
Culture, religion and social convention are really often just ways to mitigate our Darwinian imperatives. We can look at these things and analyze them as features of the animal man that stem from his or her urge to procreate, just as we can look at features of savanna creatures and wonder similarly.
Given that you feel that way, why this importance placed on adhering to Darwinian imperatives?
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

You're describing a host of reasons why you shouldn't have used the word 'fact', much less in all caps. Furthermore, you're describing a series of methods by which we could change what's considered attractive.

But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that. We can, however, forbid men from pursuing females of the ages 13 - 17 who strike them as gorgeous. Society does this because men with daughters can't stomach the idea of their daughters in those ages dating older men, so the rational thing to do becomes forbidding all men from doing it. But older men dating/marrying/sexing teenaged girls is something that all too well fits with human nature.

quote:
By all means, continue begging the question. It's very persuasive.
There is no question to beg. I'm presenting a possible, biological reason why teenaged girls are more attractive than women in their twenties or older. You are free to present a counter theory.

quote:
Yes, because the two settings for female age are mid-teens and grandma.
You are the one who said "many men I know are in fact more attracted to women where there is no possibility of children at all." It follows that they must love grandmas. If I shouldn't have said your male friends have a thing for grandmas, then you shouldn't have said they like women that can't bear children.

quote:
Given that you feel that way, why this importance placed on adhering to Darwinian imperatives?
Because I think sometimes adhering to our biological programming in these matters results in happier human beings.
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scholarette
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

[QUOTE] By all means, continue begging the question. It's very persuasive.

There is no question to beg. I'm presenting a possible, biological reason why teenaged girls are more attractive than women in their twenties or older. You are free to present a counter theory.

You have not shown that teenage girls are more attractive to men- just that your hypothetical man is. You also have not demonstrated that a 15 year old is more fertile and more likely to produce a healthy child either. They are certainly capable of doing so- however that is not the same as being optimal, which is what you have claimed.
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malanthrop
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I'm not at all attracted to high school girls. I wont deny on occasion seeing one from behind and thinking wow - that's nice, but when I see the young face I am immediately dissuaded. Perhaps that's a learned behavior, but I doubt it. I had sex with a 13 year old once....when I was 14. Are those memories pedophillic (probably not a word) and if I had it on tape, would it be child pornography? But of course back then, college girls looked like women and a 25 year old woman looked old. Today, my wife's graying "highlights" are beautiful to me. We started dating when she was 18, now she's 37 and I am no less attracted to her. In fact, she looks like a woman not a kid, which to me is even better. I suppose in another 20 years, I'll like liver spots. [Smile]
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
I'm not at all attracted to high school girls. I wont deny on occasion seeing one from behind and thinking wow - that's nice, but when I see the young face I am immediately dissuaded. Perhaps that's a learned behavior, but I doubt it. I had sex with a 13 year old once....when I was 14. Are those memories pedophillic (probably not a word) and if I had it on tape, would it be child pornography? But of course back then, college girls looked like women and a 25 year old woman looked old. Today, my wife's graying "highlights" are beautiful to me. We started dating when she was 18, now she's 37 and I am no less attracted to her. In fact, she looks like a woman not a kid, which to me is even better. I suppose in another 20 years, I'll like liver spots. [Smile]

The important thing is that you were dating her when she was 18. You have imprinted in your mind the memories of her when she was younger and more attractive. Your feelings about her graying features would be different all together if you had met her just two years ago.

quote:
You also have not demonstrated that a 15 year old is more fertile and more likely to produce a healthy child either.
Female fertility is pretty much the same from the ages of 13 to 25. In this window, women are at their most fertile years. The point is that a 15 year old can easily produce children. I suspect that men might be programmed to find teen-aged girls more attractive due to the greater likelihood of teen-aged girls being unattached.

Studies measuring how men rate female attractiveness seem to only start from the ages of 18 years and up, fyi.

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malanthrop
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There's not much imprinted in my mind about how she looked. I was indifferent to her looks at that time. I thought she was a cool decent looking girl. Now she's a beautiful woman. Fortunately, the acne she had hasn't been permanently imprinted on how I view her.

If we got a divorce, I wouldn't start trolling the college campus or local high school for a girlfriend. I admire the graceful older woman and the fit mother. The sexy 18 year old is like unripened fruit. I have an inside joke about my wife....I didn't marry her until she was 25 in order to weigh out the fat potential. The sexiest high school girls often end up being the nastiest later on. Being a voluptuous 15 year old is a sign of bad things to come. All women have their moment and during that moment they may be amazingly attractive...I like women with staying power. I've seen pictures of my wife from high school. Believe me, I wouldn't have given her a second glance.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:

The men you know must love to date grandmas.

I geuss the whispering 'MILF' in your ear would make you brain explode.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that.

Piffle. One word for you: Rubenesque.
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malanthrop
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A MILF isn't hot for being an attractive woman who surprisingly has a child. A MILF is attractive for the same reasons all women are attractive, their apparent good genes. With a MILF, there is proof of good genes via the child. She had a child and is still fit. Many mothers go to waste like depleted soil. I wouldn't buy a farm for one good crop.

My mom told me to look at the mother to see how the girl will end up.

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SoaPiNuReYe
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
My concern with SoaPiNuReYe's statement was that he offered as evidence that she wasn't raped the fast that she consented to go upstairs with his friend and that she was not injured. Neither of these facts have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not she was raped. If a man considers those two factors part of a woman's consent, he is wrong. And the fact that so many men consider those factors part of judging whether a woman was raped is an extremely upsetting acpect of modern society.

I think false accusations of rape are horrible and any woman who does that is pretty awful. However, I would not agree that it is the same level of horribleness as an actual rape. Both are horrible, but not equivalent.

See, I feel like if you go home with a stranger after a night of partying/clubbing then you are asking for something, and I can understand how a guy may interpret that as a one night stand and how a woman may just be interested in him or something like that. I'm not saying that I lean one way or the other, because honestly I can see both points of view and it leaves me conflicted as to what is right. Are you saying that if a woman sleeps with a stranger and then regrets it the next morning that it is rape? Or does it matter more what occurs in the actual moment?

And I have to disagree with your last point there, because imo both instances involve drastic life altering moments for the people involved. The girl's case is self-explanatory and in the guy's case it could easily lead to jail time which shuts a lot of doors for him in the future, not to mention all of the horrible things that occur in jail. They're equally as bad in my eyes, and the same would be true for pretty much every crime.

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sinflower
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quote:
My concern with SoaPiNuReYe's statement was that he offered as evidence that she wasn't raped the fast that she consented to go upstairs with his friend and that she was not injured. Neither of these facts have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not she was raped. If a man considers those two factors part of a woman's consent, he is wrong. And the fact that so many men consider those factors part of judging whether a woman was raped is an extremely upsetting acpect of modern society.
This, exactly. Thank you for saying it so concisely. I was struggling with how to phrase the same thoughts.

quote:
Are you saying that if a woman sleeps with a stranger and then regrets it the next morning that it is rape?
It's rape is a woman says "no" to penetration, and the man penetrates anyway. No matter what came before. The end.

Of course it's not rape if a woman consents and then lies about it later. But in the story you provided, your "evidence" for the woman lying was that she said yes to going upstairs, and she was not physically hurt. That is not evidence that she lied, at all. It's troubling that some would think so.

quote:
They're equally as bad in my eyes, and the same would be true for pretty much every crime.
Wait. You're saying all crimes are equally bad in your eyes? Please clarify.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that.

Piffle. One word for you: Rubenesque.
Yep. In a sea of bullshit, this "fact" still stinks to high heaven.
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malanthrop
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What about a woman who doesn't remember saying yes? That same woman might have begged for it and enjoyed it while drunk but would never have done it sober. She wakes up and can't remember what she did but is convinced she would never do it.

I was told about fights I had been in that I couldn't remember. I didn't consider my sore jaw to be proof of a mugging.

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Jenos
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First off, why are people attacking Soapinureye's example about the woman being taken upstairs? The actual transpiring of the event is unimportant, as long as we know of cases like that(which do exist). There are women out there who falsely file such charges, and get away with it because of the nature of the system, which was the point Soap was trying to show. Whether or not the event happened in the way he said it, or if it happened at all doesn't matter.

On the issue of teenage attractiveness, Cindy would likely use evolutionary psychology to back up the idea that we find such women attractive(some of this stuff can be hinted at in books like The Moral Animal, though I don't know of any specific citation). Using that it can quite clearly be seen why it would have been an effective trait for men to view younger women to be, on average, more attractive. That said, we are not purely driven by our evolutionary impulses. Many traits that have some bearing in our ancestral past are also traits that have heavy environmental associations. In the case of attractiveness, we are taught that looking at a young teenager is not attractive.

The problem that does arise, however, is when that teenager starts trying to make herself look older and more attractive. I would hazard that the prime attractiveness age for Americans is in the 18-25 range(which can be supported by the fact that most women involved in adult films are of that age), but there is also social pressure on 14/15/16 year olds to look like they are 18, because the boys they are with are also taught that 18 year olds are attractive.

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sinflower
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quote:
First off, why are people attacking Soapinureye's example about the woman being taken upstairs?
Because he brought up details like "but she didn't look physically injured" as if that is at all relevant to whether she was raped or not. There's a dangerous stereotype that if a woman doesn't physically fight off a man, she is consenting to sex. That is not true. Now that we understand the human response to fear and danger better, we know that shock and temporary paralysis is an extremely common response to attack. Many women feel unnecessarily guilty for "not having fought him off" while they were being raped, never mind that not attempting to fight is perhaps the best survival strategy in such a situation. We don't need to further perpetuate the stereotype that a woman not physically fighting off a man, and therefore not sustaining physical injuries, means that she necessarily consented to sex.

If Soap had just mentioned that false rape accusations are a problem, that would've been fine. I agree with that.

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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
What about a woman who doesn't remember saying yes? That same woman might have begged for it and enjoyed it while drunk but would never have done it sober. She wakes up and can't remember what she did but is convinced she would never do it.

I was told about fights I had been in that I couldn't remember. I didn't consider my sore jaw to be proof of a mugging.

I've never heard a guy use the phrase "begging for it" who wasn't a massive douchebag. I don't think it's coincidental. I think you might be a massive douchebag, supported by two days of reading your intellectual dishonesty and willful ignorance.

Nobody here supports false accusations of rape, whether based on shame or not. But we have no idea how far Soap's example was willing to go. Say she consented to oral sex, but wanted to save her virginity. Is it still rape to you, or does going upstairs mean she's given up all rights to her body?

Seriously dude, you seem to be a huge douchebag in nearly every thread I've read. Work on it.

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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that.

Piffle. One word for you: Rubenesque.
Was Ruben's taste in thick girls representative of the taste of all the males from his era/culture?

It's a myth that really fat girls were ever more prized than regular chicks.

Maybe Ruben was afraid of offending the church, so he painted pictures of women that wouldn't arouse men.

Standard male preference remains consistent despite prevailing fashion. For instance, gay men control the fashion industry and they tend promote androgynous looking girls that are what they see themselves as/fantasize they could be. Nonetheless, men don't really desire androgynous looking females all that much. (By the way, it is these gay males who control the fashion that single-handedly are responsible for the pressure which pop culture puts on women/girls to be thin.)

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
A MILF isn't hot for being an attractive woman who surprisingly has a child. A MILF is attractive for the same reasons all women are attractive, their apparent good genes. With a MILF, there is proof of good genes via the child. She had a child and is still fit. Many mothers go to waste like depleted soil. I wouldn't buy a farm for one good crop.

My mom told me to look at the mother to see how the girl will end up.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic

quote:

What about a woman who doesn't remember saying yes? That same woman might have begged for it and enjoyed it while drunk but would never have done it sober. She wakes up and can't remember what she did but is convinced she would never do it.

I was told about fights I had been in that I couldn't remember. I didn't consider my sore jaw to be proof of a mugging.

I bet that's not the only reason why you 'jaw' is 'sore'. *evil laugh*
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AvidReader
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Ok, fertility. A quick, little effort involved Google search gives me early to mid 20s as peak fertility. Which is funny; I'd always heard 28 was some kind of magic number.

Now for the Shakespearean angle. How long do you wait to not "mar those so early made"? That one's trickier to track down since it's mosly sites telling women they're not in much more danger after 35 than they would have been earlier.

But the March of Dimes does have some numbers on teen pregnancy.

quote:
Most teenage births (about 67 percent) are to girls ages 18 and 19.
quote:
Teen mothers are more likely than mothers over age 20 to give birth prematurely (before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy). Between 2003 and 2005, preterm birth rates averaged 14.5 percent for women under age 20 compared to 11.9 percent for women ages 20 to 29. Babies born prematurely face an increased risk of newborn health problems, long-term disabilities and even death.
quote:
A teenage mother is at greater risk than women over age 20 for pregnancy complications, such as premature labor, anemia and high blood pressure. These risks are even greater for teens who are under 15 years old.
quote:
Babies of teenage mothers are more likely to die in the first year of life than babies of women in their twenties and thirties. The risk is highest for babies of mothers under age 15.
If pregnancy becomes dramatically safer for mother and baby after 20, following your logic, Clive, women should become dramatically more attractive to men between 20 and 25.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that.

Piffle. One word for you: Rubenesque.
Was Ruben's taste in thick girls representative of the taste of all the males from his era/culture?

It's a myth that really fat girls were ever more prized than regular chicks.

Maybe Ruben was afraid of offending the church, so he painted pictures of women that wouldn't arouse men.

Standard male preference remains consistent despite prevailing fashion. For instance, gay men control the fashion industry and they tend promote androgynous looking girls that are what they see themselves as/fantasize they could be. Nonetheless, men don't really desire androgynous looking females all that much. (By the way, it is these gay males who control the fashion that single-handedly are responsible for the pressure which pop culture puts on women/girls to be thin.)

Once again, a total load of crap. It is well known, and easy to verify, that men's taste in women have changed here in the US in a mere 200 years. Over longer periods of time and geographical area the changes become even easier to see, unless you have an agenda.

I could post a ton of links showing the trends, but it wouldn't matter. I could use a ton of examples, but I doubt you have the class of intellect to understand even the most basic of them, Clive.

The facts don't interest you. This is just another thread meant to stir up crap, and it is based on nothing more than your own skewed view of the world.

One more thing.....reported. You DO know they can track IP numbers, right?

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Darth_Mauve
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Cindy argues: Evolution demands that we see the most fertile women as the most attractive. A 15 year old girl is most fertile. Hence such women should be fair game for men of any age.

Everyone seems to be arguing the first point, that evolution demands men seek out the most fertile women as attractive, or they argue the second part, that 15 year old girls are the most fertile.

But there is a missing step in between--how do men know what girls/women are the most fertile?

Is there some kind of genetic memory?

If I was looking for fertility as the best marker of attractiveness I would not be looking for some young, inexperienced woman with a waist too thin to deliver children easily. I would be looking for an older woman with wide hips who has already delivered a child--who has proven her fertility.

There is a real reason to prefer girls to women. It is the idea that such a young woman has had limited or preferably no experience. Why would a man want a woman untrained in sex?

I think its either because such woman are easier to guide and control, or because there is an ownership idea--if you are her first, she is yours forever, or the man's own self-confidence in his skill and physical attributes are so low he only dares demonstrate them to someone with nothing else to compare them to.

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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by AvidReader:
Ok, fertility. A quick, little effort involved Google search gives me early to mid 20s as peak fertility. Which is funny; I'd always heard 28 was some kind of magic number.

Now for the Shakespearean angle. How long do you wait to not "mar those so early made"? That one's trickier to track down since it's mosly sites telling women they're not in much more danger after 35 than they would have been earlier.

But the March of Dimes does have some numbers on teen pregnancy.

quote:
Most teenage births (about 67 percent) are to girls ages 18 and 19.
quote:
Teen mothers are more likely than mothers over age 20 to give birth prematurely (before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy). Between 2003 and 2005, preterm birth rates averaged 14.5 percent for women under age 20 compared to 11.9 percent for women ages 20 to 29. Babies born prematurely face an increased risk of newborn health problems, long-term disabilities and even death.
quote:
A teenage mother is at greater risk than women over age 20 for pregnancy complications, such as premature labor, anemia and high blood pressure. These risks are even greater for teens who are under 15 years old.
quote:
Babies of teenage mothers are more likely to die in the first year of life than babies of women in their twenties and thirties. The risk is highest for babies of mothers under age 15.
If pregnancy becomes dramatically safer for mother and baby after 20, following your logic, Clive, women should become dramatically more attractive to men between 20 and 25.

I've come across these same statistics. Have they controlled for socioeconomic factors? Because teen mothers tend to overwhelmingly come from the same economic stratum (working class.)
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
But we have not changed what's considered attractive. We can't change something like that.

Piffle. One word for you: Rubenesque.
Was Ruben's taste in thick girls representative of the taste of all the males from his era/culture?

It's a myth that really fat girls were ever more prized than regular chicks.

Maybe Ruben was afraid of offending the church, so he painted pictures of women that wouldn't arouse men.

Standard male preference remains consistent despite prevailing fashion. For instance, gay men control the fashion industry and they tend promote androgynous looking girls that are what they see themselves as/fantasize they could be. Nonetheless, men don't really desire androgynous looking females all that much. (By the way, it is these gay males who control the fashion that single-handedly are responsible for the pressure which pop culture puts on women/girls to be thin.)

Once again, a total load of crap. It is well known, and easy to verify, that men's taste in women have changed here in the US in a mere 200 years. Over longer periods of time and geographical area the changes become even easier to see, unless you have an agenda.

I could post a ton of links showing the trends, but it wouldn't matter. I could use a ton of examples, but I doubt you have the class of intellect to understand even the most basic of them, Clive.

The facts don't interest you. This is just another thread meant to stir up crap, and it is based on nothing more than your own skewed view of the world.

One more thing.....reported. You DO know they can track IP numbers, right?

Please provide the links showing that fat/thick women were ever in demand over regular or thin looking women. Thanks! (If you're going to provide paintings of Reuben, you need to show that a taste for thick women was extant and not merely the forte of artists who may have had a motive to not paint really attractive women.)
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
Cindy argues: Evolution demands that we see the most fertile women as the most attractive. A 15 year old girl is most fertile. Hence such women should be fair game for men of any age.

Everyone seems to be arguing the first point, that evolution demands men seek out the most fertile women as attractive, or they argue the second part, that 15 year old girls are the most fertile.

But there is a missing step in between--how do men know what girls/women are the most fertile?

Is there some kind of genetic memory?

Does the peafowl have a genetic memory that attracts it to the plumage of the peacock?
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Raymond Arnold
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I'm pretty sure the preference for young girls is related to the common preference for virgins, which has to do with making sure that the child born is YOUR child. (This ties in with something someone said earlier, about older women tending to be "taken.") People with a preference for younger women have a slight advantage in terms of likelihood of producing a child that is actually theirs, which is certainly the sort of thing evolution would select for. (It's not the ONLY way to ensure the child is yours, so the preference isn't necessarily universal, but it's a legitimate "evolutionary niche").
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Lalo
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My dad once mentioned that as he grew older, his preference for women grew older. i.e., he had little interest in the teenagers I dated when I was a teenager, but would appreciate their mom's phone numbers.

The same seems to be true of me. I'm entering my mid-twenties now, and to walk around a college campus is to look at babies. I can't imagine dating anyone younger than 21. We're just in different worlds.

If "Cindy Carter," who seems to be a pervy dude, is older than me and still has a preference for 15 year old girls... he has problems.

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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I'm pretty sure the preference for young girls is related to the common preference for virgins, which has to do with making sure that the child born is YOUR child. (This ties in with something someone said earlier, about older women tending to be "taken.") People with a preference for younger women have a slight advantage in terms of likelihood of producing a child that is actually theirs, which is certainly the sort of thing evolution would select for. (It's not the ONLY way to ensure the child is yours, so the preference isn't necessarily universal, but it's a legitimate "evolutionary niche").

This. The point is, it's possible that a male's pleasure centers in the brain get more activated when mating the younger the female is.
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Cindy Carter
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quote:
Originally posted by Lalo:
My dad once mentioned that as he grew older, his preference for women grew older. i.e., he had little interest in the teenagers I dated when I was a teenager, but would appreciate their mom's phone numbers.

Did your dad have the option of continuing to date women significantly younger than himself?
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Cindy Carter
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A consequence of the height of women's beauty/fertility being at the ages of 13 - 25 is that there is a shortage of desirable women, because not only are women 13 - 25 being competed for by their male peers but also by all the men older than that age group. This is why women in this age bracket seem more mature than their male peers -- they must have that social maturity in order to contend with that greater number of potential suitors.
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Samprimary
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Don't argue with Clive. Sit back and wait for him to get banned.
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Sean Monahan
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Is it bad that I miss Thor?
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AvidReader
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From Wiki:

quote:
The average age of menarche in the United States is about 12.5 years. In postmenarchal girls, about 80% of the cycles were anovulatory in the first year after menarche, 50% in the third and 10% in the sixth year.
So girls don't even reach average fertility until 18.
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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Lalo:
[QUOTE]I've never heard a guy use the phrase "begging for it" who wasn't a massive douchebag. I don't think it's coincidental

I didn't say "begging for it" like a rapist who uses her skirt length to justify rape. Begging for it, enjoying it,...without memory. I still "beg for more" from the woman I've been married to for over a decade.

"Begging for it" in the context I used was no different than saying "don't stop". The problem is, a women might not remember saying "don't stop" and wake up accusing rape.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
A consequence of the height of women's beauty/fertility being at the ages of 13 - 25 is that there is a shortage of desirable women, because not only are women 13 - 25 being competed for by their male peers but also by all the men older than that age group. This is why women in this age bracket seem more mature than their male peers -- they must have that social maturity in order to contend with that greater number of potential suitors.

Link?

For ANY of your so called facts?


I didn't think so.

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Kwea
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Marie Cassatt and Johannes Vermeer, Paul Gauguin, Jean-Auguste-Dominique Ingres, Edouard Manet, Auguste Renoir, and of course Ruben. Just to name a few.

NONE of their paintings fit todays standard of beauty, as you describe it, yet all were leading artists who depicted women in world famous paintings representing the standard of beauty of their time.

That doesn't even go into the various standards that exist TODAY, from area to area, country to country.


Some of them painted flat chested women who looked like boys....a very popular look in Fitzgerald's day.....some of them painted plump women, celebrating women that would not be considered attractive in todays world....and some of them actually painted very plump women, because it was a sign of health and wealth to be able to eat that well.

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AvidReader
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quote:
Originally posted by Cindy Carter:
I've come across these same statistics. Have they controlled for socioeconomic factors? Because teen mothers tend to overwhelmingly come from the same economic stratum (working class.) [/QB]

Good question and tough to track down. Assuming there's not much socioeconomic variation in sub-Saharan Africa, I may have found one.

NIH

quote:
Childbearing at young ages has been associated with pregnancy-induced high blood pressure, anemia and hemorrhage, obstructed and prolonged labor, infection, and higher rates of infant morbidity and mortality.
It's tricky to pin down because teen pregnancy seems to correlate strongly to lower socioeconomic position and lack of education in every country. Then it doesn't help that in many cultures, girls are kicked out of school and denied medical care for being unwed mothers.
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SoaPiNuReYe
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quote:
Originally posted by sinflower:
quote:
My concern with SoaPiNuReYe's statement was that he offered as evidence that she wasn't raped the fast that she consented to go upstairs with his friend and that she was not injured. Neither of these facts have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not she was raped. If a man considers those two factors part of a woman's consent, he is wrong. And the fact that so many men consider those factors part of judging whether a woman was raped is an extremely upsetting acpect of modern society.
This, exactly. Thank you for saying it so concisely. I was struggling with how to phrase the same thoughts.

quote:
Are you saying that if a woman sleeps with a stranger and then regrets it the next morning that it is rape?
It's rape is a woman says "no" to penetration, and the man penetrates anyway. No matter what came before. The end.

Of course it's not rape if a woman consents and then lies about it later. But in the story you provided, your "evidence" for the woman lying was that she said yes to going upstairs, and she was not physically hurt. That is not evidence that she lied, at all. It's troubling that some would think so.

quote:
They're equally as bad in my eyes, and the same would be true for pretty much every crime.
Wait. You're saying all crimes are equally bad in your eyes? Please clarify.

I meant that knowingly falsely accusing someone of a crime and committing the crime are equally as bad in my opinion, no matter what crime was supposedly committed. Please read more closely.

As for people saying that I used the fact that the girl showed no signs of physical abuse in my anecdote as evidence that she wasn't raped, I simply added that in there as an afterthought because I figured that maybe someone would ask if she looked hurt at all. Read my post again, maybe you just misinterpreted what I meant to say (Or maybe I just wrote poorly, it was pretty late at night). But even taking what you interpreted my post as saying into account, I think it is unfair of you to imply that was part of my evidence for consent, when I did not take sides, I merely presented facts. I understand the natural reaction to become angry or sensitive when rape is brought up, but as a person who both knows people who have made false rape allegations and people whose lives have been ruined because of it, my approach is to always take a step back and look at the facts.

In the story, the girl did not say no to the man, even when he asked her 'Are you too drunk for this?'. I am not saying that I support that type of behavior, I am simply stating the fact that often times the lines as to what constitutes rape can at times be very gray. No shit, if someone says 'no' and they do it anyway of course it is rape, but what if they don't say no? What if they freeze up or get scared and just stay silent the whole time and go with it? Believe it or not, this happens more than you think.

The point I was trying to make is this: It's almost always one person's word versus another's in a rape case, and as a result a lot of men have been wrongly sent to jail, a lot of lives have been ruined, and a lot of rapists have been left walking the streets because or mistaken identity or whatnot but I guess you guys missed it.

[ March 22, 2010, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: SoaPiNuReYe ]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
What if they freeze up or get scared and just stay silent the whole time or go with it?
I don't know about you, but I would be turned completely off within a second if a girl I was intending to have sex with, had frozen up or stayed silent the whole time. Even if it happened after she had peeled the necessary articles of clothing off.

I think it's universally true, that if one partner is simply letting the other get off, you have an ethical obligation to stop trying to have sex with them.

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