posted
I am amazed at how many companies use employment verification companies to handle employer calls to verify former employmer for new hires.
I use to be a manager for JCPenney, and I worked there for about 7 years. However, I was hired as a contractor for Lifetouch Studios, the Photo place inside all JCPenney's. I was considered a JCPenney employee as well as a Lifetouch employee because I had to go though all the training on registers, customer service, and HR requirements as one, and I trained as one along side of the JCPenney hires.
My first day was 9/11/2001, the day the WTC was attacked, so it's not like I will ever forget my start date.
9 years later, I applied and was hired at a Nursing center. They ran into trouble verifying ANY of my employment over the past 10 year though. They all use a company called "The Work Number", meaning that their HR departments will not even confirm previous employment. Ever. They direct you to their website, which states Employers who want to verify an applicants application and work history must pay $69.99 for a monthly membership!
It also means that if you are estimating your employment times, you can lose your newly offered job before you ever start because it doesn't match exactly to their records.
I was just notified that due to the fees, Oakhurst was withdrawing my job offer. So I bit the bullet, and I went and printed a copy of the report myself, paying a personal fee of $15 to do so. Then, since I was a sub-contractor for Lifetouch, the records came back and there was a discrepancy. Even though JCPenney considered me employed, and counted those years with Lifetouch towards my retirement and pension, I wasn't technically employed by them until 2003, not 2001......and I had put 2001 on my application.
So the job offer was rescinded because they can't verify any OTHER employment without paying another fee.
I was bonded for $500,000 as a Jewelry Manager for JCPenney, and my shrink was one of the lowest in the company, yet I will not be hired as a nurse because of JCPenney's use of an employment verifier, and their inaccurate/undetailed record keeping.
This sucks...yet they insist that these services are for MY benefit.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Well, that does suck. But I'm noticing that you show up here quite often with tales of incompetent bureaucrats and whatnot, who somehow seem to single you out for their incompetence. Are you really such a lightning rod for poor record-keeping and lack of skill? If so, perhaps we should be thanking you for attracting all these idiots away from the rest of us. Or we might consider the alternative hypothesis that the common factor is something other than the sheer idiocy of many separate bureaucracies.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I've had 3 things like that happen to me in the past 5 years. Lifecare was one them. I was available 7 days a week, 24 hours a day for them, so there was literally nothing else I could do. I just got a letter from Unemployment about them, stating I won my case. They reported me as working full time for them 7 weeks before I was terminated, and had been scheduled a total of 12 hours. THEY failed to provide training, and lost my IV records TWICE in 10 days. I had no part of doing anything other than attending the class and passing the test, which I did. They failed to send in my records, they failed to place me on the schedule, they failed to follow their own policies.
The only other time was about the computerized testing system at school, and my situation was hardly alone. As a matter of fact, thanks for MY complaint, and the follow-up I did with the company, they revamped the whole program, and retrained all of the teachers on settings and test administration. All I did was hit submit and it swallowed up my test. 3 times. I didn't program the software, I didn't train (or not train) the teachers, or access the network at any time, so that is hardly my fault.
The worst part of this is that I DID use to be responsible for a lot of errors. I learned my lesson years ago, and fixed the issues I had at that time. Now I am always early, never late, keep great records.....I cross my t's and dot my i's.
I just wish other people did as well.
How is forcing my new employer to pay 69.99 a SERVICE provided to me OR them? It's pathetic, and IMO should be illegal. Why should a former employer be able to hold my employment records hostage?
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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If I understand correctly, some employers outsource the verification of past employment to a 3rd party. This 3rd party charges for its services.
And in this case, you were a contractor before you were an employee, but that wasn't clear on your stated previous employment on your job application...so things didn't line up between your application and the 3rd party's records.
I don't see a scam. I see a frustrating situation where blind bureaucracy caused enough friction to mess up this job application. It does seem - from your description - that if you had separated the contractor position from the direct employment on the application, it would have worked fine.
And I do think the hiring company should look at your explanation and work with you on clearing it up, but I can't really fault them for screening people out with convenient methods either.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Why should a former employer be able to hold my employment records hostage?
Flip it around - why should any employer be required to answer questions for the benefit of some unrelated company who wants to hire you now? Doing so costs money. Retail (as I understand it) is a very high-turnover industry, so doing so could cost quite a bit.
There's something to be said for doing it in a sort of mutually cooperative spirit - if most companies agree to verify past employment, they all benefit - but I can see why companies that tend to hire people without experience or extensive qualifications might opt out - they are the ones who least need the reciprocity. So it makes sense for them, financially, to forget about it and just sell the data points to a 3rd party who is willing to do it for a fee.
If someone is selling false information, it is a scam. If someone is selling public information, it could quite possibly be a scam. But this just seems like an unfortunate collision of several companies honestly acting in their own interests.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
KoM: he's trying to work in nursing. As my dad is a home health nurse, I am more than confident in saying that the levels of bureaucratic ridiculosity he's dealing with seem, if anything, on the low side for nursing.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
What's the point of having HR if not to do this. If an employer can legally deny you a job for mack of proof or employment, which they can, then companies should have to provide that. Charging for it creates MORE problems, not less.
Employment verification companies have no reason so care about the accuracy of the records they provide, much as the credit reporting agencies don't. And I am hardly the only person to ever have an issue with either of these types of agencies.
They who setup is a scam designed to make getting these records, with or wihtout errors, difficult. Each company can then blame the other one for errors, making it difficult to have any recourse against either.
I worked in a JCPenney's, wearing a Penney's name badge, going to Penney's mandated training, and receiving an employee discount. 9-10 year later I don't recall exactly when I started in a specific department in that Penney's, and I get penalized for it?
Bullshit. The whole situation is a setup, and suck royally.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
In all honesty, and believe it or not, in KoM's defense, 6-7 years ago he would have had a point.
Part of it is that I keep decent record now, and a lot of time I know my rights better than most. I remember the difficulty I had registering my scooter as a moped in FL. It's under 50cc, and the book says it goes less than 30 mph, so according to state law it can be registered as a moped, which means that no special motorcycle licence is needed to drive it.
But only half the people working at the registry knew that. I had to go to a second office to get it done, because the people at the first one were using a picture book 10 years old, and they didn't know the actual law.
But when I found someone who knew it, it took all of 15 min to do it right, and legally, and for 2 years.
Nursing has very high standards, and that is great. However, when I say IN MY INTERVIEW that I worked for JCPenney for 7 years, including almost 2 years as a photographer for Lifetouch inside the Penney's....don't tell me 4 weeks later that the discrepancy is an issue.
In all honesty, I feel bad for the HR person at Oakhurst. She's been in her position for less than 2 weeks, and this case is a weird one. As a former manager myself, I don't know what I would do in the same situation. Well, except that Penney's is a client, and can get the verification because they aren't too cheap to pay for it. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:If an employer can legally deny you a job for mack of proof or employment, which they can, then companies should have to provide that.
They can legally deny you a job for a whole heck of a lot of reasons. Most of those reasons do not create legal obligations for 3rd parties.
quote:Charging for it creates MORE problems, not less.
Yeah, sometimes. Charging for it might actually help you more than not doing it at all, though. That's probably the realistic alternative.
quote:Employment verification companies have no reason so care about the accuracy of the records they provide, much as the credit reporting agencies don't. And I am hardly the only person to ever have an issue with either of these types of agencies.
This is a pretty good comparison. Regulation of credit reporting agencies is pretty beneficial to individuals - and I'm a big fan of tight controls on the credit reporting industry. Perhaps regulation of employment verification services would be helpful. It would probably make it more expensive, though.
But if we toss out the idea of having this done through a 3rd party for a fee - if past employers are required to verify past employment on request - that's a little different. There is no more comparison to credit bureaus, since there is no more 3rd party looking to make a profit by providing a service which we then regulate. It imposes a semi-permanent obligation on an employer that doesn't exist (legally) right now.
I'm certainly not an expert but I would think that even absent regulation, it would be possible to sue someone for selling false information if it prevents you from getting a job. So I think the 3rd party probably does care to some extent whether their information is accurate.
quote:9-10 year later I don't recall exactly when I started in a specific department in that Penney's, and I get penalized for it?
It sucks, but (again) it does seem like if you had remembered accurately who was cutting you checks, and when, and put it that way on the application, it would have avoided the mess. I have a very similar situation with my current employer - I started as a contractor and became a regular employee later on. Same badge, same building, same perks, different employer. I'll have to try to be accurate about that later on if someone is going to try to verify my claims. *shrug* It doesn't mean you should have no recourse of any kind, but your right to recourse is set against the companies' right to act in their own interests instead of yours.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think that some companies won't give references or give any information about past employees due to possible law suits. HR departments aren't about hiring people; they are about keeping the company from being sued.
Here, we are not allowed to give any information but we do have a phone number in HR that we can direct people to call for employment verification.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
And it doesn't cost much to keep those records, either. Particularly in the digital age.
The funny thing is that Oakhurst now uses one of those services, but their new HR and their new DON didn't realize it until their receptionist told them they did.
They kept saying things like " This is unbelievable, I am sorry. It's not your fault these companies do this now. Remind me to never get a job in food service or retail.", but they use the same damn service these days. LOL
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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A few things to consider. Do you have records that you worked for Penny's in 2001-2003? If you have a form W-2 for those two years you could generally provide this information to the potential employer to show that the verification service has incorrect gaps. Also, companies are required by the state to report any new hires for purposes of garnishments/child support/state unemployment.
A company is generally only required to keep W-2's on file for four years. You can obtain copies however by calling the IRS. It may be too late for the job you applied to, but it may be a good idea to get this information together in case you have a problem in the future.
Also, it sounds strange that the photo studio had you down as a sub-contractor. Did they provide you with a 1099 form? If you were indeed a sub-contractor, then you would technically be self employed for those two years. If this were the case, I would start telling future potential employers that this was the case. That way if they wish to verify employment, you can confirm it yourself since you were your own boss.
edit:Fixed a spelling error
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:9-10 year later I don't recall exactly when I started in a specific department in that Penney's, and I get penalized for it?
It sucks, but (again) it does seem like if you had remembered accurately who was cutting you checks, and when, and put it that way on the application, it would have avoided the mess. I have a very similar situation with my current employer - I started as a contractor and became a regular employee later on. Same badge, same building, same perks, different employer. I'll have to try to be accurate about that later on if someone is going to try to verify my claims. *shrug* It doesn't mean you should have no recourse of any kind, but your right to recourse is set against the companies' right to act in their own interests instead of yours.
How would that have helped since one of the two major reasons they backed off offering me a job is that they can't verify any of my other employers in the past 10 years as both of them (yep, 3 jobs in 12 years, all major companies, one of the concurrently with the other two, and I am getting screwed for it) also use a payed system for verification now?
I am being penalized for having a great work history, and for staying at one job for 7 years.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Leaving me with what? One verified employment, and I would have been lying. I started in 2001, on 9/11 no less. I was employed by both, and it counted towards my JCP retirement.
I still couldn't meet the minimum of 2 employments verified, not without coughing up $70 PER JOB APPLIED AT to verify it. I paid for a single use copy of one employer. Any ore and they say I have to BUY a MONTHLY subscription.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Leaving me with what? One verified employment, and I would have been lying.
Not at all! You'd have been accurate about who your direct employer was. That's not lying. You could certainly also list the contractor position under Lifetouch Studios, and mention that you were actually working at the JC Penney so they understand the situation.
*shrug* I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being a jerk or anything. It just seems that you should have listed the two employers separately - that would have been more accurate, not less.
FWIW, I think the prospective employer should be willing to look at W2 forms or something so you don't have to deal with the 3rd party verification. The prices do seem exorbitant. I'm just not sure any of the companies involved should be forced to do anything differently, that's all.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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But gosh, I WISH I had been the one to think of the 3rd party Employment Verification business model. If I'm understanding this correctly, they are (or can be) charging both former employer and potential employee?
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Just to give you a little perspective, I've had interviews with 9 companies SO FAR, and I have others calling me at times. I want to work at a good facility, not just any place I can get into. I want to learn new skills, practice the ones I know, and not end up just pushing meds for 50 patients a day.
I can't afford $500 in fees to a bullshit company that doesn't even give out correct info when their service is used. Particularly if doing so DOESN'T promise me a job.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Leaving me with what? One verified employment, and I would have been lying.
Not at all! You'd have been accurate about who your direct employer was. That's not lying. You could certainly also list the contractor position under Lifetouch Studios, and mention that you were actually working at the JC Penney so they understand the situation.
*shrug* I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being a jerk or anything. It just seems that you should have listed the two employers separately - that would have been more accurate, not less.
FWIW, I think the prospective employer should be willing to look at W2 forms or something so you don't have to deal with the 3rd party verification. The prices do seem exorbitant. I'm just not sure any of the companies involved should be forced to do anything differently, that's all.
I don't think you are being a jerk, just that we disagree.
I would have STILL needed to pay for another verification, and it would not have been accurate according to what I understood at the time. JCP had added that time to my time at the job specifically because I appealed and they agreed with me....I was employed at the discretion of JCP and LT. It was added to my pension fund as well, before I left.
I also TOLD the interviewer about it, and asked if they wanted me to notate it differently. I was told it was fine as it was, as I had told them. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Kwea, since you were considered a sub-contractor for those two years, what form did they provide to you at the end of the year? A 1099 or a W2? Did they withhold taxes from the pay you received for those two years?
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I think I got a W-2, but it was 10 years ago so I am not sure.
Part of the problem is that JCP isn't sure how to categorize those types of employees. It's always been a gray area, but as I said....right before I left I appealed my start date and won. According to their own policy that time as an employee counts as JCP time.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The Social Security office can give you a printout of your employment history for free. It may not have the months (I can't remember and I'm not sure where it is at the moment) but it will have the years and the location where payroll originated. For example, I worked at a Burger King that was owned by people who owned several BK stores. My work history from SS showed the address of that company's headquarters in another city.
I also had a situation where I was trying to prove I had left a job in Illinois and moved to Iowa. The Iowa Department of Revenue decided I owed state taxes for 1995 (when I lived only in Illinois). I had to prove I didn't live here during that time. It was more than 5 years later, and my former employer could not provide any information at all - they thought my employment records were possibly in a warehouse but weren't willing to find out. (My point here being that a company may find it difficult to help you prove employment and will most likely be reluctant because at this point you don't work for them and they just don't care.)
Copies of tax information should also help in this case to prove you were employed by a particular company.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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