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As an unarmed wussy woman who would probably be walking down the street with 2 young kids, I can understand the calling the police and not doing anything else. But in case of fire, I would also probably call 911 not help personally.
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I'm fascinated by how quickly this thread derailed from the OP into a conversation about women.
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8) I am only claiming attire is a factor in the possibility of being raped, it's called provocative because it entices sexual feelings, it's just a factor. Just like flashing your money around makes theifs more likely to steal from you, but it's kinda obvious they aren't going to try to rob you just because they see you have money, but you also have to appear vulnerable too. ---------------- Lyrhawn it's kinda hard to stay on topic, rape on males just seems so uncommon as it is, it's usually between friends/family and not strangers (outside of prison XD), I think the best action would be to educate them about their parts, and what to do if someone starts messing with them. It's also important for the parents to listen to them as well. ----------------- (Hard to align things with the small edit menu) Applies for both genders I believe; US Bureau of Justice Statistics Source: |Current/Former Partner| Another Relative|Friend or Acquaintance|Stranger| |26%| |7%| |38%| |26%|
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quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I am only claiming attire is a factor in the possibility of being raped
We know that's what you are claiming. You're wrong. Read the studies rather than continuing to repeat myths and misconceptions.
That claim is simply not supported by the data. It reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of rape. The comparison to flashing your money around and robbery is simply off base for several reasons. Most of the time, rape is not a spontaneous crime provoked by sexual arousal. It's planned and motivated more by the desire to dominate and injure than simple sexual urges. Most Rapists have regular sex partners, its not like rape is their only sexual outlet.
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quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Lyrhawn it's kinda hard to stay on topic, rape on males just seems so uncommon as it is, it's usually between friends/family and not strangers
People have been repeatedly trying to tell you that this is the case for women as well.
And your percentages don't add up to 100.
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Really Geraine? really? how dare make such a comment. Sparkly vampires dont rape, they stalk and kidnap.
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quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: . ---------------- Lyrhawn it's kinda hard to stay on topic, rape on males just seems so uncommon as it is, it's usually between friends/family and not strangers (outside of prison XD), I think the best action would be to educate them about their parts, and what to do if someone starts messing with them. It's also important for the parents to listen to them as well.
I think the part of the importance of the OP was that male rape, which includes all sorts of sexual abuse, is not as well understood, and is vastly under reported.
And that all goes back to the stigma against males putting a voice to their own suffering. This is, potentially, one piece of a much larger argument I don't hear very often, and I wonder if this thread is an example of why exactly that is.
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IS IT under reported? Say 100 men were raped this year (just a number now) Of those 100, only 90 report the event. So there's a guarantee that 90 rapes on men happened, but how are you supposed to know about the 10 who didn't. You can't because there's no report on them, but for the sake of the argument I gave that number.
This could be said just the same for females too, it's impossible to tell how many people are raped without them actually reporting it those numbers are just guesses. --------------- Sam despite those things sounding different to you, they sound the same to me. --------------- I have no clue where the 3% is, I got from wikipedia, but it's sourced to (it's on the post above), I have dial up and government websites load slowly /: ---------------- http://tailerag.blogspot.com/2009/08/there-is-discussion-between-me-and.html I read this too, looking for some statistics on clothes association with rape, though it seems that no one bothers looking into the clothes rape victims were wearing at the time.... so the argument on that could swing both ways, due to the lack of information. But I BELIEVE there is some association with clothing >__>
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quote:Sam despite those things sounding different to you, they sound the same to me.
"Dressing provacatively (slutty) is asking for it." "Attire is a factor in being raped."
Let's be clear. Those really, up side by side, sound the same to you, Rawrain? Coherent, reliable sentence structure isn't one of your hallmarks but I'm having a hard time believing someone can't see a difference between 'is a factor in' and 'asking for it'. When you use the term 'asking for it', have you ever used it to mean 'this was a factor in'? Or have you nearly always used it to mean 'I was doing something that I shouldn't have, that set someone else off and they did something to me?' Likewise for people you know.
As for that link...listen. You don't believe in information, statistics, expert opinion. You believe in what you believe-we've seen that on lots of things, most dramatically with bicycle helmets. (That's just the easiest, most striking example.) You're just gonna say, "This is the way things are," for whatever hair-brained dumbass thing you believe in a given moment. It doesn't matter what professionals, criminologists, so on and so fort say. You've got a badly constructed blog to link to! That's sort of like evidence contradicted all kinds of people who work in direct personal involvement with rapists and rape victims all the time, right?
Right? The important thing is, those girls dressed up like sluts had it comin'. And people who object to that kind of talk are boring. The sad thing is, I'm not even taking you out of context.
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It's more like 10 guys report it, 90 go unreported. It also like that for women. What we DO know aboutis the tip of the iceburg.
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Unreported, means not reported to the police. It does not necessarily mean they never told anybody. We know that the total number of rapes is many times greater than the number reported to police because the issue has been well studied by interviewing large number of people, studying the deidentified medical records of doctors and councilors and so forth. One recent study found that only 15% of women who were raped reported it to the police. That number has remained essentially constant over several decades. I'll see if I can find any statistics on male rape.
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quote:Sam despite those things sounding different to you, they sound the same to me.
That's like me saying "Your idea is so stupid that I want to punch you in the face" and then when I am later criticized for advocating violence against your face, I claim that it sounds the exact same to me as just saying "I disagree with your idea a lot."
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quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: . ---------------- Lyrhawn it's kinda hard to stay on topic, rape on males just seems so uncommon as it is, it's usually between friends/family and not strangers (outside of prison XD), I think the best action would be to educate them about their parts, and what to do if someone starts messing with them. It's also important for the parents to listen to them as well.
I think the part of the importance of the OP was that male rape, which includes all sorts of sexual abuse, is not as well understood, and is vastly under reported.
And that all goes back to the stigma against males putting a voice to their own suffering. This is, potentially, one piece of a much larger argument I don't hear very often, and I wonder if this thread is an example of why exactly that is.
I think my OP and the long one that followed it rambled enough to open up many possible directions of this thread. From my perspective, I don't think its gotten off topic except where it degenerated to talking about peoples posting style. If I had a single point in starting this thread, it was that our society has lots of inaccurate myths about rape and that those myths prevent us from finding effective ways to stop it.
The common belief that rape is only a real problem for females, is one of those myths. The perception that rapes happen mostly in dark alleys is one of those myths. The idea that people are most likely to be raped by strangers is one of those myths. The belief that "sluts" are more likely to be raped is one of those myths. These myths and many others are keeping us from coming up with effective programs for stopping rapes.
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Let me give an example. In order to respond to the high incidence of rape on campuses, many colleges and universities have organized escort programs so that women do not need to walk across campus alone at night.
According to one study I've read, 60% of campus rapes occur either in the victim's residence and 31% in another residence. That leaves less than 10% of campus rapes that might possibly be the result of someone being grabbed by a stranger while walking across campus in the dark. So a rape prevention program that focuses on escorting women between buildings is missing the boat.
According to some study's I've read, male and female minors are equally likely to be raped. So rape prevention programs designed for girls, are missing a full half of the problem.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: So a rape prevention program that focuses on escorting women between buildings is missing the boat.
That depends what the goal is. As a marketing tool for the school, it may be right on target. As a way of actually reducing the number of on-campus rapes, I agree it's not the most efficient or effective use of resources. But stranger rapes get more press attention, cause more buzz among students and potential students, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: So a rape prevention program that focuses on escorting women between buildings is missing the boat.
That depends what the goal is. As a marketing tool for the school, it may be right on target. As a way of actually reducing the number of on-campus rapes, I agree it's not the most efficient or effective use of resources. But stranger rapes get more press attention, cause more buzz among students and potential students, etc.
I do sincerely hope that campuses aren't concerned about rape primarily for their image. I also don't have anything against providing escorts to women who feel unsafe walking across campus. I just don't think the best use of resources if our goal is to reduce the total number of rapes.
I think when people have a broader and more realistic view of the rape problem, they can start coming up with better ways to deal with the problem.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I do sincerely hope that campuses aren't concerned about rape primarily for their image.
I agree. But it is a concern, and not an unreasonable one, especially since the people who allocate money generally have to worry about (or report to those who worry about) the bottom line.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I do sincerely hope that campuses aren't concerned about rape primarily for their image.
I agree. But it is a concern, and not an unreasonable one, especially since the people who allocate money generally have to worry about (or report to those who worry about) the bottom line.
I agree. I also think its not unreasonable to consider getting grabbed by a stranger and raped, while walking across campus, to be a more serious crime than many date rapes.
I'm a bit hesitant to say that because I fear some might interpret it as saying date rape isn't a serious crime. It is and I don't mean to say otherwise.
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I would have to disagree w/ Rabbit, I would imagine that date rape is worse then getting grabbed by a stranger.
Instead of someone you don't know, this is someone you had romantic intentions with, someone who you know to some extent and had a reasonable expectation of safety with.
Couple that with you are likely to see them again and possibly receive substantial social pressure to not turn them in and "ruin their lives". Nevermind the huge guilt of picking your (then unknown) rapist and agreeing to go out with them.
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I can think of way too many arguments for each one being the worst. How about we agree that both are bad, and that college campuses (and society at large) should work on reducing both?
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The article says that the serial rapist wore a mask and gloves, used wet naps and made them shower/brush their teeth before he took the bedding and the victim's clothes with him and left. Just because he left no evidence, the cops in Washington decided to prosecute the victim for filing a false report.
Meanwhile, other cops (quite possibly, better ones) in Colorado actually investigated similar cases and found the man responsible.
I'm not usually a fan of suing the police, but I hope this woman does, if only to help deter similar miscarriages of justice in the future. They could have closed the case for lack of evidence, but they went a step further and were vindictive about it. Makes me feel stabby.
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On the flip side, you have the Duke Lacrosse case, where the woman made up the whole thing, and temporarily destroyed the lives of innocent male students. Not prosecuting her was a mistake.
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When you actually have evidence that a false report was made, prosecution is feasible. Prosecuting because you couldn't find evidence that anything happened is a waste of time, energy and resources. The fact that they went to the extreme of prosecuting this woman is indicative of a very negative internal culture.
Rape has the same incidence of false reporting as all other crimes, approximately 2% The Lacrosse guys could also have sued for defamation, I think, but that is beside the point.
Since rape is already under reported to the police, this type of thing can hardly serve to improve those statistics.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: On the flip side, you have the Duke Lacrosse case, where the woman made up the whole thing, and temporarily destroyed the lives of innocent male students. Not prosecuting her was a mistake.
I remember when I was going through orientation for my federal employment, they brought in a team for sexual assault awareness training. The team lead (female) advised us to get consent in writing, and she wasn't kidding.
She also spoke frankly about drunken hookups. She said as a male, it's best to have your buddies refuse to let you go home drunk with a woman. To be clear, even though you're both drunk, the male could be accused of rape (and likely found guilty).
This was a military base, so I think perhaps they were coming down hard on the guys as a preventitive measure. Still, it made me very uncomfortable.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Are you saying that its OK for a guy to force himself on a woman if they are both drunk?
Not unless you're reading a different post than I am.
To me he seems to be saying that in the case of consensual sex between 2 drunk people where later the woman claims is wasn't consensual the man is likely to be prosecuted.
I saw nothing about forcing, and assuming that stupid drunk sex is always forced is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: just_me, The line that bothered me was this one
quote:To be clear, even though you're both drunk, the male could be accused of rape (and likely found guilty).
The implication, at least to me, was that if you were both drunk it couldn't be rape.
My friend went to a party with a guy and both got drunk. She passed out. He took her unconscious body up to a private room and had sex with her. She was unconscious and when she came to she was quite upset, immediately went to the hospital, took day after pill (she was not sexually active at this point so no pill normally) and called the police. Eventually, the judge ruled that since she was drunk of her own volition around him and he was drunk as well, consent was implied- even though she was unconscious and he had to move her to a private room. I am pretty sure my friend is not the only person out there with a similar story. The idea that if both people are drunk it isn't rape is definitely out there with real life consequences so it is important to be careful in what is said.
I think men would want to make sure they aren't committing gray rape, not because of the legality but because they are decent human beings. I would never want any man I slept with to feel like he didn't have a choice in it.
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That judge needs to be removed. That's horrible. That case is obviously rape. Implied consent is a TERRIBLE idea. Wow.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: just_me, The line that bothered me was this one
quote:To be clear, even though you're both drunk, the male could be accused of rape (and likely found guilty).
The implication, at least to me, was that if you were both drunk it couldn't be rape.
I see. That's not how I read it, though. I read it as saying that just because you were both drunk that doesn't automatically make it rape.
There is clearly no black and white here, and it's the grays that get you in trouble and it's clearly better to be overly cautious than to do something stupid.
But if 2 people are of age, drunk and walking around talking and one says "hey, wanna screw" and the other says "sure" then as far as I can see there really isn't basis to claim rape, even if one of them decides the next day that that was a bad decision.
If one of them is unconscious then I think it's pretty clearly rape.
But the in-between gray areas - one being drunk and the other not for example, or one feeling they have to say "sure" because the other is in position of power over them (like a boss) etc etc - are going to have to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
And I've heard horror stories both ways...
Of course to me personally I think if you just keep it in your pants there really isn't an issue.
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