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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The (Clean) Piracy Thread

   
Author Topic: The (Clean) Piracy Thread
Geraine
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The other thread was locked due to some ToS violations, but I thought the discussion on piracy was a good one. Please do not admit to performing any illegal activities, as we do not want this thread locked.

I wanted to bring up the recent hoopla regarding Sony and the Playstation 3. When the Playstation 3 was released Sony claimed that it was the most secure system out there. It took almost 4 years before the first jailbreak was released. The 360 was jailbroken in a matter of months.

Sony is now scrambling to plug the leak but are having a tough time of it. They released firmware to combat it but word is the new firmware was hacked in a matter of hours. Sony has also opened a lawsuit against the hacker that released the jailbreak.

I'm not really against jailbreaking as long as it is not used for illegal purposes. If you legally own a game and would like to copy it onto your hard drive to obtain faster load times, I'm OK with that.

To me it seems like a waste of resources. It takes a lot of time and money to come up with fixes to the jailbreaking issue. Sony has been struggling with the PSP jailbreak for years, and they have yet to be able to overcome it.

Nintendo seems to be a little more lax when it comes to jailbroken consoles. They are still making a ton of money and they have done little to fight jailbroken Wii consoles.

Sony may decide to do what Microsoft does and ban consoles that are using a jailbroken console, which would be unfortunate. While there are many that take advantage of the jailbreak to perform illegal activities, there are many that simply want features the jailbreak offers that Sony has removed or refuses to support.

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Mucus
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IIRC, jailbreaking is explicitly legal now in the US and has been legal the whole time elsewhere. So it should be a pretty separate issue from piracy.
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Geraine
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I agree, but jailbreaking makes it infinitely easier to pirate in the console gaming world. While it may be legal, it is really the gateway to illegal activity. You can unpack a brand new computer and start pirating in a matter of minutes without modifying anything. Consoles have to be modified physically or through firmware updates.

Jailbreaking isn't wrong, but it opens up the floodgates for illegal activity. I have a jailbroken PS3. All of the games on my hard drive I actually own. The problem is that I cannot connect to the Playstation Network because I may get banned. Not a big deal to me, but I am using it legally. Sony has every right to ban me as they can make the rules for their own network, it just seems to me that console gaming companies go a little overboard on it.

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Blayne Bradley
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My problem with sooner was removing the ability to install Linux and thus prompting the aboveforementioned failbreaking.

Sony; Do not MESS with people who install LINUX on their Playstations.

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Geraine
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I had Ubuntu installed on my PS3 at one time, and I loved it. It was like having a gaming console and a media computer in one. It was nice to easily be able to access certain media websites such as Hulu and Netflix (Before they were offered on the PSN)

The federal government had even purchased numerous PS3's specifically for the Other OS feature, and was used to crack pedophile's passwords. The PS3s were about 25% of the cost of the computers that would have been needed to perform the same job.

It is a shame that Sony removed the feature, but I guess they have every right to.

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MattP
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quote:
The PS3s were about 25% of the cost of the computers that would have been needed to perform the same job.
Part of the reason for this is that Sony sold PS3s at a loss with the reasonable expectation that most people would buy enough games to offset that loss. If a significant number of machines were purchased for non-gaming purposes than Sony stood to lose a lot of money. I suspect, however, that the ability to install Linux was just removed because there wasn't a huge number of people using that feature and every feature has costs to support and maintain and increases the QA "surface area" of the product.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:

Jailbreaking isn't wrong, but it opens up the floodgates for illegal activity.

Owning a lighter isn't wrong, but it allows you to smoke crack... I mean, really, what's the issue here? You own it, you wanna jailbreak it? Cool. You wanna steal? That's wrong. I guess if you're the kind of person that can't stand to have a lighter in the house because it might lead to you smoking crack, then you should just not jailbreak your console.
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Geraine
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I'm with you on that Orincoro. I own a jailbroken PS3. I love it. When I purchase a game I load it onto my Hard Drive.

Your comparison is a good one. The issue I have is that Sony thinks you shouldn't be able to jailbreak their machine, so they want to remove the ability altogether.

No jailbreak = no piracy. That is how Sony sees it. I can understand their point, my argument is that it shouldn't be up to them. If I bought the console it is mine. If Sony wants to ban me from their Network, that is fine. If there is a multiplayer game I want to play, I'll give the revenue to someone else.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
The PS3s were about 25% of the cost of the computers that would have been needed to perform the same job.
Part of the reason for this is that Sony sold PS3s at a loss with the reasonable expectation that most people would buy enough games to offset that loss. If a significant number of machines were purchased for non-gaming purposes than Sony stood to lose a lot of money.
This is what really bugs me about the gaming industry right now. What other industry sells products at a loss, which are specifically designed *not* to be used to their full potential, in order to sell more products that allow the licenser of those products to make money? I'm just trying to think of another example, and I can't right now. Printers maybe? Cell phones?

In both cases anyway, it's a fairly clear sign that the technology has rushed way ahead of their ability to monetize the market properly, but instead of innovating more dynamically, they just retard certain areas of progress in order to hang onto the same market stake they already had. I understand the objective- selling more consoles means a wider market for games, means more games sales and more games made, while higher priced consoles mean less market for games, means fewer games made and sold, but it just strikes me as ass backwards anyway.

quote:
I can understand their point, my argument is that it shouldn't be up to them. If I bought the console it is mine.
Yes I agree. And the last time Sony tried to forfend piracy at the cost of legitimate private use, they screwed up royally. And the time before that, with VCRs, *they* were the ones on the side of consumers. Too bad they don't have such a good memory.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
I had Ubuntu installed on my PS3 at one time, and I loved it. It was like having a gaming console and a media computer in one. It was nice to easily be able to access certain media websites such as Hulu and Netflix (Before they were offered on the PSN)

The federal government had even purchased numerous PS3's specifically for the Other OS feature, and was used to crack pedophile's passwords. The PS3s were about 25% of the cost of the computers that would have been needed to perform the same job.

It is a shame that Sony removed the feature, but I guess they have every right to.

Nope I disagree, I think they had zero right or at least zero sympathy for removing features that people paid explicitly for; if I bought a PS3 just so I could have Ubuntu on it (as well as games) and had I routinely updated the firmware and had that functionality removed I would have been furious.

Of course mine got stolen from me so it was a moot point, but people have every right to be furious at Sony for removing critical functionality and every right to jailbreak it to restore said functionality (which they did).


"It is not cool to take features away from your products just because you don't want to support them anymore.

You know what? I agree with the guys who kicked down the doors of the PS3 if you bought a PS3 as a Linux box because Sony told you you could install other OS on it, and you find that capability removed by the manufacturer you have every right to restore the functionality you paid for regardless what the EULA says." - Extra Credits.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
It is a shame that Sony removed the feature, but I guess they have every right to.

This is far from certain to be a "right."

For example, there is a case proceeding in Europe that basically argues that unreasonably removing features from sold hardware is illegal.

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Kwea
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I believe there is a court case here in the US as well, specifically about the PS3.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
I believe there is a court case here in the US as well, specifically about the PS3.

That is interesting. I'll have to look it up.

The reason I said I thought Sony had the right to remove the feature was because they own the firmware. You have a choice not to upgrade the firmware that removes the feature, and at the same time give up the ability to play on their networks.

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MattP
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quote:
The reason I said I thought Sony had the right to remove the feature was because they own the firmware.
That's really beside the point. They old a product as having a specific feature and then removed that feature from it after people had already purchased it. The particular mechanism by which they did it is incidental.

quote:
You have a choice not to upgrade the firmware that removes the feature, and at the same time give up the ability to play on their networks.
The UI just tells you that there is a required update. It gives no indication that it may or may not remove functionality from the device. You can't reasonably argue that answering this his prompt represent an informed decision.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
I believe there is a court case here in the US as well, specifically about the PS3.

That is interesting. I'll have to look it up.

The reason I said I thought Sony had the right to remove the feature was because they own the firmware. You have a choice not to upgrade the firmware that removes the feature, and at the same time give up the ability to play on their networks.

Which is arbitrary coercion to your loyal customers who bought the system legally.
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mr_porteiro_head
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While not exactly the same, the topic is closely related to the "Maker's Bill of Rights" or the "Maker's Manifesto":

quote:

# Meaningful and specific parts lists shall be included.
# Cases shall be easy to open.
# Batteries should be replaceable.
# Special tools are allowed only for darn good reasons.
# Profiting by selling expensive special tools is wrong and not making special tools available is even worse.
# Torx is OK; tamperproof is rarely OK.
# Components, not entire sub-assemblies, shall be replaceable.
# Consumables, like fuses and filters, shall be easy to access.
# Circuit boards shall be commented.
# Power from USB is good; power from proprietary power adapters is bad.
# Standard connecters shall have pinouts defined.
# If it snaps shut, it shall snap open.
# Screws better than glues.
# Docs and drivers shall have permalinks and shall reside for all perpetuity at archive.org.
# Ease of repair shall be a design ideal, not an afterthought.
# Metric or standard, not both.
# Schematics shall be included.

While I think calling it a "right" is hyperbole, I will say that I would much prefer to deal with a company that lets (and even encourages) me to have full ownership of those things that I have paid for.
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Juxtapose
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Incidentally, many of those points are important in green design.
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capaxinfiniti
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"Maker's Manifesto":
quote:

# Meaningful and specific parts lists shall be included.
# Cases shall be easy to open.
# Batteries should be replaceable.
# Special tools are allowed only for darn good reasons.
# Profiting by selling expensive special tools is wrong and not making special tools available is even worse.
# Torx is OK; tamperproof is rarely OK.
# Components, not entire sub-assemblies, shall be replaceable.
# Consumables, like fuses and filters, shall be easy to access.
# Circuit boards shall be commented.
# Power from USB is good; power from proprietary power adapters is bad.
# Standard connecters shall have pinouts defined.
# If it snaps shut, it shall snap open.
# Screws better than glues.
# Docs and drivers shall have permalinks and shall reside for all perpetuity at archive.org.
# Ease of repair shall be a design ideal, not an afterthought.
# Metric or standard, not both.
# Schematics shall be included.

this is why Apple fails in my opinion. they engage in most of those practices with little concern for the consumer.
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The Black Pearl
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You will always remember this as the day.
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Stephan
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My Wii is hacked. I didn't do it for piracy. I did it because I wanted to take my legally purchased dvd collecttion and stream it via WiiMC. Then I did it to install my legally purchased games to a hard drive.

It is always those who actually buy things legally that are punished. Why should I have to break the law to rip a dvd I purchased to my hard drive? I could torrent it in 10 minutes, it takes about 20 - 30 minutes to rip an AVI myself.

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Geraine
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I read through the a couple of the lawsuits, and I have to admit that the prosecution may have a case.

Sony advertised the Other OS feature as part of the value of the PS3. The PS3 had a price tag of $599, and part of the reason given for the price was that the PS3 was not just a game system, it was a computer! Sony executives repeatedly brought up the Other OS feature as part of their speeches, even going so far as to say that it was important to them and that they would support it.

Because of that, I think this guy and his lawyer may have a real shot at winning the lawsuit.

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Sterling
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It's sort of a sad irony that this is the console advertised under the slogan "It only does everything".

I sympathize with their wanting to control piracy, but they're going about this all wrong. Lawsuits aren't going to stop this; they're just going to mobilize the hacker community. The fact that Sony has misbehaved with regard to respecting other peoples' hardware in the past (the CD rootkit debacle) isn't going to help their case.

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Herblay
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Geraine,

You can actually download games to your hard drive on your jailbroken PS3? I've tried finding some resource or tutorial, and it doesn't seem possible. Can you point me in the right direction?

I softmodded my Wii, and it's outstanding. I don't have to CONSTANTLY keep changing disks for my kids, scared to death that they'd scratch MarioKart . . . again.

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