quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Can you be loyal to Israel as a Jewish state while voting for politicians who would like to make Israel less officially Jewish?
Presumably that depends on your definition of "Jewish state".
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I also don't see immediately why this is offensive, but the fact that the proposed law divided the Israeli cabinet is something of a red flag for me. I would really like some more detail on why the Labor leaders were opposed to the law.
The key problem I see is that law only applies to non-Jewish immigrants so it creates a legal difference between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens. Using BlackBlades analogy, it's the equivalent of a law that would require a different loyalty oath from Mexican Immigrants than from immigrants from other areas. And while I wouldn't have any problem with naturalized citizens being required to swear to support the currently recognized US borders, I would find it objectionable to have a law that singled out Mexican immigrants for differential treatment.
This really is something of a thorny problem that highlights the inherent conflict between having equality for all groups and maintaining a "Jewish state" (or any other ethnic group). Requiring such an oath for Jewish immigrants restricts the "right of return"* to only Jews willing to swear loyalty to the Jewish state. I can understand how those who think it is critical that Israel be a safe haven for All Jews would find this unacceptable. I can also understand why in the given political climate, people would consider it important to require this loyalty oath for immigrants. The problem is that people want three things that are incompatible, 1. Right of return for all Jews, 2. Assurance that immigrants will be loyal to Israel, and 3. Equality for all citizens regardless of ethnicity**. You can pick any two, but not all three.
*I placed "right of return" in quotes to denote that my use of this common term should not be considered as a recognition that the term is technically accurate.
**I chose the term ethnicity because as I understand it "right of return" applies more nearly to "Jews" as an ethnic group than as a religious group, i.e.
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That wasn't a value judgment. Ireland, for example, had similar issues regarding divorce. It is a tough thing to balance two types of government that are often in conflict. Something has to give.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I also don't see immediately why this is offensive, but the fact that the proposed law divided the Israeli cabinet is something of a red flag for me. I would really like some more detail on why the Labor leaders were opposed to the law.
There is an ongoing struggle in Israel between those who want Israel to be a Hebrew speaking Singapore and those who want Israel to be a Jewish state.
Political Zionism was born at a time when Jews had started to be allowed out of the ghettos. There was very little mix between Jews and non-Jews prior to this in Europe. Jews had their areas where they had a degree of autonomy (were able to live by their own laws), but they weren't allowed to participate in non-Jewish society in any way.
When the doors began to open, a lot of Jews jumped at the chance to be a part of non-Jewish society. They jettisoned their observances and became involved with everything. But they found that even though they were allowed -- legally -- to participate in general society, anti-semitism hadn't been reduced very much at all.
Theodor Herzl, who founded the Zionist movement, did so after seeing a Jew named Dreyfus falsely accused of treason in France. He came to the conclusion that even in the most accepting societies, where an assimilated Jew could be a captain in the French army, the world would never allow us to live as equals. And since Jews had never given up on Israel, and since Jews had been migrating back to Israel in dribs and drabs ever since we were kicked out, he decided that it was time for us all to go home.
His biggest opponents were wealthy assimilated Jews. One of the bankers who pushed for the creation of the Federal Reserve in the US was Felix Warburg, a Jew from a German banking family. He was one of the most die-hard fighters against the idea. Because the assimilated Jews had come to the conclusion that the only way to ever fit in was to abandon the whole notion of Jews as a nation and say that we're merely a religion, no different than any other. So that Jews in America are Americans whose religion happens to be Jewish. And they were absolutely petrified that if people thought of them as part of a Jewish nation, they'd never be accepted as Americans.
Which may be a reasonable point.
But it was Martin Buber who assumed the role of the anti-Zionist intellectuals. And it was his students who founded most of the major cultural institutions in Israel. Hebrew University, for example. They had no problem with Jews living in the land of Israel. They just didn't want a Jewish state.
They were the ones who built literature and theater and art and journalism and everything you probably think of as "culture" in Israel. And they've had a stranglehold on the government for decades, because they had an ideology. Those who wanted a Jewish state did not. All they had was "we want a Jewish state".
But now, the pendulum has been swinging in Israel. Ironically, the expulsions from Gaza may have had a positive effect. Many Israelis, even those who had been vociferous leftists (and in Israel, leftist isn't as much an economic and social issue as it is a cultural and religious one), have begun to abandon that position. They've come to realize what the end result of it is. They've come to realize that no matter what they give, the Arabs are never going to be satisfied so long as there's a Jewish state in their midst. So long as there are non-Arab non-Muslims who aren't subject to them.
They've seen the utter irrationality and near worship of death that exists among some of the Arabs. Some and not all, that's true. But enough to ensure that each generation believes to the core of their being that Jews are the devil and that killing Jews, even at the cost of their own lives or the lives of their childrens, is the most heroic thing possible.
Every poll that's been done shows that the government is utterly out of touch with the people. And while that may be true in most countries, Israel has made it into almost an art form. Israel elects left-wingers, and they try to give away the farm. They elect right-wingers, and they do give away the farm. Begin gave away the Sinai. Sharon destroyed the homes and livelihoods of 9,000 innocent men, women and children in order to make a gesture, which failed. Netanyahu gave the Arabs Hebron and armed them, and more recently has forbidden people living in Judea and Samaria from building homes. Even more recently, he offered to continue this ban if the Arabs would merely say, "Okay, Israel is a Jewish state." And the Arabs were unwilling to even do that. And this was only a week or two after the head of those same Arabs declared that a future "Palestine" would be judenrein. No Jews allowed.
That's why this statement of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state has divided the cabinet. Because for almost everyone in the cabinet, the idea of a Jewish state is terrible. It puts pressure on them to be Jews, rather than just Israelis. The miracle is that this passed at all. And it did so primarily because many of the cabinet members are embarrassed to admit that they don't really want Israel to be a Jewish state.
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Perhaps you should wonder why it's almost impossible to govern a modern state as a theocracy...?
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quote:Even more recently, he offered to continue this ban if the Arabs would merely say, "Okay, Israel is a Jewish state." And the Arabs were unwilling to even do that.
You don't think it might be reasonable for them to worry that such an admission might provide grounds for the Netanyahu government to expel Israeli citizens of Arab heritage?
Not that I think this was BN's plan, but surely you can see why Arabs might be suspicious.
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quote:Even more recently, he offered to continue this ban if the Arabs would merely say, "Okay, Israel is a Jewish state." And the Arabs were unwilling to even do that.
You don't think it might be reasonable for them to worry that such an admission might provide grounds for the Netanyahu government to expel Israeli citizens of Arab heritage?
Bibi's government? No. Any Arab who thinks that's even a distant possibility is as delusional as Jews who think the Arabs want to make peace.
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"Between justice and genocide there is, in the long run, no middle ground." It looks to me as though it'll eventually come down to genocide. I make no prediction of which side is going to be exterminated. The Jews have the preponderance of power as against the Palestinians, but if you factor in the Arab states it's a different thing again.
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Blayne Bradley
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Israel can also turn Mecca into glass should it seem they're the likely ones.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: "Between justice and genocide there is, in the long run, no middle ground." It looks to me as though it'll eventually come down to genocide. I make no prediction of which side is going to be exterminated. The Jews have the preponderance of power as against the Palestinians, but if you factor in the Arab states it's a different thing again.
Jesus... a bit melodramatic, don't you think?
If the Brits and the Irish worked things out, anything is possible. People tend to muddle through.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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We get an overexposure of those who, essentially, demand the war they predict will come to pass, to serve as a vindication of the notion that it is impossible that the other side to want to coexist in peace. But they won't have their way.
Well, probably. If they get their way, Israel loses out, being a lil' tiny nation with a tendency towards belligerance that outsteps their square footage.
But I'm optimistic. The diehards from the Bad Old Days can't live forever. Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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(Post Removed By Janitor Blade. Sa'eed, defending, condoning, or promoting "antisemitic" behavior cannot be tolerated on these boards. You know this.)
quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: (Post Removed By Janitor Blade. Sa'eed, defending, condoning, or promoting "antisemitic" behavior cannot be tolerated on these boards. You know this.)
Scare quotes? Really? It wasn't "antisemitic". It was antisemitic.
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quote:Even more recently, he offered to continue this ban if the Arabs would merely say, "Okay, Israel is a Jewish state." And the Arabs were unwilling to even do that.
You don't think it might be reasonable for them to worry that such an admission might provide grounds for the Netanyahu government to expel Israeli citizens of Arab heritage?
Bibi's government? No. Any Arab who thinks that's even a distant possibility is as delusional as Jews who think the Arabs want to make peace.
You don't think it's possible for sane people from different backgrounds to weigh the evidence rather differently on questions like this?
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Even more recently, he offered to continue this ban if the Arabs would merely say, "Okay, Israel is a Jewish state." And the Arabs were unwilling to even do that.
You don't think it might be reasonable for them to worry that such an admission might provide grounds for the Netanyahu government to expel Israeli citizens of Arab heritage?
Bibi's government? No. Any Arab who thinks that's even a distant possibility is as delusional as Jews who think the Arabs want to make peace.
You don't think it's possible for sane people from different backgrounds to weigh the evidence rather differently on questions like this?
Not informed sane people. There are people in the Likud who might, under certain circumstances try and get the Arabs to go elsewhere. Bibi wouldn't in a billion years. He doesn't see himself that way, and he simply could not. And anyone who thinks otherwise (and believe me, I wish it were otherwise) is either ignorant or crazy or dishonest. There is no other possibility.
Once upon a time, Rabbi Meir Kahane proposed a plan to pay any Arabs who wanted to emigrate. You know how the Israeli government reacted? The cabinet went into emergency session and came out with a public statement repudiating him. And at the time, he was a private citizen. He hadn't even considered going into politics in Israel.
Bibi is like that. If someone were to make that offer today, he'd be one of the first to put a stop to it.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: (Post Removed By Janitor Blade. Sa'eed, defending, condoning, or promoting "antisemitic" behavior cannot be tolerated on these boards. You know this.)
Scare quotes? Really? It wasn't "antisemitic". It was antisemitic.
They weren't scare quotes, or at least that wasn't my intention. They were quotation marks so as to draw emphasis to the word in parenthesis. I could have just as easily bolded, used italics, or placed ** over it.
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Blayne Bradley
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In casual diction putting quotes on a word is the verbal equivilent of putting "air quotes" on the word.
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Agree with Lisa and Blayne on that one. Quotes are not emphasis. They are also not parentheses. What you perhaps meant to say was "draw emphasis to the word so marked"; of course one does not usually draw emphasis either, one draws attention. "Give emphasis" would be much better usage.
In short, good moderating, bad English. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: (Post Removed By Janitor Blade. Sa'eed, defending, condoning, or promoting "antisemitic" behavior cannot be tolerated on these boards. You know this.)
Of course he knows this. I think he also knows how much he has to care.
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It's cute how we get to have our own little Israel - Palestine conflict right here on Hatrack, with both players trying to convince the rest of us that they are justified in their poor behavior toward the other.
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