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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Post-Twilight Vampires. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Post-Twilight Vampires.
Wingracer
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I agree with you Foust but it's a shame you haven't read the rest. The quality of the writing goes up tremendously IMO. Still not talking Shakespeare here but considerably better.
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
The quality of the writing is an issue, of course, but come on: they are YA. It isn't meant to be compared against Salmon Rushdie or Thomas Pynchon.

It's a mistake to assume that the quality of writing in fiction aimed at young adults is mediocre. Authors who get placed in this publishing category run the gamut from embarassingly bad to fantastically good.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
It's a mistake to assume that the quality of writing in fiction aimed at young adults is mediocre. Authors who get placed in this publishing category run the gamut from embarassingly bad to fantastically good.

Heartily agreed. Anyone who thinks YA = bad writing should be forced to read E.L. Konigsburg. Start with Silent to the Bone. Then go read Laurie Halse Anderson's Speak.

If those aren't enough to convince anyone that YA can and frequently does mean excellent writing, I have more! [Razz]

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Foust
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I don't mean to imply that all YA writing is bad, but there is a genuine chasm between Amazon's sample pages of Silent to the Bone and, say, the the first chapter of Midnight's Children.

It isn't so much about bad and good, but recognizing that there is a difference between a tasty meal at TGI Friday's and a full course meal at a five star restaurant. I enjoy both in their own way, but one requires a whole other level of craft and artistry.

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katharina
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I completely disagree with that.

TGIF is oversalted crap. That isn't a difference in complexity, that's a difference in quality.

Come up with an example where both restaurants are excellent but serve different types of food, and you'll have a better analogy.

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dkw
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I'm with kat. I think the attitude that you can serve young people mass-produced crap is prevelent in YA publishing and marketing, but I think that that is unfortunate. The standards for good YA fiction should not be lower than standards for other literature.

How are kids supposed to appreciate good writing if they're not exposed to it? Good YA novels should have the highest expectations for craft and artistry while dealing with subject matter that is appropriate to the age of their audience.

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Uindy
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I love this team jacob / team edward stuff. i wish i had come up with team necrophilia / team bestiality.

[ROFL]
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
but one requires a whole other level of craft and artistry.

Completely and totally disagree.

People who say things like this generally look down at SF&F too. [Razz]

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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
I'm with kat. I think the attitude that you can serve young people mass-produced crap is prevelent in YA publishing and marketing, but I think that that is unfortunate. The standards for good YA fiction should not be lower than standards for other literature.

Even if the standards are the same, there is plenty of garbage sitting on the shelves of every other section in the bookstore. It doesn't matter what the genre is or even what art form we are talking about, some is better than others.

Remember, publishing is a business. Imagine a publisher reading through the slush pile trying to find something that might make a few bucks. He reads one that is very well written and a fascinating story but it's an obscure tale dealing with religion and family relationships. He thinks, "boring, will never sell." But then he reads another one. This one is not very original and full of flaws but it is an exciting tale about vampires full of sex and murder. "This I can sell" he thinks and you get what we have now. A few good books buried in a pile of derivative slush trying to latch on to Twilight's coat tails.

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dkw
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None of which changes the fact that the attitude of "you shouldn't expect it to be high quality, after all it's YA" is a crying shame.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
None of which changes the fact that the attitude of "you shouldn't expect it to be high quality, after all it's YA" is a crying shame.

Absolutely true. Every genre has its gems. While I personally wouldn't know, I suspect even the romance section has some excellent writing on its shelf somewhere.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
I'm with kat. I think the attitude that you can serve young people mass-produced crap is prevelent in YA publishing and marketing, but I think that that is unfortunate. The standards for good YA fiction should not be lower than standards for other literature.

How are kids supposed to appreciate good writing if they're not exposed to it? Good YA novels should have the highest expectations for craft and artistry while dealing with subject matter that is appropriate to the age of their audience.

I agree with this. I remember one of the first YA books I can remember reading that left an impression on me was "Rifles for Wati."

This book was a civil war novel like The Red Badge of Courage. While I appreciate Red Badge of Courage, Rifles for Wati had a more "human" touch to it. I could relate to the characters. It was well written.

Then I started reading trash like the Goosebumps series.

I think a good gauge (for me anyway) on whether a book is trash or not is if I go back and read it down the road. I haven't read any of the Goosebumps books more than once, but have read Rifles for Wati four or five times over the years. I've read Ender's Game over a dozen times, and I still enjoy it every time I pick it up.

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Foust
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quote:
The standards for good YA fiction should not be lower than standards for other literature.
But here's the thing: the very fact that a YA category exists is a sign that something different is going on. Why not just write a novel about a teenager and sell it as a regular book?

Are the best contemporary YA novels comparable to novels read by the young in the past, such as Tom Sawyer or Lord of the Rings?

Populist taste can be just as reactionary as Harold Bloom-style canon worship.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
quote:
The standards for good YA fiction should not be lower than standards for other literature.
But here's the thing: the very fact that a YA category exists is a sign that something different is going on. Why not just write a novel about a teenager and sell it as a regular book?
Because booksellers absolutely INSIST on assigning every book a niche. Most YA authors didn't set out to write a YA book. They just set out to write a book! That decision was their publisher's and/or that of the various book distributors, marketers, and sellers.

And I will point out again that every argument you have made about YA can be -- and has been -- made about SF&F.

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Wingracer
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Most of the good YA books are there because the publisher didn't know what else to do with it. If it doesn't fall easily into a normal category but would have some appeal to younger audiences, to the YA shelf it goes.
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PSI Teleport
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I'm dealing with this problem right now with the publishing industry. I tend to write teenage protagonists in very dramatic or adults situations, books that I wouldn't want a preteen to read. But the fact that it might get categorized as YA without my control makes me hesitant to submit these. I know that kids might pick up a more mature novel and read it on their own, and there's nothing I can do about that. But I don't think I could intentionally sell something when I know it's going to be marketed to children.
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Foust
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quote:
Because booksellers absolutely INSIST on assigning every book a niche
Really? This makes sense on a certain level, but look at the American Library Association's 2010 list of the best books for young adults.

A large percentage of that list covers a correspondingly small number of themes. Young people finding their way in life, through a series of hot button issues: you mother's lesbian partner, eating disorders, abusive fathers, body image, high school social status.

There also seems to be a large number of fantasy books trying to ride the coat tails of Harry Potter and Twilight.

If the ALA's list is representative, than quirky, unique books are not being unfairly pigeonholed by publishers: there actually is a "YA" aesthetic, just like there is an "indie" aesthetic in movies.

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Scott R
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quote:
there actually is a "YA" aesthetic, just like there is an "indie" aesthetic in movies.
Yep, there is. However, the interaction between publisher, author, reader, publicist, etc, is a bit more complex than what has been covered here.

Just because a book is on the ALA list of best books for YA readers doesn't mean it is a strictly YA book. While there are authors who write to middle-grade and YA audiences, it cannot be said that EVERY author does so.

Hm...this reminds me of something Robert Crais said-- here's a link. The part I was going to quote is too long, but it starts with the phrase, "Well, there’s nothing new about the ghettoization of crime fiction or any of the genres.

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LaneyDMD
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My 13 year old son just read Hunger Games. I was astounded at how he was drawn into the story! That didn't happen with the Percy Jackson books, nor the Potter books.

Apparently this book is a big hit with the late middle school early high school crowd - both boys and girls.

I have some qualms with the themes of the book, and the ending will make you want to throw the book through the window ( at the author). If you like dystopian type stories, you will like the Hunger Games. If you're like me and you don't like such stories, you will have a tough time suspending disbelief well enough to lose yourself in the book.

[ August 12, 2010, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: LaneyDMD ]

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