quote: In fact, the fact that this continues to bother him, and his struggle with this, is one of the largest things his story arc has focused on.
Yeah, but we've had that storyline in the comic at least three times now. It should have ended years ago, if they were just going to keep spiralling.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I actually loved World War Z kat - you may love it too. I read many reviews of it both positive and negative, and I strangely I agreed with much of what I read, and still liked the book. It has its strong points and its weak points but overall, I really, really enjoyed it.
As to the 2nd episode of the TV show - probably the last one I will watch. I wanted an optimistic, hopeful story about people banding together and using their wits and their strengths to overcome an impossible situation and that does not appear to be the story I will get.
The adultery in the forest made me very uncomfortable - as we said, Rick can't have been in a coma more than a week or so from the outbreak, and even given that it may have taken a week to make the trip to Atlanta - she has been away from her husband for two weeks, and has no idea if he's alive or dead. Not to mention, that was very poor decision making. She was obviously afraid enough to be startled when she heard twigs snapping so she had reason to believe there might have been zombies in the area. So, let's just take a romp on the forest floor!! Is she not thinking of her son at all - how is he going to react to her shacking up with a new man less than a month since he last saw his dad?
She is not a sympathetic character at all, and Rick is also becoming less of one. Right now the only one I really like is the teenager. He's smart, capable, and still cares about others.
posted
What did Rick do that decreased your sympathy in the second episode?
Honestly, I'm somewhat afraid that the changes this show is making tend towards negative. The adultery in the forest never happened, at least it didn't happen in such a stupid way; that problematic conversation in the first episode didn't happen... the whole situation with handcuffing the guy never happened.
The way they handled Morgan was wonderful. But I'm less certain about the way they have handled the other characters. Glenn is great. He's still Glen. Andrea is nice, but I don't quite understand why they had her that way. It's not really how she was at the beginning. She was still much more innocent and optimistic then. She only became tough after a lot of trauma, and even then it was combined with closeness with Dale, and later a strong trust of Rick. With those seemingly absent, she seems a less positive character.
After all, the "point guns at people first" thing of hers only started in earnest after issue 48. Then again, issue 48 changed pretty much everyone who survived.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have friends who do and say all sorts of things I don't agree with, but I have hard time imagining becoming really tight with someone who regularly treated the people close them so badly.
What makes you think he regularly treats the people close to him badly? I don't recall exactly what was said, I wasn't paying such close attention, but it seemed like he was just complaining about his wife not turning off the lights and made some misogynist comments about it, but IIRC he didn't say he beats his wife over it or anything like that.
Treating someone badly is not confined to physical violence. Objectification, naked contempt, disrespect, and cursing at and about her all qualify.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The handcuffing and leaving the guy - he could have handcuffed the guys hands behind his back and still kept the guy with the group. When the group made plans to escape and did not take the guy off the roof with them...I knew he would be left. And despite the jerk that he was (and there was no doubt he was a jerk) he didn't deserve that.
Also, if you handcuff a guy to a roof in a city full of zombies, you should go un-handcuff the guy. Leaving it to someone else who has reason not to do it....not cool.
I also don't like smart zombies - one of the things that makes zombies so terrifying is their lack of human intelligence - that they are a mindless horde and still manage to be threaten us, it is a commentary on the fact that our human intelligence cannot always save us. When you pit that human intelligence against another intelligence it becomes a different type of story. It can still be scary, still intense and suspenseful - but it's different.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Overall, I feel like the show lost some steam for me. Which isn't to say that it didn't have some great moments. The opening with Merle was intense. I was absolutely riveted.
The other key high point was the reunion between Rick and Carl. I'm so glad it wasn't over dramatized. I feel like any other show would have thrown in some excessive slow motion or something really over the top. Instead we got this lovely moment and the look on Rick's face when he saw his family...just perfect.
I also really enjoyed the moment with the ladies by the river. I like shows that make time for the quiet or mundane moments.
My biggest issue with this episode was Carol. I kinda shrugged off the small character changes for Shane and Lori but Carol is almost a completely different character. She looks very different from her comic counterpart and while the series makes mention of an abusive husband, he never made an appearance and its possible she may have been lying. Still, she seems to maintain her generally likable demeanor among the other campers so depending how things play out for her husband, we may or may not see a truly different incarnation of Carol.
And why do so many of the new characters come off as over-the-top stereotypes? I can tolerate one redneck because in a post-Zombie South you know its the rednecks that are going to survive (and besides, Merle's brother Daryl is much more realistic.) But now we also have not at all subtle abusive husband. And his storyline seems very similar to recent issues of the graphic novel, though with very different characters and purpose.
So basically this episode was a mixed bag for me. Still excited for next week though!
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Me too. I, also, am wondering what's up with the over-the-top stereotypes. Why do we need them? Why not just stick with characters who are actually that- characters?
I feel like these episodes were written by a different person than the first episode. That one was too real. It had much more true emotion.
Or... episode two was also written by Daramont. (checked imdb) Episode three, however, was written by him and several other people, too.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:The handcuffing and leaving the guy - he could have handcuffed the guys hands behind his back and still kept the guy with the group. When the group made plans to escape and did not take the guy off the roof with them...I knew he would be left. And despite the jerk that he was (and there was no doubt he was a jerk) he didn't deserve that.
That's interesting, because the impression I got from the guy was that he actually planned to do some murdering once he won the little fight on the roof, before he got cuffed. I certainly didn't think he didn't deserve to be cuffed and immobilized, because a big, strong, aggressive guy like that could stand up, kick, knock people over.
I don't know how I feel about not (initially) planning to take him with them. It's the zombie apocalypse, and this idiot is a) starting an injuring fight and b) it's about race? And giving off 'gonna kill you' vibes and 'make me leader' vibes?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
It's an extremely stressful situation - people's worst traits come out in such situations. Not excusing him - he was despicable and if it were me, I would have seriously considered leaving him. But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume. And, if he is so committed to preserving human life, he should have shown that by making sure the guy was not left on the roof. Making sure means not leaving the key with someone else - it means going to release the guy himself. Not to mention, you don't send the guy who has been beaten up by the idiot to release him - too much of a chance for another fight to break out. Rick had the best chance of releasing the guy and keeping him under control because he has training and experience the others do not.
I would have explained to him, calmly that he was coming with them, handcuffed, and if he gave them any grief he would be shot in the head immediately so he could no longer be threat, nor could he rise again.
Leaving him handcuffed on the roof was beyond the pale.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: ... But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume.
Not for the rest of his life, normally a cop just has to deliver a criminal, often with backup, to a well-secured prison. Keeping the guy around means risking the guy taking revenge or trying to beat everyone into acknowledging his leadership or worse.
Besides, it's Michael Rooker. When it comes to his track record in the genre, he must die. He can't be trusted.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:But Rick is a cop - he knows how to subdue a suspect and keep him under control one would presume.
He's also a cop who was pretty substantially injured, not just by the gunshot wound (which still pained him), but by the violent attack he'd just suffered at the guy's hands. Should he know how to do that? Well, sure. But...we don't know w good of a cop Rick is, or more appropriately was, since how much there really are cops anymore is up for debate in that world. So does he know? I'm not so sure. And again, he's got the rest of the group to think of too, whom the guy has already violently threatened and knowingly endangered over racism.
quote:Leaving him handcuffed on the roof was beyond the pale.
Fortunately, that's not quite what he did. And I don't really buy that 'the worst comes out' defense for the guy either, because as we saw in his dream, he was pretty much a scumbag before the zombie uprising, too. And that thoughtful defense of racism? That wasn't something he came up with on the rooftop, that's something he believed before. Nor was his proposition.
Did he deserve to be handcuffed to that roof? Well, no, I certainly agree with that. I'm also not at all sure the rest of the group deserves to have him with them seriously endangering all of their lives either by his constant stupidity or by his deliberate malice, whichever happens first, because both were shown repeatedly.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I read World War Z. It is absolutely fantastic. Terrifying, too. I was supposed to go running last night and couldn't because I was afraid of the zombies.
It showed people in all sorts of different situations react to the crisis - it's the very best kind of apocalyptic novel.
Drop the show! Read World War Z instead!
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
It's possible to eat 5-year-old tootsie rolls as well as chocolate ganache, but why would you want to?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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"Universal Acclaim" for both user and critic scores.
That's not to say that they are right and you are wrong, that's an opinion of course. Just something for you to consider in your attempts to dismiss it.
Edit: (Oh and I've already read WWZ. I suspect that those who would enjoy that book and those who would enjoy this show overlap at least 90%.)
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I loved World War Z. Loved it. I even enjoyed tormenting my family with talk about preparing for such an event.
Why is it that I can read about Zombies and be highly entertained, but I cannot actually watch them? I can read about Zombie gore and deal with it, but I can't watch this show without turning away from each and every zombie.
So, that's what I do. I fast forward the zombie parts and watch the others trying to survive.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It's possible to eat 5-year-old tootsie rolls as well as chocolate ganache, but why would you want to?
We got it. you don't like this show. You can leave it alone now, especially if you aren't even going to watch it.
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posted
If you want to never hear any dissent, get a blog and disable comments.
The things I dislike about The Walking Dead are precisely what World War Z does so well - the human element, under immense presure, and how it responds. There isn't a stereotype in the entire book (unless the otaku kid counts - not in my cultural stable of stereotypes). On the other hand, the show seems to be nothing but.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Okay. Obviously the show is not for you. To the extent that you won't even watch it but you'll make it a persistent point to the extent of derailing this thread with how much you want others to stop watching it. So, you can stop that now, but feel free to take it somewhere else!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I do think, Katie, that you're officially on the record as disliking cartoonish hillbillies. You can probably stop now, that dislike having been logged for posterity.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I just want to register the fantastic irony of "You don't like it? Ignore it. Paying attention just pays attention."
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Rick is a bit redeemed in my eyes, but only some. I guess I'm fickle, but after the third episode (which I finally watched last night, though it had been on my DVR since Sunday - my interest has definitely waned), we see some heroic character traits - he said he could not leave the guy to die on the roof from thirst and exposure, because he was a human being. Yeah, I agree. At the same time, endangering his wife and child by leaving when they had evidence of zombies in the area....I kinda agree with scumbag Shane.
His wife is more redeemed for me because scumbag Shane told her that her husband was dead. That eliminates my argument that she shouldn't be sleeping around when she doesn't know if her husband is alive or dead. It still feels a little quick for me, but whatever.
quote:The other key high point was the reunion between Rick and Carl. I'm so glad it wasn't over dramatized. I feel like any other show would have thrown in some excessive slow motion or something really over the top. Instead we got this lovely moment and the look on Rick's face when he saw his family...just perfect.
Agreed. It was a great scene.
I agree also with the over-the-top abusive stereotype of the abusive husband. The whole division of labor thing and jumping back in time to a day when women did "women's work" - I don't know....I can see that under great duress the worst of people's personalities might come out but I can't see things going that far, that fast.
As a southerner, I can tell you I know a lot of people who hunt, fish, and fit the "redneck" stereotype pretty well and none of them would treat women that way. I'm not saying they don't exist - every cultural group has its jerks, but I think it's just a bit much.
kat, glad you liked World War Z. It is amazing! I think it's one of the most riveting books I've ever read, regardless of genre. It definitely holds your attention.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: ... There isn't a stereotype in the entire book (unless the otaku kid counts - not in my cultural stable of stereotypes). On the other hand, the show seems to be nothing but.
I'd have to disagree here.
As I pointed out before, while I love the book, pretty much every non-American portrayal is a broad well-worn stereotype. From the British man with a stiff upper lip to the "blind swordsman" (updated to shovel-wielding) in Japan.
What it perhaps doesn't have is American stereotypes.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I was trying to figure out what katherina didn't like, then went and reread the previous page (I skimmed it the first time) and then realize I totally skipped over that long conversation in the beginning of the first episode. Not because it was sexist, just because it was boring. (I tried listening at first, my eyes kept glazing over, until I finally just fast forwarded until something actually happened. I got that they were trying to establish the characters before the apocalypse, but it was such a boring conversation. Gah).
So my perception of the show's been based on that section being edited out. There are definitely stereotypes ahoy in the show, but they seem like the sort of basic stereotypes you give a television character as an initial hook, which are later expounded on. Not the greatest of writing techniques, but not the worst IMO.
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quote:Rick is a bit redeemed in my eyes, but only some. I guess I'm fickle, but after the third episode (which I finally watched last night, though it had been on my DVR since Sunday - my interest has definitely waned), we see some heroic character traits - he said he could not leave the guy to die on the roof from thirst and exposure, because he was a human being.
I'm in the odd position of hoping that these decisions which redeem people are appropriately rare for the subject of zombie apocalypse fiction, which ultimately boils down to the real enemy being us / zombies as mirrors of our own tendencies, etc.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:The whole division of labor thing and jumping back in time to a day when women did "women's work" - I don't know....I can see that under great duress the worst of people's personalities might come out but I can't see things going that far, that fast.
Actually, I think this part is pretty credible. I don't think society would have to collapse for too long before women were suddenly doing all the manual housekeeping crap again, except in those rare cases where they were able to successfully make a point of not doing it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I seem to be the only one who doesn't agree with you, Tom - in discussions with my husband he assured me that I was incorrect. Oh well, wishful thinking on my part, perhaps.
So I watched tonight's episode. Spoilers, naturally.
* * * * * I like the part about the gangbangers protecting the elderly in the city. Even though, as Darryl asutely pointed out, they are not going to survive much longer - that's still a human thing to do. That's what I came for - the glimpses of humanity in the midst of chaos and terror.
What I did not come for is the overly graphic depictions of zombies tearing flesh from bodies. Yes, I know that's what they do - yes, I know it's a zombie show. It has gone a bit too far for me. I know it's cable, but geez AMC. I said that last week would likely be my last week....I gave it another chance (mainly because my 17 year old wanted to watch it and we decided to watch it together tonight), but I'm just not sure.
Those of you who have read the comics - how faithful is it? Should I just read the comics? Or should I just go back and re-read World War Z and call it a day with "The Walking Dead?"
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Well, to be fair, the comic is, if anything, gorier. So if you don't like the graphic depictions, then you won't like it very much.
The part with the gangbangers was definitely great. They showed their humanity, and I loved how the situation just... diffused when the old lady came in. It was a lovely way to end that. I love the look on Rick's face especially, and how he does, finally, give them some of the guns.
So, this episode kind of reaffirmed what I like about this series. The humanity that was present in the first episode.
Kirkman was interviewed about the third episode lately, and had some interesting things to say about it.
quote: A lot of the actors in the press have been saying things like, “It really takes three episodes for you to see what this show is about.” And I think that’s true. The first three episodes are very different. The first one is slow and methodical and focuses entirely on Rick. The second one adds a few characters and is very action-packed, and has a very quick pace. And then the third episode is much more character-driven than the other two episodes. I think from those three episodes you can see the three different things that this show is planning on doing — sometimes in the same episode. I think there is a mixture of these elements in the fourth episode. I think that these three styles can exist in one show is pretty awesome and people are really going to dig it.
---
Anyway, a lot of the stuff from the comics is here. Still, they're expanding things. The gangbangers weren't there originally. There were a lot fewer survivors, even at this point. Still, I kind of like how there are still more pockets of survivors out there. The world just felt a little too empty in the comics, even though it seems obvious that with the straight lines the characters go, they're probably missing, like, 90% if not more of the survivors they would have crossed, by luck and spending most of their time in one spot.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
The series kind of announced rather blatantly at the beginning 'yo, we're blowing out some brains here, we're not going to play it mild on this one'
So, continue to count on the stuff that turns off the squeamish.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
It's not zombie kills that squick me out, it's human characters I've gotten to know, even a little bit, being eaten alive and screaming. And shots of zombies pulling chunks of flesh off with their teeth...maybe I'm just a bit too squeamish for it.
That's okay - I mean, the show is not for everyone. Maybe I'll continue to watch it from the DVR and just fast forward through the gorier bits. We'll see.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I agree. It was definitely stronger. But no, there's no evidence the guy led the zombies to them. Still, I expected him to reappear already!
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posted
Belle, I would HIGHLY suggest you AVOID the comic. I was raised on horror movies and even I was shocked by how quickly and violently the author would kill off beloved characters. The books are full of murder, beheadings, torture, cannibalism, and a dozen horrible ways that human beings can kill each other. Women and very young characters are not spared gruesome ends.
SPOILERS...
I know Rick and the search party were worried that he would be returning with a vengeance, but I don't remember seeing Merle at any point during the zombie attack. I did watch the episode around midnight so I was pretty tired and might have missed him.
I just assumed that a random swarm had stumbled onto the survivors' camp.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Belle, I would HIGHLY suggest you AVOID the comic. I was raised on horror movies and even I was shocked by how quickly and violently the author would kill off beloved characters. The books are full of murder, beheadings, torture, cannibalism, and a dozen horrible ways that human beings can kill each other. Women and very young characters are not spared gruesome ends.
Well, I certainly need to avoid that comic, forever. *shutters* Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Slow zombies lure people into a false sense of safety. "Oh look, I can out-walk this zombie." But sometimes one zombie has five more behind it and then five more behind them and pretty soon the living are overwhelmed. The temptation for complacency is what usually results in more attacks and higher body counts.
As for the most recent episode...wow...talk about a departure from the graphic novel. I was at a friend's house watching Dexter so I had to record Walking Dead. I was fast-forwarding during the commercials and almost skipped the whole scene with the CDC guy. It was just so out of right field.
I like that the show is adding extra twists and turns, but I'd also like it to check in more with the graphic novel's plot points. Fewer detours, please!
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Well, to be honest, how else are they gonna keep to the content from chapter one in this first season, if they don't?
It seems obvious to me that that's what they're doing. Heck, they've already started their Zombie Trek, and I won't be surprised if the next episode ends the way the comic did. After all, they're already building up to it a LOT. This CDC thing is clearly a needed detour for that. Also... seeing the preview for the next episode, I think it'll be interesting in its own right, and that's okay for me!
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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The temptation for complacency is nice, but I have to admit that the fast zombies (Dawn remake) gives a case for fast zombies = we're all deadPosts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I was extremely disappointed with this episode. If you only get six episodes, for love of god, those six episodes need to actually be coherent and you do not introduce some random new plot thread in your final episode and then resolve it immediately.
The climax of your half-season should involve... I dunno. Zombies. Not some random building that apparently wasn't even in the comic.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I enjoyed the first episode a lot, but the cliches kept on piling up episode after episode, and the final episode was pretty disappointing.
I'm going to stick with it for at least the start of the next season, but I'm not awaiting it eagerly anytmore.
It's also interesting how different people came to this show for different reasons. I've seen a few people post in this thread that they like the moments of hope and goodness in the show. I actually find that the show is just not as relentlessly bleak as I'd hoped it would be. With the change in writing staff, I'm not sure what direction it will go from here.
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