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Author Topic: Riot survival, or what to do when things go bad
AchillesHeel
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With day after day of violent rioting in the U.K. my mind has wandered on to the subject of how to effectively react under such unpredictable situations. I'm posing this question as an aside from what to do in severe weather, complete governmental breakdown or in case of zombie outbreak.

There are always going to be the obvious things such as keeping a sufficient amount of good drinking water, flashlights (hand crank preferably) and of course something to defend your self and family if need be. What would specifically be prudent during a sustained riot?

Off the top of my head I would intend to rent a small storage area and put away what I cannot afford to replace or cannot replace due to sentimental reasons and get out of the city. I don't have all that much, and if looters truly want my uncomfortable cheap couch they can have it. Either get out of town and stay with family or just go camping, but staying near danger is well... dangerous.

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dabbler
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I'd want a large fire proof safe.
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ScottF
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As tempting as "just go camping" is, I think I'll defend my home.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
As tempting as "just go camping" is, I think I'll defend my home.

If it was just an apartment, I'd bolt it and leave if it seemed like a good time. In a pack, if possible.
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AchillesHeel
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I had a short conversation with a regular customer at work the other day on this matter, he was talking about his guns and how he would defend his home. I asked him if would like to kill someone, when he didn't quite understand the question I explained that when one has the option of taking themselves out of a situation where they may need to use violent force against someone and they do not remove themselves they are to blame for their actions. I just can't justify hurting someone (no matter how stupid and useless they may be) if I could avoid the entire situation by driving a mere hundred miles to stay at my brothers.
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dabbler
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Scott, given the amount of unbelievable violence that took place in the UK riots, I don't think it's safe to defend your home. One man was killed trying to put out a fire, and another three were driven over.

The level of disregard of others was staggering.

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Shanna
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I'd treat a riot like a natural disaster. Lock up the valuables in a safe and throw the family photos in the car and go.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
I'd treat a riot like a natural disaster. Lock up the valuables in a safe and throw the family photos in the car and go.

Amen.
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ScottF
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@dabbler: I hear you. I'm certainly in no position to understand the exact situation there. I do think we run a risk of setting precedents if the default reaction to swelling numbers of "disaffected youths" is to give them space and let them work it out on public and private property. Easy for me to armchair quarterback, I know.

@Shanna: Riots are people participating in willful herd mentality violence. I suppose you might compare it to a man-initiated forest fire. You can either attempt to put it out aggressively or let it burn it's course.

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AchillesHeel
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Is a precedent of rioting teenagers being shot dead by civilians better?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
@Shanna: Riots are people participating in willful herd mentality violence. I suppose you might compare it to a man-initiated forest fire. You can either attempt to put it out aggressively or let it burn it's course.

Third choice: Get out of the way, and let the people actually TRAINED to deal with it do so. Just like people who refuse to leave their fire-threatened homes actually make the firefighters' job harder, civilians with guns don't actually help the cops get things under control.
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Stone_Wolf_
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It is quite possible that getting into a car and trying to drive out of town would put you into way more trouble then if you had simply locked your door. It might be hard to judge the right timing to skeetadle and if you get it wrong, you might be far worse off.

As to AH's assertion that someone defending their home is to blame for any injuries or deaths, I disagree strongly, and I don't think that law is on his side either.

Regardless of how preventable it is, it is the aggressor's (rioter/looter) fault for breaking into someone's home to steal/destroy if they come to any harm and not the resident, legally defending their home.

I also feel that people don't understand how a gun is (should be) used. The presence of a gun does not automatically mean a shooting. A firearm is a tool for gaining the unwilling cooperation of others through the use of the threat of bodily harm. I.e. do what I say, or I'll plug you, or in this case, "Get the hell out of my house or I'll riddle your carcass with buckshot."

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Shanna
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But what happens if the looter also has a gun?

The closest thing to a riot that I've experienced was the aftermath of Katrina. My parents got out of there early but many neighbors stayed behind to protect their property. A week later when my dad got into town to check out the damage, our neighbors had turned our subdivision into something out of a post-apocalyptic movie. Physical barricade at the entrance, armed individuals patrolling the streets, etc. And these otherwise sane individuals didn't even live in New Orleans. But fear and paranoia made them crazy. Some neighborhoods escalated into shooting anyone walking the streets, including evacuees.

I agree that at a certain point, it may become safer to stay put. But ideally it would be best to get out early and during daylight hours. I just can't actively support scared individuals locking themselves away with firearms.

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dabbler
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I disagree. The rioting is primarily night time, so there are safe times and ways of exiting. Whether or not legally you are to blame for a burglar's injury or death is different from a moral or personal sense of fault. And lastly, I think that defending your possessions with a gun in the atmosphere of rioting is playing high stakes with your life.

I value life over possessions. I agree with rivka that the professionals should be handling this (though I hope they make wise decisions on how).

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Stone_Wolf_
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Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting staying and defending your home at any cost, simply pointing out that one should be careful of the timing as if you get it wrong, you might be worse off in trying to leave the area then staying.

I have renter's insurance, and large safe...if given enough time I would 100% leave the area with my family before things got out of hand. I too don't think positions are worth killing over, but "defending your home" is not really about your flat screen or xbox, it's about this is where my family is and no one will be allowed to enter without invitation or face the threat of bodily harm.

I was 12 and living in Van Nuys during the LA riots...soon after my father got me my first gun, and then we moved to Minnesota. There was sniper fire down the street from my elementary school and the teachers gathered all students in the assembly hall (without telling us why) and called the parents to come pick us up with picture ID required.

During the worst of it, someone jumped our back wall and was walking towards the house when my father drew down on them with a .357 and asked them to leave the way they came. He tells me he's never seen someone jump a 10 foot cinder block wall that quickly before.

As to a question of moral responsibility, anyone on my property would receive lots of warning and other options before they got hurt, and I wouldn't bat an eye or even feel bad if they choose to ignore those other options and continued to present a threat and ended up shot.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
But what happens if the looter also has a gun?
Then you either shoot them, order them to drop their gun or do what they say, depending on who has the drop on who and other circumstances.
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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Is a precedent of rioting teenagers being shot dead by civilians better?

If they are breaking into private property, then yes. I definitely like setting the precedent of anyone breaking into my home to know that they may die in the process. Not something I'd ever wish for in a million years though.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Is a precedent of rioting teenagers being shot dead by civilians better?

If they are breaking into private property, then yes. I definitely like setting the precedent of anyone breaking into my home to know that they may die in the process. Not something I'd ever wish for in a million years though.
+1
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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Third choice: Get out of the way, and let the people actually TRAINED to deal with it do so. Just like people who refuse to leave their fire-threatened homes actually make the firefighters' job harder, civilians with guns don't actually help the cops get things under control.

If I'd been ordered to evacuate by local law, I'd certainly comply, but I hadn't seen that as one of the assumptions in the original question.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Third choice: Get out of the way, and let the people actually TRAINED to deal with it do so. Just like people who refuse to leave their fire-threatened homes actually make the firefighters' job harder, civilians with guns don't actually help the cops get things under control.

I don't think civilians with guns -are trying- to help the cops "get things under control"...more like, protecting their families and homes.

I imagine that if you just showed up at a riot with a gun and then tried to join the cops with riot gear on firing tear gas into the riot...well, I bet it would not go well for you.

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rivka
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Best way to protect your family: get them out of harm's way. Staying to "protect" your home is idiotic.

(If getting out is not an option, that's a different situation. But that is not what was being discussed.)

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
(If getting out is not an option, that's a different situation. But that is not what was being discussed.)
It was by me. [Smile]

ETA: Although after you made that comment, so I get your point.

[ August 14, 2011, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Teshi
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For the record, neither the cops, nor civilians nor looters had guns except for one isolated rioter-to-rioter incident.

The deadliest weapon these young people carried were bricks, fire and cars. The deadliest carried by the opposition were aluminium baseball bats.

I do think that faced with more opposition most of these young people would have backed off. True, we saw some truly awful muggings, one resulting in death, but these were I think the exception rather than the rule. Violence was not their primary objective-- opportunistic theft from commercial premises. People's homes destroyed were destroyed because they were over commercial property.

Standing up to an individual you think is gunless with other defenders around would probably have been a reasonably effective deterrant during the London riots, given the youth and weak motivation of many of the people involved. However, defence would have ot be your only motive and your family would have to be far away. Trap a looter and things are far more likely to escalate.

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