quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: I have a hard time believing he was just trolling with this. I just reread it assuming it was all a joke, but he seems to be trying too hard to be rational for it to be a caricature.
He trolls. He's big into trolling. He does this now. The odds of him being serious here are actually pretty low!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
If it's just one particular belief and not the whole person I thought was crazy, I'd take pains to make this clear. Assuming they know this just because you're still discussing it with them is expecting them to read your mind.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: "The act of which society tells us is shameful."
Which is an accusation, at least how I read it. Who came out and said shame on you for masturbating?
I did not understand Stephen's comment to be limited to what is written on Hatrack but what he feels is the attitude of society as a whole.
I agree, but then Porter indicated exception to CT's and Samp's comments, and a strawman got dogpiled. I was trying to defend the strawman.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Then why can't it be taught as a safe alternative in school?
Do schools need to tell kids how to do everything? What good are parents then? And don't kids figure this stuff out on their own anyway? By that logic, being religious goes against society because we don't teach that in school. Not anymore, anyway. In fact, we don't teach a lot of things in school, so are they inherintly evil or wrong?
This argument is silly. Who cares if you do your thing by yourself in your room, especially if you're single? It's not hurting anyone.
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
So, I was going to quote a website on the health benefits of masturbating, so I did a search...I go to check out the wikipage...and they have graphic pictures...I mean...graphic. I was surprised, no warning or anything, just close ups pictures of people masturbating!
So, do any of you people who find masturbation a sin disagree that it is medically beneficial?
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quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: I'm just thinking of his poor straw family.
Don't they suffer enough?!
Creeping mildew is just not to be spoken of.
(Although I hear it occurs even in the best of families. Do you know they don't even make you stay home from straw preschool anymore if you have it?)
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If I actually thought "anyone who believes this is crazy" I wouldn't bother trying to discuss it with them, I'd just call them crazy.
Your post saying simply "'you shouldn't masturbate' is actually a pretty high ranking indicator on the WHOOP WHOOP CRAZYTOWN ALERT " seems a lot closer to just calling them crazy than actually discussing it with them.
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quote:So, do any of you people who find masturbation a sin disagree that it is medically beneficial?
Yes, my understanding is that frequent male orgasm decreases the chances of prostrate cancer later in life.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Come on Samp, you know what you said was taken as an inditment of people's religious beliefs, and with reason. If you personally find the idea to be crazy, that is one thing, but it is offensive to say that people who think so are "a pretty high ranking indicator on the WHOOP WHOOP CRAZYTOWN ALERT".
Bite the bullet and say sorry and move on to being more crafty in your calling them crazy.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If I actually thought "anyone who believes this is crazy" I wouldn't bother trying to discuss it with them, I'd just call them crazy.
Your post saying simply "'you shouldn't masturbate' is actually a pretty high ranking indicator on the WHOOP WHOOP CRAZYTOWN ALERT " seems a lot closer to just calling them crazy than actually discussing it with them.
1. I corrected the assumption that I was, and you now know that I was not.
2. My offer to actually discuss it is there. It's on the table. Do you want to offer an argument as for why people should be taught not to masturbate?
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quote:My offer to actually discuss it is there. It's on the table. Do you want to offer an argument as for why people should be taught not to masturbate?
No, I have no interest in having that discussion.
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posted
Seriously, it is simple...it is a tenet of their religion (arguably) that masturbation is a sin. I'm sure some other people who believe this have other, more personally reasons why they believe that as well.
I say arguably because of the bible verse, which I vaguely remember, something like, "It is better to plant your seed in the belly of whore then to let it hit the ground." Which to me says more don't yank it outdoors and fling your juices about, but hey, that's me.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Seriously, it is simple...it is a tenet of their religion (arguably) that masturbation is a sin. I'm sure some other people who believe this have other, more personally reasons why they believe that as well.
I say arguably because of the bible verse, which I vaguely remember, something like, "It is better to plant your seed in the belly of whore then to let it hit the ground." Which to me says more don't yank it outdoors and fling your juices about, but hey, that's me.
No. You're putting forth an argument that Bible may or may not teach that masturbation is a sin.
It is not really arguable, however, what my religion teaches about it.
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quote:My offer to actually discuss it is there. It's on the table. Do you want to offer an argument as for why people should be taught not to masturbate?
No, I have no interest in having that discussion.
Okay! Like I said, anticipated. Then we can end framed talk about who I am intentionally or accidentally insulting.
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posted
m_p_h...I'm not a biblical scholar by any means...is there another, more definitive verse against slapity happity you could furnish us with?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Seriously, it is simple...it is a tenet of their religion (arguably) that masturbation is a sin. I'm sure some other people who believe this have other, more personally reasons why they believe that as well.
I say arguably because of the bible verse, which I vaguely remember, something like, "It is better to plant your seed in the belly of whore then to let it hit the ground." Which to me says more don't yank it outdoors and fling your juices about, but hey, that's me.
That isn't from the Bible, though it may be referring to the story of Onan. His sin was considerably more than masturbation (disobedience, deception, failure to care for people under his protection), but, yes, it is often used as a scriptural admonition against self gratification. In truth, prohibitions against masturbation are more complicated and not pinned to a particular scriptural reference.
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posted
I expressed earlier some reasons why I think masturbation is socially harmful. I also think it depersonalizes the sexual experience and contributes to selfishness, both sexually and otherwise, within relationships. I also believe there's debate about the positive physiological (rather than psychological) effects of masturbation for men.
I don't know that those negative effects (which I understand aren't universal, but which I think are more prevalent than are acknowledged) are sufficient reason why people should not "be taught masturbation." I do feel though that the effects I've listed are both real and harmful.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: m_p_h...I'm not a biblical scholar by any means...is there another, more definitive verse against slapity happity you could furnish us with?
No.
But "things that are clearly taught in the scriptures" is only a subset of what my religion teaches.
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quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: I don't know that those negative effects (which I understand aren't universal, but which I think are more prevalent than are acknowledged) are sufficient reason why people should not "be taught masturbation." I do feel though that the effects I've listed are both real and harmful.
And where does this understanding of the negative effects come from? Are they studies? Plenty show that masturbation has a positive effect in general on the sexual satisfaction of couples, in part because it gives them a tool to manage when your partner's sex drive is different than yours, both in the short and long term. (That, and it tends to improve staying power in men, the result of which is not really what I would call 'selfish.')
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posted
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly called the Mormons.
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Okay m_p_h, so neither the old nor new testaments specifically ban masturbation, correct? So, does the BoM? Where are these teachings? I'm not claiming they aren't there, I'm asking because I don't know, as I am not a Mormon or a Christian or anything which is easily classified or has a holy book.
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posted
I would be willing to bet that all the harm caused by masturbation since the beginning of time comes nowhere near the harm caused by convincing young boys and girls with normal urges that they are "gravely disordered".
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I would be willing to bet that all the harm caused by masturbation since the beginning of time comes nowhere near the harm caused by convincing young boys and girls with normal urges that they are "gravely disordered".
Ta-Da!
Strangely enough, replace 'masturbation' with 'being gay' and it works just the same.
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posted
I think it's also important to acknowledge that there is a fundemental difference of opinion in the harm that masturbation does. To my knowledge, most Christians who find something shameful in masturbation believe that it harms everybody that person interacts with. Period. There have been allusions to the fact that it doesn't hurt anybody, but this is where there's a disconnect with people arguing against masturbation.
CS Lewis once had this analogy about ships interacting with each other. He defined morality as having two parts - That which governs where ships can sail so as to not crash into each other (Being respectful, not stealing, not murdering, loving your neighbor, giving to the poor ships, etc.), and that which governs how a ship is run (Sexual abstinance until marriage, not masturbating, diatary laws, internal discipline). He goes on to say how much of society today places stock in the first set of morality, but not on the second. But here's the rub - He argues, and I think a lot of Christians who find masturbation to be morally wrong would agree, that the second form of morality directly influences a ship's ability to follow the first. That is to say, these people (And myself) believe there are some self-regulatory morals that, if not followed, will inhibit our ability to interact peacefully and lovingly with other people.
I don't believe masturbation is one of these, for the record. I rather like it, and don't feel any sort of conviction about doing it, nor do I feel there's a significant moral gain from refraining from it. However, that other people believe it moral to refrain from it seems hardly crazy to me. We just disagree on one particular, self-regulatory rule.
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They also believe that drinking tea and coffee is a sin, which isn't really in the traditional New Testament Bible, but they still don't do it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Every religion is different.
Masturbation is also a sin according to Muslims because of their holy book, too, so it's not just Mormons.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Masterbation has some residual societal pressure on "not" doing it, otherwise everyone from ages 9 to 20 wouldn't be denying doing it for fear of seeming maladjusted.
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quote:In 1837, a health food nut preached sermons about the dangers of masturbation and soon invented a cracker to help ward off those dangers. If you ate your cracker in the morning, the blandness of the cracker was supposed to lower your lust all day so that you would not have “vital fluid” expending urges.
That man’s name was Sylvester Graham and his cracker, the Graham cracker...
quote:Originally posted by Emreecheek: To my knowledge, most Christians who find something shameful in masturbation believe that it harms everybody that person interacts with. Period.
I am going to try to be very careful here, both because I do not want to titillate and because I don't want to imply anything, only ask (and the question is directed generally):
Masturbation (link is to dictionary) is the stimulation of one's own (or another's) sexual organs by hand, or by another means other than intercourse. There is nothing in using the term itself technically that necessitates it be done as a solitary endeavor, or that it be done in a way fully divorced from intercourse -- e.g., it certainly can be done together as foreplay before mutual intercourse.
That is, it can be done by couples to themselves in the presence of one another or to each other as a part of intended intercourse.
I am just having the most difficult time in understanding why this would necessarily be considered shameful [even in the religions I am aware are represented in this current conversation].
The question: are we using the term "masturbation" differently -- is there a private or more isolated meaning that I do not understand?
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posted
Despite the dictionary, I'm pretty sure the word "masturbation" is generally accepted as a solo act, and the phrase "mutual masturbation" describes the act with back up singers.
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quote:That means it's most likely going to be de-emphasized and eventually abandoned.
Didn't you start a big argument a few months back with your predictions about the future changes in Judaism?
I don't feel to debate it, but I'll just say that I disagree with you on what the future likely holds for my religion. Your scenario seems quite unlikely to me
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
m_p_h, if the banning of masturbation (and caffeine consumption?) isn't found in your holy scripts, where did it get it's basis?
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: m_p_h, if the banning of masturbation (and caffeine consumption?) isn't found in your holy scripts, where did it get it's basis?
Joseph Smith. At least I would assume so.
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:That means it's most likely going to be de-emphasized and eventually abandoned.
Didn't you start a big argument a few months back with your predictions about the future changes in Judaism?
Which ones? There's also Catholicism's expected changes on the issue of condoms and AIDS, that's a good one. (note that I was talking about that well before the Vatican started entering the confusion phase on that one)
quote:I don't feel to debate it
Well, of course not.
quote:Your scenario seems quite unlikely to me
Also unsurprising. To the extent that I'd actually be speechlessly astounded if this wasn't the case.
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posted
You would be mistaken. AFAIK, Joseph Smith never said anything about it.
But not terribly far off. Our leaders for many years, who we believe to be prophets of God like Abraham and Moses were, have been quite clear on the subject for many years.
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