Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Obama to Mandate Gas to be 85% Corn Ethanol?

   
Author Topic: Obama to Mandate Gas to be 85% Corn Ethanol?
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thoughts?

Good, Bad, Ugly?

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
corn ethanol BAD!!! And ugly. One of worst idea ever and partially responsible for starvation all over the world. Also, not all that sustainable. Get the ethanol from bacteria and algae if you must but you don't burn food.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Thoughts?

first thought:

'fact checking articles = good'

Posts: 14155 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
not a dig or anything either, I just .. am full of puzzlement over what's going on here in the article
Posts: 14155 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well a friend linked it to me and he's reading roughly the same information over several different articles, I just asked for just one for the sake of linking it.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
corn ethanol BAD!!! And ugly. One of worst idea ever and partially responsible for starvation all over the world. Also, not all that sustainable. Get the ethanol from bacteria and algae if you must but you don't burn food.

This.
Posts: 12590 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ethanol has been a bad move from the first, in almost every way. It just doesn't make sense. I don't see anything about Obama being a particular proponent of this bill, but there's definitely a group of supporting Senators. This is the worst sort of localism, though: benefiting local farmers to the detriment of both other people in their district and people everywhere else in the US (not to mention elsewhere in the world).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Well a friend linked it to me and he's reading roughly the same information over several different articles, I just asked for just one for the sake of linking it.

Right but while I'd like to discuss the stupidity of an 85% corn ethanol gas mandate, the article is doing everything in its power to warn me off trusting anything it says at face value.

Look at the obama head with money raining down on it.

quote:
The Obama administration is look to "make it rain" for corn farmers, though the rest of Americans may end up footing the bill. (Source: Red Dog Report)
this is red dog report.

http://reddogreport.com/

The entire article is also classified as a 'blog' for one guy. He does not appear to be a professional political, science, or energy commentator, so

Posts: 14155 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IS it actually a "corn ethanol mandate" or just an "ethanol mandate." Going by the bill text that was linked http://thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.+187: I don't see anything specific about corn in which case, mass import of sugar cane ethanol might actually be acceptable.

(Or maybe its implicit because of some trade barrier I don't know about)

Posts: 7468 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This looks like really bad reporting, and it looks like misrepresentation in the OP. It would mandate E85 vehicles, but not fuel production. They can't do that, there'd be too many vehicles on the road for a couple decades, and longer, that wouldn't be able to take it. They'd try to increase it, and by forcing them to build the vehicles, try to create demand, but the pricing likely wouldn't work the way they'd life.

While it might not mandate corn ethanol, it certainly seems like that's the direction they're headed for, especially given the farm state sponsors of the bill. Corn ethanol is the devil. Not only do I not support more money for it, I'm all for cutting what support their is.

On the other hand, non-food source ethanol, like algae and perhaps cellulosic, shows incredible promise, both from an environmental point of view, and from the view of reducing global food prices. If they can get it to work on a mass scale in the next few years, I'd have no problem putting money into it to accelerate the process.

Posts: 21436 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
On the other hand, non-food source ethanol, like algae and perhaps cellulosic, shows incredible promise, both from an environmental point of view, and from the view of reducing global food prices. If they can get it to work on a mass scale in the next few years, I'd have no problem putting money into it to accelerate the process.
Until maybe it turns out that getting ethanol out of those at industrial scales also isn't efficient. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be. Or there are engines that can be even more effective than ethanol powered ones, but only on less mucky fuels (ethanol fuel has significantly lower MPG).

Go ahead and throw some research dollars at those avenues, sure, but anything more than that is nothing but political grandstanding likely to cost real dollars later (just like corn ethanol was), and if they turn out to be so effective with research, it won't be necessary to make such mandates.

Of course, even the whole targeted research thing is silliness that isn't necessary in the least with a proper carbon credit (or carbon tax) system.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AvidReader
Member
Member # 6007

 - posted      Profile for AvidReader   Email AvidReader         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would love it if we could get rid of the 10% ethanol we've got in the gas now. I was asking my mechanic if I was crazy or if I was getting fewer miles out of each tank because of it. He said he's had to discourage people from getting tune ups thinking there was something wrong with their cars when it's just the gas not buring as well.

Because apparently the environment needs me to use more fuel to drive the same miles. That'll fix everything. [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Flying Fish
Member
Member # 12032

 - posted      Profile for Flying Fish   Email Flying Fish         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The thread title is inaccurate. No one is advocating that all fuels be 85% ethanol; people are advocating mandating that auto engines be ABLE TO USE an 85% ethanol fuel.

My engines are ABLE TO USE 93 octane premium fuel; I don't have to buy it and my engines are also still quite capable of using 87 octane regular.

Read carefully and save yourself consternation.

Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stephan
Member
Member # 7549

 - posted      Profile for Stephan   Email Stephan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Its the stupid light bulbs all over again.
Posts: 3127 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The thread title is inaccurate. No one is advocating that all fuels be 85% ethanol; people are advocating mandating that auto engines be ABLE TO USE an 85% ethanol fuel.

A significant additional cost and constraint to engine design as a political sop to corn producers (and an obvious first step towards increases in the required use of E85, since right now E85 doesn't make any sense for consumers except by mandate); there's plenty of reason for consternation at the Senators in question.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
quote:
On the other hand, non-food source ethanol, like algae and perhaps cellulosic, shows incredible promise, both from an environmental point of view, and from the view of reducing global food prices. If they can get it to work on a mass scale in the next few years, I'd have no problem putting money into it to accelerate the process.
Until maybe it turns out that getting ethanol out of those at industrial scales also isn't efficient. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be. Or there are engines that can be even more effective than ethanol powered ones, but only on less mucky fuels (ethanol fuel has significantly lower MPG).

Go ahead and throw some research dollars at those avenues, sure, but anything more than that is nothing but political grandstanding likely to cost real dollars later (just like corn ethanol was), and if they turn out to be so effective with research, it won't be necessary to make such mandates.

Of course, even the whole targeted research thing is silliness that isn't necessary in the least with a proper carbon credit (or carbon tax) system.

I'm confused. Normally this is where you disagree with me, but we appear to have said the exact same thing.
Posts: 21436 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Its the stupid light bulbs all over again.

It's actually nothing like that at all.
Posts: 21436 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stephan
Member
Member # 7549

 - posted      Profile for Stephan   Email Stephan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Its the stupid light bulbs all over again.

It's actually nothing like that at all.
Close enough for me. Costs more, and potentially worse for the environment. What am I missing?
Posts: 3127 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Flying Fish
Member
Member # 12032

 - posted      Profile for Flying Fish   Email Flying Fish         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ethanol is a sacred cow. Oppose ethanol subsidies and lose the Iowa Caucus on Jan 3rd. Lose the Iowa caucus and spend the next few weeks explaining why you should be President even though the heartland voters have rejected you.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Costs more, and potentially worse for the environment.

I want to know how you define how it is 'potentially worse' for the environment in this case.
Posts: 14155 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Its the stupid light bulbs all over again.

It's actually nothing like that at all.
Close enough for me. Costs more, and potentially worse for the environment. What am I missing?
Yeah, to echo Samp, how are you defining worse for the environment?

And furthermore, the up front costs might be more, but you save more in the long run, unlike these engines, which cost more up front, and then you save nothing with the fuel. I see why you want to say it's the same, but it's really not.

Posts: 21436 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2