posted
So this last month I've been busy arranging a lease of a new flat that I will sublet out to a couple of renters and stay in myself. It's a small flat on the edge of the city in a quiet neighborhood- not a pretty one, but quiet, and reasonably convenient to the center by metro and tram. The rent is also less than half what I pay now, and I could use the extra.
So anyway, it's been a terrible time wrangling people to come and see the place, arranging with the landlord to view the rooms, having people waver and then not take the place, or say they will and then not call back, or in one case try to scam me with fake travelers checks (that was an interesting one- I would have had to be pretty stupid to buy it though).
So far I've got one renter who's scottish, and the other (third) room lies empty, and has to be filled by the end of the month, or I start paying the full rent- the landlord gave me an extra two weeks to fill the room before I have to start paying it. I know I can find somebody in two weeks for this price, but I've been getting really weak responses so far to my adds.
So anyway, I posted the add a third time friday night, and immediately got a call from an obviously African sounding guy I could only marginally understand. Without thinking, I told him the room had been filled.
Now, understand a few things about this particular situation: most black Africans in this city are not legally employed. The government will not grant them visas or work permits, so the ones who are here are here illegally, in the majority of cases. Also, the landlord would **** a brick if I rented a room to an African, and the neighbors in the building wouldn't have it. Czechs are racists, but on the other hand they have no particular reason to trust Africans, who are by dint of government policy almost always here illegally, and often involved in either drug trafficking, or pimping. So the idea of having the guy in the flat is right out. No way.
So I post the ad again today, and this time he must have seen it again, and texted me, again, with the same message: he wants to see the flat. He stated in the message that he was African. I politely texted back explaining that the landlord was not willing to rent to non-EU/Shengen citizens. The poor guy must get rejected out of hand everywhere he calls. And who knows what he does for a living- he could possibly be legit, or want to be legit. There are small numbers of Africans who arrive legally. But on the other hand, I am well aware that the landlord and the neighbors will not have an African in their building. Simply will not. We had trouble last year for renting a room in our old flat to a Portuguese guy because he looked like a gypsy- and this guy makes 5 times as much money as I do.
So anyway, that's just me venting. I feel like a heel because I don't have the energy, and in truth I don't have the inclination, to even hear the guy out. Maybe it's that I have shown the flat to plenty of people who turned out unreliable (or downright out to screw me), but whatever it is, I am doing something I don't think a younger idealistic me would be proud of here. Granted, that's not the me that hasn't seen a black face in 18 months that wasn't looking to sell him drugs or a prostitute, or hopefully both, or just rob me, but it sucks anyway. I met a black English guy in my local Chinese restaurant a few months ago, and the waitress was so suspicious of him that I had to explain to her in Czech that he was English, not African, and that he had a real job (he was a programmer, as I recall). That barely mollified her, and when it turned out the guy had to go around the corner to the ATM, I got an idea of what it's like to be a black person anywhere in Central Europe- you should have seen the open distrust on their faces. And these are people who would have let me take out dinner and come back the next night and pay if I didn't have cash on me, because I'm white and speak Czech with an American accent.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Wow that sucks. All the Africans I know are stand up people, hard-working, resilient, kind, wonderful people you'd love to be related to. The kind of people who treat everyone like family. It breaks my heart to hear you describe this situation there. Where are you? In Prague?
Obviously all Africans aren't anything in particular, same as all whites or all Martians. They're all individuals. It seems horrible to just judge someone by their place of origin. Can you really bring yourself to do that? Why not talk to the fellow and check his credentials at least? It can't hurt. How would you feel trying to find a place to live in a city where nobody wanted you before they even got to know you?
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Well, the thing in this particular case is it wouldn't matter what his credentials were. He wouldn't be allowed to move in anyway.
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Wow. That really sucks. If the landlord really wouldn't even consider the guy I don't know that you've got much to feel guilty for, as it sounds like you don't have a lot of options yourself.
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Just wondering, is this how they feel about all non-white people in central Europe, or just about Africans?
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Good question. They are a little more sanguine about Asians, particularly rich Asians like the Japanese, or South Koreans. They are tolerant of the Vietnamese particularly because they constitute a large part of the convenient store market and are seen as entrepreneurs and former allies of the Czechs from back in the communist days- having been moderate as communists go. They also tolerate Indians and dark skinned Russians as long as they are not Roma or middle eastern looking. The Czechs hate gypsies nearly universally, although the younger people have broader attitudes. Not that they have no reason to fear Gypsies either- the ones who live in cities are often dirty, antisocial, don't work (or can't get jobs or education) and are often up to some scam or another. That's not just perception- that's a real problem here, but it's not one that the Czechs are entirely optimistic about solving. Back in the communist days the Roma people were relocated to projects by the government and stripped of their rights to travel as nomads, as they had for centuries before. Many of them were transported to Siberia or murdered by the soviets, and the others were poorly treated. They were placed in cement block apartment buildings which they would burn down by lighting camp fires in the living rooms- there are now whole villages of shelled out hulks where these projects used to be, and where the gypsies now live in camps.
There is just really a shocking lack of education regarding race in this country, and many or most teachers hold the same attitudes as the parents and the government, meaning nobody is going to give these people, even if they are citizens, much of a chance. I have met some open minded teachers who grouse about the problems, and about how they have such a hard time teaching gypsy kids if only because no matter how good they are as students, they are not taught to bathe properly nor to speak Czech well by their parents, meaning they are singularly disadvantaged in any school, if only by their home life.
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posted
Coming from LA, I can understand the attitudes. It's REALLY easy for us to be self-righteous about how terrible racism is, but things change when you actually live in these neighborhoods.
I'm not excusing the racism, but I do understand it. Gypsies are perpetual thieves and beggars, and those who aren't don't tend to be gypsies. Muslims (in Europe) are often poorly educated and violent against immodest women. Africans, same thing. And the black market is often their only available employer. If I lived there, I'd take a harder look at an African roommate than I would at a Czech roommate.
North America tends to be much better integrated than Europe, though, so we really can't understand how large the gap is between minorities and white Czechs.
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posted
Thank you for posting this, Ori....I know you are taking a chance posting it, as some people might attack you on this.
I had no idea how much of a problem this is over there, and what the prevailing attitude was, so I learned something today.
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I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas. We have a large African population here in Phoenix, mostly refugee's and seem to stay out of trouble quite well compared to the rest of us here. But I cant get past how rude they are, I assume it is simply the culture differance but I am used to people looking at me when they speak to me.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas.
posted
From my studies on the subject, it appears that you should never offend gypsies because they will put a curse on you which will condemn your soul to hell or if you don't have a soul, they will give you a soul and condemn you to a lot of brooding.
posted
LOL...and you get to sleep with a hot 23 year old who pretend to still be in high school.....
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas. We have a large African population here in Phoenix, mostly refugee's and seem to stay out of trouble quite well compared to the rest of us here. But I cant get past how rude they are, I assume it is simply the culture differance but I am used to people looking at me when they speak to me.
When I went to Albania to visit my wife's parents they warned me of gypsies. They are made fun of there, and you always hear off color jokes about them. I saw quite a few of them at their outdoor bazaar / swapmeet. I was told to keep my hands in my pockets and on my wallet because it could get stolen.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas.
I should emphasize that "Gypsy" in the context I am using it is to describe the Roma people who inhabit parts of Central and Eastern Europe, as well as parts of Iberia, and can be found throughout the Eurasian supercontinent in small clusters, having migrated originally centuries ago from somewhere in Persia. They are citizens of their respective countries in most cases, but are second-class citizens in practice. I am not talking about just any group of wanderers- these are people with a diaspora as large as the Jews, and with no homeland or political power or even usually a unifying language to tie them together.
ETA: That said I have taught Roma kids, and recall one in particular who was very bright. Her primary teacher was a gay man who was very concerned about her future, because he felt she had a lot of potential, even coming from a crowded downtown school without much of a reputation. He had been in a long relationship with a Roma man and was sensitive to the situation, but that kind of understanding is rare. Many semi-privates (think charter schools) will simply not accept gypsies because they want to avoid all potential social problems, of which there can genuinely be many. The political situation of the Roma in this country allows such open prejudice to continue as it has since communist times, which is a testament to the monumental failure of the Czech government to address the crimes of the Soviets and their collaborators since the revolution. Aside from aggressively seeking out and punishing criminals from those days, the Czechs continue to do practically nothing to address the abominable situation of housing, education, and work for minority peoples. They take a hands-off attitude to a problem that was created by the very hands-on, and very stupid communists and their shills.
So I've now gotten about 5 emails from different "people" all asking about the room, all saying they are African. Judging from the very uniform content and syntax of the messages, and the fact that they are being sent en masse to more people than just me, I'm getting the sense that this is actually a phishing scam, and not a serious enslought of Africans looking for rooms in the city. So frustrating.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas.
>_<
Lovely.
Indeed. Romany people are fascinating. They have been persecuted for ages and many were killed during the Holocaust. I don't even know how one can begin to challenge such... racism...
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posted
I think AchillesHeel might have been saying, "I've never met a gypsy, but I still know I'm not supposed to trust them." Of course, if I'm wrong, then folks are right in expressing criticism.
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Slight correction there, Romani, so as not to confuse the people with Romanians, is the preferred nomenclature- The Roma People is also more current. They have little to do with Romanians, who have inhabited their homeland for three millenia, and moved into the European subcontinent at around the same time as Slavic and Germanic peoples.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I was refering to the traveling gypsies, I have heard stories about a large group that passes through Arizona once in a while. Especially working in a conveniance store, stories permeate through the company about the family allowing the little kids to run around the store and stuff whatever they can into thier pockets, adults who would open a starbucks frappacino and pour it into a coffee cup and pay for a small coffee all while the men or older women divert your attention so they can make off with whatever food they can. This isnt to say that I dont have to watch anyone and everyone for theft its just that I never hear positive things about gypsies, we dont even have jokes or lessons to make south-westerners hate them, as a matter of fact I just itterated what I have heard about gypsies, aside from The HunchBack of NotreDame. I just know not to trust them, but I dont trust anyone anyway so there isnt much discrimination there.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
AH- you don't have a decent idea of what we're talking about here. "Gypsy" wanderers and Roma people are related in name only, most of the time. We're talking about an Ethnic group that is spread through central Europe. You're talking about something pretty different- the name is the same because Gypsy has come to mean "traveller" or "vagabond" in American English. That doesn't make it the same thing.
In the same way that a "Sherpa" is not a "porter," a "gypsy" in common parlance in America is not a "Rom." Please drop it, if all you want to talk about is Southwestern grifters. That's not this discussion.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: AH- you don't have a decent idea of what we're talking about here. "Gypsy" wanderers and Roma people are related in name only, most of the time. We're talking about an Ethnic group that is spread through central Europe. You're talking about something pretty different- the name is the same because Gypsy has come to mean "traveller" or "vagabond" in American English. That doesn't make it the same thing.
In the same way that a "Sherpa" is not a "porter," a "gypsy" in common parlance in America is not a "Rom." Please drop it, if all you want to talk about is Southwestern grifters. That's not this discussion.
I was just reading more about the Romany. There is a good sized Romani population in the US and all around the world. They sure do suffer a lot of descrimination and torment to this day. Tragic.
Also I probably should not visit the Czechs, due to my blackness. It's a bit unfair to paint a whole group of people as beggers and thieves and harsh too.
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quote:I have never knowingly met a Gypsie, but I do know not to trust them, that is just too old a stereotype that it will never be much of a faux pas.
I uh
hate to break this to you but
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posted
You don't have to be Roma to be offended by that.. Urg, what is up with the world and people who are the slightest bit brown in complexion?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Also I probably should not visit the Czechs, due to my blackness. It's a bit unfair to paint a whole group of people as beggers and thieves and harsh too.
You *might* be surprised actually. It's a schizophrenic attitude they have about foreigners- it's not exactly racism, per se. Americans, even blacks, are treated here like a kind of honored over-class. Most people are flattered to be host to Americans and the English, and regard them as worldly and privileged of birth. That goes for blacks as well I think, as long as they have a chance to hear you speak. People will actually go pretty far out of their way often times to accommodate Americans because they are seen as being, perhaps (and this is a tricky characterization) above the day-to-day problems of Czechs. This is more apparent in business than on the streets, of course.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: The family is from Central Europe, sorry to have offended you apperantly.
Not just him, BTW. Pretty much anyone with Roma blood.
I supposedly have Roma blood, but such a small amount as to make the fact academic. I have a slight epicanthic fold that my grandfather and mother, and one of my little sisters have as well. Family lore says that he was 1/16th Romani, but again the truth of that has such a wide margin of error as to make the notion entirely speculative.
ETA: Reason for the lost history being that my Grandfather was an adopted refugee from Europe with no name, making any assertions about his heritage fairly speculative at best.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: You don't have to be Roma to be offended by that.. Urg, what is up with the world and people who are the slightest bit brown in complexion?
Well, it's because they're poor... duh. And as we all know, poor people are that way because they *want* to be that way. Ask anybody with any common sense.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Urg, what is up with the world and people who are the slightest bit brown in complexion?
I would guess that it started as social prejudice of people that worked outdoors who would generally get darker due to the sun. Then as cultures considered actual dark-skinned people (or light-skinned people), the prejudice was extrapolated to an extreme.
Thats my rough guess for why the trend occurs in places as far apart as the Western world, India, China, South Korea, and even with Aztecs and their interpretation of Cortez as a light-skinned god.
(Not that I'm condoning it, just guessing why it takes place on a global scale)
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Urg, what is up with the world and people who are the slightest bit brown in complexion?
I would guess that it started as social prejudice of people that worked outdoors who would generally get darker due to the sun. Then as cultures considered actual dark-skinned people (or light-skinned people), the prejudice was extrapolated to an extreme.
Thats my rough guess for why the trend occurs in places as far apart as the Western world, India, China, South Korea, and even with Aztecs and their interpretation of Cortez as a light-skinned god.
(Not that I'm condoning it, just guessing why it takes place on a global scale)
Yeah, that never makes sense... We should love are darker brothers and sisters... Yeah, Love them. *cues Barry White music*
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What... seriously? I haven't been active here for years. I have no idea how I've offended you.
In any case, to respond to Jim-Me, I don't think my post in this thread should raise ire. My focus is on cultural dysfunction rather than racial supremacy. And if made in that context, it shouldn't be outrageous to observe social dysfunction, like Bill Cosby with negative aspects of American black culture or Ayaan Hirsi Ali with fundamentalist Islam.
Gypsies, who are defined more by activity than ethnicity, should be treated more in terms of a social culture than a racial one. (I distinguish gypsies from Roma here.) I don't think you'd be upset if I warned you against gangsters or chavs... would you?
In the case of this potential African roommate, it's probably best summarized in an anecdote from my college years. Freshman year, a girl in my dorm picked up a ghetto black guy from the subway and brought him back to her room for a weekend of sex. He terrorized her Jewish roommate and two white suitemates, following them around to and from the shower, etc etc. He left after a few days of this, taking with him three laptops and assorted valuables.
Does this mean I don't want to room with black people? If he dresses and speaks like a normal human being, I wouldn't think twice. But I'll definitely take a close look at someone who dresses and sounds like he's from the hood. Or, god help me, Jersey.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: AH- you don't have a decent idea of what we're talking about here. "Gypsy" wanderers and Roma people are related in name only, most of the time. We're talking about an Ethnic group that is spread through central Europe. You're talking about something pretty different- the name is the same because Gypsy has come to mean "traveller" or "vagabond" in American English. That doesn't make it the same thing.
In the same way that a "Sherpa" is not a "porter," a "gypsy" in common parlance in America is not a "Rom." Please drop it, if all you want to talk about is Southwestern grifters. That's not this discussion.
While I don't want to leap to defend AH's assertion that he'll never trust gypsies, I think you're being intellectually dishonest here.
Unless you seriously think AH fears the Romani ethnicity rather than the gypsy lifestyle, I think your outrage is uncalled for. If he said he doesn't trust cholos, would you correct him to say that they should properly be called Mexicans?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Maybe kmboots was thinking about Darla, who pretended to be a high school student and until the curse, they slept together a lot and I think after her resurrection, they slept together as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Unless you seriously think AH fears the Romani ethnicity rather than the gypsy lifestyle, I think your outrage is uncalled for. If he said he doesn't trust cholos, would you correct him to say that they should properly be called Mexicans?
How exactly does my reply bespeak outrage? And in what way am I not clear that I understand AH's mistake and am attempting to correct it factually.
You also, apparently, have a poor understanding of what we're talking about. "Cholos" and "Mexicans" is not a good analogy. The difference between a Rom, and what Americans think of as a "gypsy," is that The Roma are an ethnic group, and gypsies, in American parlance, are travelers of any kind, usually grifters or con-men. The second meaning follows from the first, but is not dependent upon it. In the way that all "cholos" are presumed to be Mexicans, "gypsy" in America is not concommitant with "Roma."
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I think kmboots is thinking of that Angel episode where Angel turned human and he and Buffy did it again, at which point he then he messed it all up by going back in time (and back to being a vampire) so that only he could remember it. Either because he was a big darn hero, or because he was a bit of a prat. Your choice.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: I think kmboots is thinking of that Angel episode where Angel turned human and he and Buffy did it again, at which point he then he messed it all up by going back in time (and back to being a vampire) so that only he could remember it. Either because he was a big darn hero, or because he was a bit of a prat. Your choice.
I always thought it was because he is obsessed with being the good guy, human Angel is a wuss and even pre-badass Wesley could have beat him down. I think he would rather be all super strong and immortal than lay in bed with Buffy, guess the ice cream wasnt good enough.
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quote: Unless you seriously think AH fears the Romani ethnicity rather than the gypsy lifestyle, I think your outrage is uncalled for. If he said he doesn't trust cholos, would you correct him to say that they should properly be called Mexicans?
I cant help but respond to this one, but I grew up in Latino neighborhoods in Phoenix and if you understand proper respect Cholo's are some of the most down to earth and nicest people you can meet. If you treat them like criminals or are beneath you most will do something to scare you just to laugh about it later, and I do the same when people are rude to me as well.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: I think kmboots is thinking of that Angel episode where Angel turned human and he and Buffy did it again, at which point he then he messed it all up by going back in time (and back to being a vampire) so that only he could remember it.
I wondered if that might be it. I couldn't remember if they slept together during that episode or not.
Of course, the real reason why he chose that was so that the show wouldn't end.
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