quote: An earthquake is beginning: If "gay is like black," then "Christian is like racist." The early warning signs are now taking place all over the globe. In New Zealand, Exodus Ministries was just stripped of its tax-exempt status, on the grounds that helping gay people lead Christian lives is not a charity
quote:An earthquake is beginning: If "gay is like black," then "Christian is like racist."
Out of the handful of organizations in place to spearhead the 'protection of American values against homosexuality,' the National Organization for Marriage is alone these days in being so surreal that it may as well be a joke operation. At any rate, it's probably been hurting its cause more than it could possibly be advancing it, ever since the Oncoming Storm ad.
So, interestingly, I'm very pro-NOM. I actively want them to be the face of the anti gay marriage movement. It helps. A lot.
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I'm borrowing the idea from the X-men stories but I think it would make for an interesting story/moral dilemma if there was a "cure", like a genetic fix or something. I wonder how many gay people would take the cure? I think the counterpoint would be more fascinating. What if it was a pure DNA thing or something like that, and we could turn it 'on'? Imagine if straight people started choosing to be gay!
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Its not charity.
"The commission said the trust was not performing any public benefit because homosexuality was not a mental disorder and did not need curing."
Setting up a suicide hotline? Charity. Setting up an orphanage (regardless of whether you allow gay couples to adopt)? Charity.
Trying to cure people of a non-existent mental illness? Not a charity.
Trying to help those who believe their homosexuality is not in accordance with God's will for them *is* charity to me.
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: I'm borrowing the idea from the X-men stories but I think it would make for an interesting story/moral dilemma if there was a "cure", like a genetic fix or something. I wonder how many gay people would take the cure? I think the counterpoint would be more fascinating. What if it was a pure DNA thing or something like that, and we could turn it 'on'? Imagine if straight people started choosing to be gay!
I don't know why anyone would choose to change their sexuality using a "cure" to be honest. If I were straight, what motivation would I have to want to be gay? Or vice versa? I realize that some homosexuals would be motivated due to family, religious, or community pressures, but still.
Being able to fly or lift heavy objects or read minds is different than being attracted to the same sex.
Of course, if I really want super powers, I don't need my DNA messed with, I just need to go vegan!
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Its not charity.
"The commission said the trust was not performing any public benefit because homosexuality was not a mental disorder and did not need curing."
Setting up a suicide hotline? Charity. Setting up an orphanage (regardless of whether you allow gay couples to adopt)? Charity.
Trying to cure people of a non-existent mental illness? Not a charity.
Trying to help those who believe their homosexuality is not in accordance with God's will for them *is* charity to me.
And you probably also view converting people to be charity as well. Assuming you do, thats fine by me. I respect your belief, I am always extremely polite when people talk to me about their religion. The court is just saying to be tax-exempt you must offer an actual benefit to the public that extends beyond a religious belief.
Offering tax-exempt status to this organization involves the government agreeing that homosexuality is a mental disorder. They do not.
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quote:Offering tax-exempt status to this organization involves the government agreeing that homosexuality is a mental disorder. They do not.
No it doesn't. It just involves the government recognizing that these people are trying to help people accomplish something that they want to accomplish. The government doesn't have to make a stand about whether that's a good thing or not.
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quote: I don't know why anyone would choose to change their sexuality using a "cure" to be honest. If I were straight, what motivation would I have to want to be gay? Or vice versa? I realize that some homosexuals would be motivated due to family, religious, or community pressures, but still.
In some ways, it might be awesome to be able to be bi. You'd have 50% more of the population in which to find your soulmate. The more the possibilities the better the odds. Maybe.
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quote:Offering tax-exempt status to this organization involves the government agreeing that homosexuality is a mental disorder. They do not.
No it doesn't. It just involves the government recognizing that these people are trying to help people accomplish something that they want to accomplish. The government doesn't have to make a stand about whether that's a good thing or not.
That's actually what I thought when I read this. The idea that it is not a charity because homosexuality isn't a mental disorder doesn't work for me.
Exodus is a dishonest, irresponsible organization that does have any reputable evidence that they are helping people and significant amounts that they are hurting people. And honestly, I don't know that that disqualifies them from being a charity either. By and large, I expect that they are trying to help people, it's just that their massive flaws are preventing them from achieving this.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: The government doesn't have to make a stand about whether that's a good thing or not.
This seems to vary from country to country. New Zealand seems to have different requirements that do require them to take a stand.
The relevant bits are:
quote:In addition, to be charitable at law, a purpose must be for the public benefit.
quote:56. In light of the above, the Commission considers that it is not able to determine whether the Applicant will, or will not, provide a benefit to the public that will outweigh any harm caused by the Applicant’s purposes. Accordingly, the Commission is unable to determine whether the Applicant’s purposes will provide a public benefit.
posted
I can see taking a "cure" to be straight a lot more than taking a cure to be gay. If you are a straight male, you have about 40% of the population to shop around from (assuming 50% of the population is female and interested in males- not sure of the actual numbers there). If you are a gay male, you have maybe 10% of the population to check out. Just based on sheer odds, you'll have better luck finding someone if you are straight. Though being bi would be the best option overall for that. Perhaps you are in a population where these numbers aren't true (isn't Alaska skewed heavily male) so maybe then you would want to go gay.
You do also have the making babies issues. If you always wanted to be a daddy and want to have one that is biologically yours, it is a lot cheaper and easier to do that if you have a female as your mate. Also, then both partners get their DNA into the baby which as technology currently stands is only possible with a heterosexual pair (willing to concede in the future this may not be a requirement).
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: If you always wanted to be a daddy and want to have one that is biologically yours, it is a lot cheaper and easier to do that if you have a female as your mate.
Sometimes, probably most of the time, but not always true.
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quote:Just based on sheer odds, you'll have better luck finding someone if you are straight. Though being bi would be the best option overall for that.
This assumes that most heterosexuals don't mind their partners being bisexual.
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quote:And you probably also view converting people to be charity as well.
No, I don't. Not in of itself.
For some reason it didn't parse for me that this is Exodus we are talking about. I can't say I'm a fan.
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quote:Just based on sheer odds, you'll have better luck finding someone if you are straight. Though being bi would be the best option overall for that.
This assumes that most heterosexuals don't mind their partners being bisexual.
posted
Also, you would see a remarkable number of people opting for the fix to be straight, much for the same reasons why back in the 1960's you would see people take the fix to be white.
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I can understanding switching from gay to straight. I could less understand a change from straight to gay, but that is coming from someone that is straight. I don't like the term "fix" because it implies something is wrong, I think they are just different. (I realize I have said the opposite in the past, but you tend to learn things here on this forum )
I know most men wouldn't mind if their significant others were bisexual, but I wonder what the statistics are among women minding if their men are bisexual. In general I believe women are more accepting of homosexual men, but I do not know if they would be as open to their husband being bisexual with other men.
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I know most men wouldn't mind if their significant others were bisexual, but I wonder what the statistics are among women minding if their men are bisexual. In general I believe women are more accepting of homosexual men, but I do not know if they would be as open to their husband being bisexual with other men.
To me, this sounds like you're implying that bisexuals aren't monogamous. If you weren't, I apologize, but I do want to say that bisexuals are just as capable of monogamy as heterosexuals. That was something my dad had an issue with--he thought that because I am bisexual, I would "by definition" want a girlfriend and boyfriend at the same time, which simply isn't true.
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I don't watch sex and the city but I have this vague memory of the end of an episode where the MC with the curly hair breaks up with a guy cause he was bi. I thought that was a bit weird- if the guy is monogamous and you already don't care about the number of partners he has had, what's the big deal?
I knew someone who came out and his mom made him promise not to have any teenage or preadolescence lovers. He said, yeah, I want to sleep with men, not boys. Gay not pedophile. I found that amusing because she is always claiming to be so open minded and tolerant (actually she is one of the liberals who are open minded as long as you agree with them) and so her response amused me. She also believes life is better if it just never comes up with anyone that she has a gay son- but she is of course a big supporter of gay rights and hates all us dirty Mormons who funded prop 8 (I didn't but I still belong to a church that encouraged it so I am only barely acceptable as a human being).
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I think many people think deep down that if you still call yourself bi in a comitted relationship that it sounds like you are still looking to keep your options open.
Does that makes sense?
It may not be a logical asumption for people to make, but when it comes to relationships people are rarely logical.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: ... breaks up with a guy cause he was bi. I thought that was a bit weird- if the guy is monogamous and you already don't care about the number of partners he has had, what's the big deal?
Risk minimization, I would guess.
quote:In the experiment, psychologists at Northwestern University and the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto used advertisements in gay and alternative newspapers to recruit 101 young adult men. Thirty-three of the men identified themselves as bisexual, 30 as straight and 38 as homosexual. ... But the men in the study who described themselves as bisexual did not have patterns of arousal that were consistent with their stated attraction to men and to women. Instead, about three-quarters of the group had arousal patterns identical to those of gay men; the rest were indistinguishable from heterosexuals. ... And a 1994 survey by The Advocate, the gay-oriented newsmagazine, found that, before identifying themselves as gay, 40 percent of gay men had described themselves as bisexual.
quote:In this chart, throughout the teens and twenties, the male bisexual population is mostly observably gay men. By the mid-thirties, it seems, most of these men are more comfortable self-identifying as gay and have left the bi population.
posted
That's something I noticed anecdotally. I'd say that about 80% of the "bi" guys I knew in high school ended up identifying as "gay" by several years later.
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I'm not sure I would be behind giving tax-exempt status to those helping other people do what they want to do, regardless of some external assessment of that goal in some way. That is, just "trying to help people accomplish something that they want to accomplish" wouldn't be sufficient for me, given the variety of things people want to accomplish.
There's have to be some extra step. Whether this circumstance in particular would also fulfill that extra step depends on the step, I suppose. It's difficult for me to figure out a tenable step in a non-sectarian format that it would fulfill.
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I know most men wouldn't mind if their significant others were bisexual, but I wonder what the statistics are among women minding if their men are bisexual. In general I believe women are more accepting of homosexual men, but I do not know if they would be as open to their husband being bisexual with other men.
To me, this sounds like you're implying that bisexuals aren't monogamous. If you weren't, I apologize, but I do want to say that bisexuals are just as capable of monogamy as heterosexuals. That was something my dad had an issue with--he thought that because I am bisexual, I would "by definition" want a girlfriend and boyfriend at the same time, which simply isn't true.
That was not my intention, I apologize if I came across that way.
I was just trying to point out that straight men are usually known for being more open to having bisexual partners, many because they think it is sexy. There is always a hope that by dating a bisexual female they will "get lucky."
I was asking whether women think this same way about bisexual men. If you asked the average straight man if they want to see two women having sex, they are likely to say yes. If you asked the average straight woman if she would like to see two men having sex, I think the amount of women that say yes would be smaller.
That being said, I think society is more accepting of homosexual females than homosexual males at the current time. I believe part of this is due to the porn industry. The Lesbian/bisexual female porn industry has grown exponentially over the past decade.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I think many people think deep down that if you still call yourself bi in a comitted relationship that it sounds like you are still looking to keep your options open.
Does that makes sense?
*shrug* it makes a lot of sense to me. I have noticed that people who explain that they are bisexual tend to also be keeping their options open.
That doesn't mean that being bisexual is a bar to monogamy. It might mean that people who are already committed to monogamy don't really explain their sexual orientation as much.
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I was asking whether women think this same way about bisexual men. If you asked the average straight man if they want to see two women having sex, they are likely to say yes. If you asked the average straight woman if she would like to see two men having sex, I think the amount of women that say yes would be smaller.
That being said, I think society is more accepting of homosexual females than homosexual males at the current time. I believe part of this is due to the porn industry. The Lesbian/bisexual female porn industry has grown exponentially over the past decade.
"Lesbian" porn made for men has been popular for quite a while, but the thing that really has exploded over the past decade is "gay" porn for women in the forms of slash and yaoi. Its absolutely rampant in female heavy online fandom communities, you can't join any without tripping over slash pairings right and left. Boys at fandom conventions are starting to do the "bi for attention, watch me kiss someone" thing to get female attention, much like college girls do to get male attention. So, I'll have to disagree about women being less accepting of a male bisexual partner.
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posted
I do think that women are less accepting of male bisexual partners. I can say that for me, a woman, I would be extremely reluctant to date a bisexual man. I do associate it with a lack of certainty about one's sexuality and that is unattractive to me. I think that I am far from alone in this. Even if "gay" porn for women is growing greatly, you can have a 400% growth rate going from 1% to 4%. (The numbers are made up- I'm just saying that your experience can be completely true and valid without negating the general trend.)
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quote: It might mean that people who are already committed to monogamy don't really explain their sexual orientation as much.
There's a scene in my very favorite space opera (the Vorkosigan series by Bujold) where somebody asks the protagonist "Are you aware that your husband is bisexual?" "Was bisexual," she answers. "Now, he's monogamous."
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: I'm borrowing the idea from the X-men stories but I think it would make for an interesting story/moral dilemma if there was a "cure", like a genetic fix or something. I wonder how many gay people would take the cure? I think the counterpoint would be more fascinating. What if it was a pure DNA thing or something like that, and we could turn it 'on'? Imagine if straight people started choosing to be gay!
from vid starting at 45sec into clip || Bobbie: “There’s something I need to tell you.” . . . Mom: “When did you first know that you were a…a…?” Bobbie: “A mutant.” . . . Mom: “Have you tried…not being a mutant?”
It makes me laugh now; but not being out at the time the movie was released, that scene had me shaking in my boots as it was a little too close to home.
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posted
Mucus, thank you for your post and the links. It is interesting to see numbers reported.
I have seen the same scenario play out.
When I first met *Don at a party, he introduced himself as, "Hi, I'm Don. I'm straight." (There were many gay folks there.) Six months later, he identified as bisexual. At the end of the year he identified as gay.
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It makes me laugh now; but not being out at the time the movie was released, that scene had me shaking in my boots as it was a little too close to home.
