FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Language in Ender's Game? (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Language in Ender's Game?
DDDaysh
Member
Member # 9499

 - posted      Profile for DDDaysh   Email DDDaysh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm... "Ender's Game" vs "The Hunger Games"...

I wonder which would win "The Most Twisted Book with Child Violence" award.

Don't get me wrong, I loved EG and THG pretty much had me hooked as well, but man, they both give you some extremely powerful mental images.

Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Belle
Member
Member # 2314

 - posted      Profile for Belle   Email Belle         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I couldn't get past the writing in present tense in The Hunger Games. Drove me batty.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Flying Fish
Member
Member # 12032

 - posted      Profile for Flying Fish   Email Flying Fish         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If your son's elementary school has a librarian, you might speak to them. If not, try speaking to some of the staff librarians at your public library. You may strike out and get no useful information whatsoever, but you also may be pleasantly surprised.

A lot of children's and young adult literature publishers provide school librarians very detailed information on exactly what would be a good fit for an individual child. For example, publishers have a whole sub-genre of books which have mature themes and don't look "babyish," but which are readable by teens who read at an elementary level. (not that that's what your son is looking for, but you get the point).

BTW, my son is 12 and reads at a high level. He recently picked up Ender's Game and put it down after the first chapter. He didn't want to read farther and I didn't push it. I don't think it was for the language; I just think he doesn't want to read something that intense "for fun."

Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nighthawk
Member
Member # 4176

 - posted      Profile for Nighthawk   Email Nighthawk         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Fish:
If your son's elementary school has a librarian, you might speak to them.

The librarian at my son's school had never heard of Ender's Game.

Maybe you'll have better luck in public schools, though. [Dont Know]

Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
It occurred to me after I read JT's post that there were likely other parents on Hatrack that would appreciate them.

Definitely.

Although my son manages pretty well between his school library and filching stuff off my bookshelf, I'm not always entirely thrilled by what he's reading. [Wink]

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lyndsayb:
Wow! I was a little worried people would think this was a silly topic, but I didn't expect quite this response! Thanks to everyone for your help!

My son is 11 years old, but reads well above his grade level, which makes it tricky to find books that are at his reading level, but not at an adult level as far as content.

I usually do read the books he is reading, but I have just been crazy busy and haven't had time to read these, yet. Hence the post on the forum!

I'm glad that I didn't come to check for replies until after some posts were removed, so I will not be offended!

Phanto - I agree, the original version is better. I'm so fed up with how everything is babyed-down now, there's no good vs. evil, no true winners. Ugh. My kids don't even get letter grades anymore so that no one is better than anyone else (oops, I'll step off that high horse now, that's a whole new topic!)!!

Blayne Bradley - thank you for your reply, it was truly helpful. My son goes to public school, shops with me at Wal*Mart, etc., so he's been exposed to lots of "lovely" words. He does not like listening to or reading foul language. I do not have any concerns of his repeating the words. It seems there are hardly any books w/o language in them, I appreciate the help in your reply with me helping him to understand the language in books better.

Orincoro - I'm sorry you found my question idiotic.

Strider - (great name, btw) Another great reply. Thank you.

Rakeesh - thanks for your reply.

Rivka - yes, it is because he is mormon that I assumed his books would be language-free. I've never read any of his books before.

Scott R - Thank you for answering my question and for your compliment on my family!! My son is one great kid!

Samprimary and C3PO - Thank you both, I appreciate the help with helping my son deal with reading books that contain language he is turned off by.

Again, thanks to everyone (including JanitorBlade for editing some posts) for your help with this. You really have been very helpful!!

Lyndi (Or maybe it's Lynda? I'm assuming thats your name behind your name) if you are interested in some recommendations for your son I highly recommend "The Stonekeeper" of the 'Amulet' series by Kazu Kibuishi, they are in graphic novels (re: 200 page soft cover comic books each) and about 12$ at your book store.

I can tell you that I vividly remember being 11 and I know for a fact that this book would have been my favorite book of all time and I see no swearing in it at all and seems very much aimed at the 10-18 crowd (and I'm 23-24 and heartily enjoy it).

It's very much the Ur-Example of young adult adventure novel and seems to have great story telling in it.

Link

They even have a robot rabbit (or is it a hare?) sidekick, that's awesome!

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Fish:
If your son's elementary school has a librarian, you might speak to them.

The librarian at my son's school had never heard of Ender's Game.

Maybe you'll have better luck in public schools, though. [Dont Know]

I saw it on my 9th grade english teachers desk.

I thought the name was cool, "is it about people playing games?"

So I borrowed it.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I read and re-read The Harper Hall Trilogy by Anne McCaffrey when I was that age, nice and innocent fantasy with a side of sexual equality by way of a young woman following her love of music despite being forced into a life of virtual servitude as all women of her home. There is no foul language and I remember it as being quite mature, the first book actually begins with the protagonist performing a eulogy of sorts for her music teacher and only friend.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Anna
Member
Member # 2582

 - posted      Profile for Anna           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What about the Bartimaeus series?
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Swampjedi
Member
Member # 7374

 - posted      Profile for Swampjedi   Email Swampjedi         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As an aside, I (as a college student) could barely stomach Mary Sue Menolly in the Harper books. But YMMV, especially for kids.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CT
Member
Member # 8342

 - posted      Profile for CT           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's also the Susan Cooper series (including The Dark is Rising) and Richard Adams' Watership Down. Hmm. For the noir detective feel, maybe Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series?
Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Its not for small children due to the complexity, but yes the book is not meant for adults and especially college students but other books in the Pern series are more geared towards adults while remaining somewhat innocent due to McCaffrey's writing style.

I submitted my referance because the series is non-offensive while written with a greater eye to detail and character develpment and feature story after story about self reliance.

I happen to like Mennolly and her self-made instruments.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ambyr
Member
Member # 7616

 - posted      Profile for ambyr           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I do understand the OP's basic concern. But am I the only one whose first reaction when encountering those worried about books containing "language" is to recommend The Arrival?

It's like my long-ago dormmate who, upon happening across me playing a Scrabble game with words like "theta" and "aleph" spelled out on the board, shouted out to the world, "Oh my G-d! They're playing Scrabble with letters!"

Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zgator
Member
Member # 3833

 - posted      Profile for zgator   Email zgator         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
For the noir detective feel, maybe Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series?
I have a hard enough time keeping my son from the dark side. He doesn't need to read that robbing banks is actually good for the economy and society in general. [Embarrassed]
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CT
Member
Member # 8342

 - posted      Profile for CT           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[ROFL]

Heavens, I loved those books.

Posts: 831 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nighthawk
Member
Member # 4176

 - posted      Profile for Nighthawk   Email Nighthawk         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zgator:
I have a hard enough time keeping my son from the dark side. He doesn't need to read that robbing banks is actually good for the economy and society in general. [Embarrassed]

Oooo.... I gotta give that one to my son, 'cause lord knows I'm not going to support him forever! [Wink]
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zgator:
quote:
For the noir detective feel, maybe Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series?
I have a hard enough time keeping my son from the dark side. He doesn't need to read that robbing banks is actually good for the economy and society in general. [Embarrassed]
Or, worse yet, that Esperanto is a GOOD thing.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zgator
Member
Member # 3833

 - posted      Profile for zgator   Email zgator         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've heard that The Stainless Steel Rat for Presidentis required reading for would-be dictators needing to rig an election. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a big fan of Harrison.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Swampjedi
Member
Member # 7374

 - posted      Profile for Swampjedi   Email Swampjedi         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Its not for small children due to the complexity, but yes the book is not meant for adults and especially college students but other books in the Pern series are more geared towards adults while remaining somewhat innocent due to McCaffrey's writing style.

Absolutely, I'd agree that the Harper books are pretty safe. Others aren't so kid friendly, if I remember. It's a rather dissonant series of books at times.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AlphaEnder
Member
Member # 12514

 - posted      Profile for AlphaEnder   Email AlphaEnder         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lyndsayb:
My son recently started reading Ender's Game (received the quartet for Christmas). However, he has come across some language in the book and he's not sure he wants to finish it if there will be many more "bad words". I thought getting a book by OSC would be pretty safe as far as language goes. So, can anyone who has read the books let me know, does the language continue throughout the series?

Thanks!!

What others suggested is right. Perhaps you should be reading what he reads first if you are uncomfortable with "bad words". Also, there are ways to look up content in books and see what others think it should be "rated": http://www.commonsensemedia.org/book-reviews/enders-game

That site hold ratings and reviews by parents that give you an idea of the themes, iffy stuff, and general age of who (or is it whom?) should be reading/watching/playing it.

Perhaps you thought that since OSC is LDS that he would be clean? To contrast that, I would suggest reading Saints, the Homecoming series, or Magic Street. Fantastic books, imo, but just because he's LDS does not mean he'll have a squeaky clean book. He won't make it filthy though, because it's not necessary to the storyline.

Also, someone up there suggested the Bartimaeus series (Anna). These books were absolutely fantastic, some of my young adult fantasy books I've ever read.

Alpha

[ February 28, 2011, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: AlphaEnder ]

Posts: 20 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lyndsayb
New Member
Member # 12506

 - posted      Profile for lyndsayb           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you dkw for that list, I can't wait to check it out.

I decided to have my son wait until I can read the books at the same time, so we can discuss anything he is uncomfortable with. Hopefully that will be in the next few months.

El JT de Spang, I don't think he's heard of the Hunger Games, I keep debating over whether or not I want to even read them, they sound just too depressing!! But, I know I'll give in soon and read them, at which point he'll probably want to read them as well.

Thanks again everyone for your help and great ideas!

Posts: 3 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MAllenBadger
New Member
Member # 12575

 - posted      Profile for MAllenBadger           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
If you want to help your son enjoy these books without being turned off by the bad language ... Or if he doesn't want to read any books with offensive language, period, you could give him "Pathfinder," which is devoid of offensive language and is a great first helping of OSC's fiction.

Off the top of my head, here's a list of books by OSC you should stay away from if you really don't want your son exposed to "bad words" for the reason that they're "bad words."

1. The first three or four Alvin Maker books.
2. The Homecoming Series (not for the language itself, but because of the frequency of adulteries and marital arrangements our society might find objectionable)
3. Hart's Hope (again, I don't remember specifics about the language itself, but there is some content that is most certainly not for children)
4. Xenocide and Children of the Mind (contain a few instances of b****, but I don't remember anything else that might be objectionable there)
5. The Lost Gate (has an occasional swear, but I'm basing the inclusion of this book mostly on the references to child molestation)

I think Ender in Exile, Speader for the Dead, the Shadow books, Pathfinder, Invasive Procedures (not really written by OSC, though he did have a major role that book's creation), and Empire have minimal language, so you could look into those.


Dear C3PO, Thanks so much for this post. This was very helpful. I am an adult (~35) and had read dozens of Card's opinion and news pieces, so I picked up Ender's Game interested in reading some of his books. I was turned off by the language and quit the story halfway through and had given up on Card's books. Perhaps I'll try Pathfinder and give him another chance.

I have to admit that I am concerned though as I read the rest of your response and down the list of responses on this thread. Everyone seems to agree that the foul language is needed to tell the story. I disagree. Try reading "The Lonesome Gods" by Louis L'Amour. No profanity, but no lack of intensity, excitement, emotion. I can't see why there is a need for it. Someone once said that profanity was the “vain attempt of the ignorant mind to express itself.” Is that OSC? I suppose you could argue that he has characters that can’t be expressed in any other way, but I would still disagree.

Card himself gives an interesting take on this in the following post:

http://www.hatrack.com/research/questions/q0071.shtml

He explains nicely how having foul language in something can jolt the audience so they loose the effect of the story and hear nothing but the language amplified, out of place, and used this to explain why he removed the n* word from this book. I am surprised that he can write that and not realize that many potential readers are being blasted not just by the n* word but by f*, s* b*, etc... until they have to abandon his books and find another author.

Sure, I could read more literature with profanity and desensitize myself to it, then maybe I would enjoy Ender's Game, and others of Card’s books, but why should I? Apparently Card is not writing for me, but for those who are so immersed in pop culture that they are not offended by these things. Maybe they even require these words to feel that the story is real. I suppose I’ll take a look at the Pathfinder and see...

Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MAllenBadger: I always felt the language in Ender's Game was designed to reflect the attitudes that very intelligent but immature teenage boys and girls would have towards profanity. Kids at that age (at least myself and many of the kids I encountered) certainly used swears as a sort of token for not being little children anymore, even though there are of course much better expressions for growing out of childhood.

I certainly swore much more around that age, than I ever do now as an adult. It's not that I don't believe in swearing ever, it's just I have more words that I can access now, and I have a better grip as to what excessive swearing makes me sound like.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jeff C.
Member
Member # 12496

 - posted      Profile for Jeff C.           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Someone once said that profanity was the “vain attempt of the ignorant mind to express itself.” Is that OSC?
I agree that cursing in the real world can be that way, but it is not the case for a novel or any other piece of fiction. It's writing realistically, giving characters a real world flair, even if you don't actually talk like that yourself.

Ender's Game is about a bunch of kids growing up in a military school. It's only natural for them to develop a tendancy for vulgar language, so to expect otherwise is to say that you want your novels to be as unrealistic as possible. Ender rarely uses any kind of sour language because he's smart enough and wise enough to understand that he doesn't need to, but not all kids are like that.

You have to remember that the real world is not made out of rainbows and sunshine. It is dark, scary, and full of nasty words like "poop", "poppycock", and "scallywag", among other things. [Big Grin]

Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Someone once said that profanity was the “vain attempt of the ignorant mind to express itself.” Is that OSC
The version I've heard is along the lines that it is "the vain attempt of a weak mind to forcibly express itself", and I've usually heard it attributed to LDS leaders, mostly Spencer W. Kimball.

---

quote:
It's only natural for them to develop a tendancy for vulgar language, so to expect otherwise is to say that you want your novels to be as unrealistic as possible.
If you stop and think about it, you know that what you just said isn't true. Just because somebody doesn't like realism in one aspect doesn't mean that want everything to be as unrealistic as possible.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jeff C.
Member
Member # 12496

 - posted      Profile for Jeff C.           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
True. I may have mispoke in that regard.

Anyway, I stand by the actual point of my post, which was simply that the language is there for a reason. It's not there because the author is ignorant and cannot express their views or characters well enough, but rather that the character is just that way, because sometimes people are like that in the real world.

Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's a valid point. It would have been made more effectively if you hadn't resorted to extending it beyond what is reasonable.

[ May 20, 2011, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Swearing can touch nicely on the verve of the human condition. I would, of course, object to the notion that it's "the vain attempt of a weak mind to forcibly express itself" because it can be so much more, and has so often been more.

Welp, time to go watch Pulp Fiction again.

Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2