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Author Topic: America & illegal immigrants
Tuukka
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Since there are a lot of people here, who are much more knowledgeable about American politics than I am, I would like to ask about something that has always bothered me a bit.

Over the years, I have read countless of articles about the illegal immigrant problem in America. I have listened to what politicians say about it. I know many want to build a border fence, etc, to find a solution to the problem. I don't think that any of the proposed solutions sound very effective.

So about the question:

I have never heard anyone comment anything on changing the focus from immigrants to companies that employ them.

Wouldn't that be a lot more effective way to control the problem? Simply give companies and private employers heavy punishments for hiring illegal immigrants, and they will be much less inclined to hire them. If people don't hire immigrants, the word will spread out. People in other countries will know that it's a struggle for an illegal immigrant to find work in the USA, and therefore there will be much less illegal immigrants coming in.

To my stupid Finnish brain that sounds like a pretty logical way to solve the problem. I guess there is some massive flaw in it, as it never seems to be considered in American politics.

What is the inherent flaw in that approach?

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Rakeesh
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I have to admit, it's strange to me that you've read lots of articles on illegal immigration, but none have mentioned focusing on the employer angle. It's not an uncommon idea, here.
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AchillesHeel
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About two years ago the car wash down the street got raided by immigration, they did pick a couple of illegals and fine the business but all it did was make us residents of Phoenix Arizona laugh. In this case, if there is a car wash in Arizona that has any kind of hand service rather than an automated tunnel majority of the workers are illegal and most likely work for tips alone. We have tons of restaurants and fast-food chains who primarily hire illegals over legal residents and citizens.

Mexicans aren't coming to America because they expect it to be a land of milk and honey, things really are just that bad in Mexico that living as criminals in America is a better life for these people. The same guys working in kitchens are standing outside hardware stores just hoping that a complete stranger might pick them up and pay them to do some random type of construction. They suffer no disillusions on the matter. As to illegal immigrants from other places, the problem is largely ignored and is fiercely tied to the international sex trade.

So close to the Mexican-American border the problem is just so pervasive that its hard to even broach a solution, and most solutions are juvenile in the face of reality.

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Tuukka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I have to admit, it's strange to me that you've read lots of articles on illegal immigration, but none have mentioned focusing on the employer angle. It's not an uncommon idea, here.

Might be just bad luck on my part, but yeah, I've practically never seen it mentioned. I haven't seen it much mentioned in internet discussions, either.

I actually brought this once in another board, and people there simply said that there is no way the government is going to go after big businesses like Walmart, etc. It's easier to concentrate on the illegals, who are largely defenseless, than to go after big convenience store chains, big restaurant chains, big gas station chains, big construction companies, etc. Big business might not react too kindly to politicians who would directly attack them.

I'm not sure if there is any truth to that, but it sounded somewhat logical at the time.

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Tuukka
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
About two years ago the car wash down the street got raided by immigration, they did pick a couple of illegals and fine the business but all it did was make us residents of Phoenix Arizona laugh. In this case, if there is a car wash in Arizona that has any kind of hand service rather than an automated tunnel majority of the workers are illegal and most likely work for tips alone. We have tons of restaurants and fast-food chains who primarily hire illegals over legal residents and citizens.

Mexicans aren't coming to America because they expect it to be a land of milk and honey, things really are just that bad in Mexico that living as criminals in America is a better life for these people. The same guys working in kitchens are standing outside hardware stores just hoping that a complete stranger might pick them up and pay them to do some random type of construction. They suffer no disillusions on the matter. As to illegal immigrants from other places, the problem is largely ignored and is fiercely tied to the international sex trade.

So close to the Mexican-American border the problem is just so pervasive that its hard to even broach a solution, and most solutions are juvenile in the face of reality.

How big are the fines? I would assume that the fine threats for the companies would need to be considerably big in order to make them reconsider hiring illegals.
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AchillesHeel
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The car wash was closed for a couple of days and is still open today. I have no clue about the details but if it re-opened under a new owner it happened extremely quickly, and I have no reason to believe that they practice anymore legal hiring practices.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuukka:
I actually brought this once in another board, and people there simply said that there is no way the government is going to go after big businesses like Walmart, etc. It's easier to concentrate on the illegals, who are largely defenseless, than to go after big convenience store chains, big restaurant chains, big gas station chains, big construction companies, etc. Big business might not react too kindly to politicians who would directly attack them.

I'm not sure if there is any truth to that, but it sounded somewhat logical at the time.

It's not the truth.

link

link

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TomDavidson
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To be fair to Tuukka, it is the truth that it is generally easier to go after the illegal immigrants themselves than their employers. Rabbit's own links note that Obama has been receiving a fair bit of flak from people for actually attempting to audit and prosecute employers for violating the law.
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rivka
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The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.
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scholarette
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Also, most businesses go for plausible deniability. If the employee is on the books, they showed all the appropriate paperwork. How was the company to know that those things were forged/bought illegally. This is also how most illegals end up paying more taxes than the rest of us. If they get a paycheck (versus cash) then their employer pays taxes out of it, but the employee does not file for rebates or get SS when old.
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Rawrain
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.

Very true indeed, and I must add very few of the illegals know English at all..So in the situation of paperwork they would have to have someone else do it..

Though I know there's also another problem, once we find out they are here we merely ship them back to Mexico so long as they've not committed any additional crimes, and from there they just hop the border again and again...

As far as big business goes, I highly doubt there are many illegals in those kind due to the rigorous amounts of paper work and the fact those big businesses don't want to look bad, and hiring illegals is a good way to look bad...

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
I must add very few of the illegals know English at all.

Untrue.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
I must add very few of the illegals know English at all.

Untrue.
What she said. While they are going to be some immigrants that never learn any English, or even just fundamental English words, the idea that most of them go that route is fundamentally contradicted by evidence.

For example it is estimated 90,000 illegal immigrants are on wait lists to attend English classes. 75% of Spanish speaking immigrants reports that within 15 years they speak English regularly.

Those two statistics are cited frequently, I'll see about pinning down the sources.

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AchillesHeel
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I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.

It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.

While all of this is true for many employers, there are also many for whom it is not true. Many of the people I've known hire housekeepers, nannies, gardeners and and even farm workers through an agency. They pay the agency who pays the workers. These agencies often employ dozens of workers and are very frequently aware that their employees are illegal. The agencies are sometimes even involved in assisting their workers in immigrating illegally. There have been several high profile cases where such agencies have been charged with "human trafficing" (i.e. slavery).

One of the reasons that illegal immigration continues to be such a problem is that there are not legal immigration alternatives for most unskilled work. Sadly,proposals to create legal alternatives are usually dead on arrival. There are unfortunately a lot of unscrupulous businesses who benefit from have workers with no legal rights. I am aware of several cases where builders have contracted with illegal workers on projects and then refused to honor the contracts when the work was finished -- presuming the workers would rather accept part pay than sue and risk being deported. Even more honest businesses benefit because the illegal workers willing to accept low wages drive wages down across the board.

The combination of businesses that profit from illegal labor and the xenophobia/biotry that pervades the bible belt make anti-immigrant rhetoric the perfect issue for appealing to the "conservative base".

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The Rabbit
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quote:
I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due.
I personally know a lot of Americans living in abroad who have never learned more than a dozen words of the local language. They get by, by associating primarily with other ex-pats and expecting the locals to learn English. Is it surprising that some aliens living in the US, particular those living in areas with large Spanish speaking populations never learn English. Its not surprising that you meet some. Its very hard to learn a language when you are older. None the less, statistics show that the vast majority of Spanish speaking immigrants do learn English.

quote:
This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education.
Right, because in first world countries like America almost everyone is multi-lingual. [Roll Eyes]
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due.
I personally know a lot of Americans living in abroad who have never learned more than a dozen words of the local language. They get by, by associating primarily with other ex-pats and expecting the locals to learn English.

Or in some cases (Hong Kong) the locals actually do speak English as it was mandatory learning in school.

Funny, how a foreign country, with a language as ancient as any spoken today, still recognizes the utility of teaching its populace English and somehow crams it into the curriculum somewhere. Not only that, they also get Mandarin classes int here too. They don't even cut PE and art to do it!

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AchillesHeel
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Rabbit: I'm talking about people who would have been lucky to be proficient in spanish more than twenty years ago when their education ended.

Blade: Perhaps OSC was spot-on in his predictions of the "common" language, aside from all the portuguese slang.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Rabbit: I'm talking about people who would have been lucky to be proficient in spanish more than twenty years ago when their education ended.
There is no question that there are big deficiencies in the Mexican education system and that many of the poor in Latin America have insufficient access to educational opportunities. The fact that most of them don't learn English in school is, however, not evidence of the inadequacy of their system.

Furthermore, a solid education isn't much of an advantage when it comes to learning a foreign language as an adult. That's why I brought up the example of American ex-pats -- most of whom are professionals with college degrees and still have difficulty learning to speak a new language.

The implication, however, that many people from Mexico aren't even proficient in their native tongue is appallingly bigoted. They may not be able to read a word in any language, but I'm confident that with the exception of those with severe disabilities they are all proficient in speaking their native language.

You seem very critical of Hispanic Immigrants who haven't learned to speak English fluently. You seem to imply this means they have no intention of integrating into the culture and becoming "real Americans". That judgement suggests you haven't considered that becoming fluent in a foreign language as an adult is simply a very difficult task. Before making that criticism, try living in another country and see how easy it is for you to become fluent in that language.

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Bella Bee
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quote:
The fact, that most of them don't learn English in school is, however, not evidence of the inadequacy of their system.
Since most non-British/Irish, non-Scandinavian Europeans (outside of the tourist industry) don't speak English, and those that do are often not very fluent - with the excellent education that they generally receive, I agree that it certainly isn't an issue native to Mexico. Most people growing up don't assume that they'll ever need another language. The necessity comes later, when language acquisition is more complicated.

And anyone who thinks that it's easy for Spanish speakers to learn English is having a laugh. In Spain, English is considered notoriously difficult by nearly everyone.

Should people make an effort to learn to understand and speak the language of the country they live in? I certainly think so. But when you're working three jobs (legal or not) and scraping together money to live on and send home, language classes are never going to come top of your list.

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AchillesHeel
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I was not referring to spanish as a spoken language but as a written language, vocabulary, and grammar. Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.

I'm not arguing on the matter that modern American education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult, simply that under-education has a profound on the ability to become fluent long after ending said poor education.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
I was not referring to spanish as a spoken language but as a written language, vocabulary, and grammar. Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.
That's an elitist assessment. The undereducated have different language skills than the highly educated. They are not necessarily poorer.

quote:
I'm not arguing on the matter that modern American education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult, simply that under-education has a profound on the ability to become fluent long after ending said poor education.
How does arguing that being undereducated is a disadvantage when it comes to learning a foreign language as an adult different than arguing that a good education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult? They seem synonymous to me and the evidence does not suggest its true.

I suspect it is much harder to learn to read in a second language if you've never learned to read in a first language, but I doubt this has much impact on verbal language skills. Since you referred to Mexican immigrants you have spoken with, I presumed you were talking about verbal skills.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Since most non-British/Irish, non-Scandinavian Europeans (outside of the tourist industry) don't speak English, and those that do are often not very fluent - with the excellent education that they generally receive, I agree that it certainly isn't an issue native to Mexico.
You seem to have forgotten Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland where most people are in fact conversant in English. I also object to the "outside the tourist industry" part. Fluency in English is pretty much a requirement for a career in the sciences anywhere in the world. The same is true for many other high level professions. OSC stark isn't much of a prediction. English is already the language of international commerce.

I will, however, agree that relatively few people who speak romance languages are fluent in English, even among the well educated. As a cycle tourist, I've had a lot of experience trying to communicate with the average man on the street in lots of European countries. In my experience, it is in fact hard to find fluent English speakers in France, Spain and Italy, but most people know enough English words that with patience and a lot of gesturing we are able to communicate basic stuff.

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Mucus
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Hmmm.

There are American or European expats that work around the globe and don't speak the local language. They still contribute to the economy and live their lives well.

That works. So whats wrong with foreign workers working in the States, making their fortunes, and returning home to live? Why do we care if they learn English or try to assimilate?

There seems to be an embedded assumption that foreign workers in the United States should speak English or that they necessarily want to become Americans (or "real" Americans as the case may be).

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.

It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.

I'll go you anecdote for anecdote. I worked in a restaurant for 7 years and worked side by side with Mexicans and other South Americans on a daily basis. Some of them were fresh off the boat and weren't as good, but would steadily improve as time passed. Some of them spoke English fluently without even much of an accent, some spoke broken but understandably with a heavy accent, and everything in between.

Anecdotally, I've found that immigrants with young children who are in school tend to adapt to the language faster, because their kids zoom way ahead of them. Even when Spanish is still the primary language spoken in the home.

And like Rabbit has said, what does the school system have to do with anything? Excepting outside influences, only an extreme minority of US students come out of K-12 with foreign language fluency.

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Bella Bee
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
You seem to have forgotten Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland where most people are in fact conversant in English.

To an extent, I was using shorthand. Perhaps I should have said 'Northern European'. Although, in my experience as a tourist, the level of English in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands varies widely, from total, perfect fluency to practically nothing, sometimes within the same town. I've never visited Switzerland, but I'll take your word for it.

I'll agree with you completely on the 'language of science' thing, though (besides, you should know!) A lot of scientists of my acquaintance have been amazingly multi-lingual.

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AchillesHeel
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Its my admittedly uneducated opinion on the matter of ex-pats not speaking the local language, if you know your only going to be around for a little while and the area is comfortable for english only speakers then I don't think I would learn a whole new language either. But for a properly educated person to take up residence and not learn the local language seems like a choice, I work in a convenience store in Phoenix and from ear alone I've picked up enough spanish to compensate for any customer who speaks no english.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
The International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.
Source.

Seems fair...we did invent the darn things.

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kmbboots
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All by ourselves, too.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.

It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.

I'll go you anecdote for anecdote. I worked in a restaurant for 7 years and worked side by side with Mexicans and other South Americans on a daily basis. Some of them were fresh off the boat and weren't as good, but would steadily improve as time passed. Some of them spoke English fluently without even much of an accent, some spoke broken but understandably with a heavy accent, and everything in between.

Anecdotally, I've found that immigrants with young children who are in school tend to adapt to the language faster, because their kids zoom way ahead of them. Even when Spanish is still the primary language spoken in the home.

And like Rabbit has said, what does the school system have to do with anything? Excepting outside influences, only an extreme minority of US students come out of K-12 with foreign language fluency.

I'll jump on the anecdotal band wagon. A little over half the section where I work is from Central/South America. Many of them immigrated here, and in only three cases do I even know if it was legally. One is from Brazil, one is from Peru, and one is from Venezuela. The first moved here on a student visa, and could barely speak English, she went to college, got married, and speaks fluent English just a few years later. I had many many conversations with her all in English. The second went to college in Peru, and learned English and French because it could afford her more opportunities, she moved here on a visa, married an American, and speaks perfect English with an accent. The last moved here with half her family who were seeking political asylum from Hugo Chavez. She learned some English in Venezuela, but simply practiced and now speaks perfectly fluently, and she is younger than me.

Funnily enough, all of them, including myself have been told by Americans over the phone, "I can't understand you, your English isn't very good, can I talk to an American?!" I've personally been asked if I am from India, which if you have spoken to me makes no sense. People need to realize that the struggle to be understood and to understand others happens in every single country. America doesn't get a pass on that. I suspect Americans who complain about being unable to understand immigrants and their English would be similarly baffled in understanding the English of somebody from South London.

I completely recognize that if you want to exist here in the United States, learning English empowers you, and actually makes you safer, because you can communicate with others effectively. I completely agree with teaching all our students English, but I also agree we need to be pushing another language on them, because that will open doors for them, and can further cement their place in the community they belong to down the road.

If I lived in Chinatown San Francisco, I would expect to learn some Mandarin or Cantonese in my business affairs. Anybody who has learned another language figures out pretty quick that there are concepts and words English just doesn't cover, and being able to say them also fascilitates communication. Make the investment, it pays off.

[ September 14, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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Orincoro
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HAH. When I lived in England, and was studying English, locals used to wryly comment that "we invented it didn't we?" Makes you realize how silly nationalist views of history can actually make you sound.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
America doesn't get a pass on that. I suspect Americans who complain about being unable to understand immigrant's and their English would be similarly baffled in understanding the English of somebody from South London.
I have colleagues from pretty much everywhere in the world (Venezuela, India, China, Korea, France, Nigeria, Tanzania, Scotland, Finland, Germany, . . . .). The two people I have the hardest time understanding are native English speakers. One is from South London and the other is from Barbados.
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AchillesHeel
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That does make some sense, when learning a new language (particularly in the case of formal lessons) you learn the formal type which is more likely to be understood.
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BBegley
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I haven't had to do this in over a decade, but from 1989 to 2000 I had to do paperwork on employees we hired, and every one of them had to complete an I-9 form, we had to examine their ID, and the company audited relentlessly, telling us that there were exorbitant fines for hiring undocumented workers. We even (stupidly) had to redo the forms for people when their drivers licenses expired.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
That does make some sense, when learning a new language (particularly in the case of formal lessons) you learn the formal type which is more likely to be understood.

In these particular cases, its a matter of the accent not the formality or informality of the words and sentences. The range of accents among native English speakers is very broad. For me, some accents are simply harder to understand than others, regardless of whether or not the person speaking is a native speaker, well educated and speaking formally or not.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.

The incredible irony simply takes my breath away.
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Orincoro
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Have you ever worked with or known a Scouse (Liverpudlian)? I had this one friend a few years ago who had a profoundly Scouse accent, and really, whole sentences were unintelligible. He had a real problem being understood, especially by foreigners.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.

The incredible irony simply takes my breath away.
[ROFL]

But is our children learning?

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Bob_Scopatz
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I'm a little late to the discussion, but I would like to submit that the US does not have an illegal immigration "problem." Portions of the US have been unequally burdened with illegal aliens without fair compensation for the downside effects on their local economy and services. Overall, however, immigration (legal or illegal) has been and will likely continue to be a net boon to the United States.

What we should have been doing for the past few decades is finding ways to ease the burden of certain aspects of illegal immigration on those areas most in need of relief. We should have provided a safety net for local and state service providers, helped to establish basic medical facilities to ease the burden on emergency rooms, and, where necessary, supplemented local spending on law enforcement, schools, and other areas that become overtaxed.

At the same time, we should adopt a data driven approach to the entire issue of immigration and figure out (as someone has already said) some sensible pathways to legal immigration along with ways to manage the (increased) legal immigration we decide to allow.

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Icarus
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+1
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Lyrhawn
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Bob and Icarus posting back to back in a thread?

Is there a rare eclipse happening or something?

Nice to see both your names attached to a post, even if only for a brief instance of delurking. [Smile]

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I would like to submit that the US does not have an illegal immigration "problem." Portions of the US have been unequally burdened with illegal aliens without fair compensation for the downside effects on their local economy and services. Overall, however, immigration (legal or illegal) has been and will likely continue to be a net boon to the United States.

What we should have been doing for the past few decades is finding ways to ease the burden of certain aspects of illegal immigration on those areas most in need of relief. We should have provided a safety net for local and state service providers, helped to establish basic medical facilities to ease the burden on emergency rooms, and, where necessary, supplemented local spending on law enforcement, schools, and other areas that become overtaxed.

At the same time, we should adopt a data driven approach to the entire issue of immigration and figure out (as someone has already said) some sensible pathways to legal immigration along with ways to manage the (increased) legal immigration we decide to allow.

I agree with you 100%.

I can't even fathom the ideological shift that would have to take place in order for this to actually be made law. The people at the Tea Party Debate the other night were cheering for letting the sick die and booing Perry whenever he spoke about anything that even resembled amnesty. They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens. They might be a minority, but they're a very large and powerful one, and some thread of that ideology pervades the Republican party.

Too many people would rather brush the problem under the rug and pretend it simply does not exist, all in the name of eventually exacting their version of justice, rather than submitting to reality in the name of actually enacting a just resolution.

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Orincoro
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I am also with you Bob.

One of the problems endemic to this issue is that US immigration policy is intentionally malleable. We systemically preference certain classes and origins of immigrants, as other countries do, and put a great deal of the authority to either grant legal status or withhold it, in the hands of a relatively small number of people. This has the benefit of allowing a great deal of constrictive control on immigration, but it will always be easier for a bureaucracy to tighten its grip on the inflow, than to relax it. A policy initiative that aims to widen the inflow of legal immigrants is usually laid out *against* the training and instincts of the adjudicators and consular officers who are processing immigrants.

If you're looking for ways to exclude people, you find them. If you're told: "let more people in," you're essentially being told: "don't look so hard for a reason to say no." I've had the polar opposite experience as an immigrant myself. Being from a preferenced origin country, problems with my documentation or status were often (despite how much I complain about diffident bureaucrats) met with "here is a problem we need to get past," whereas if I were a Ukrainian or Vietnamese, the reaction would have been: "*you* have a problem to solve." I've had officials throw unfavorable documentation away, or simply fail to properly file it. I've had consular officials tell me bluntly that they don't intend to share my legal status with the police, and I've had the police "question" me by providing me with the answers they would like to include in their reports. US immigration is not much different, really.

[ September 15, 2011, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
... They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens.

Clarification: Are the children legal US citizens (and the parents not) or are both the children and the parents legal US citizens?
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Orincoro
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I think given the context, we'd have to be talking about the legal children of illegal or legal immigrants; such children having been born in the US, and thus being citizens. Not surprising, considering some conservatives believe that children not born to US citizen parents should not be given automatic citizenship- never mind the potential of statelessness and disenfranchisement for children born and raised in the United States. That's the kind of thing you want- disown your children... the brown ones anyway.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
... They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens.

Clarification: Are the children legal US citizens (and the parents not) or are both the children and the parents legal US citizens?
Sorry, you're right that was poorly worded.

I meant the legal children (who were born here) of illegal immigrants. That point came up a couple times in the debate.

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Mucus
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Oh, no worries. I was just curious if this was an illegal "anchor baby" thing as seemed likely, or a mistaken "perpetual foreigner" thing.
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DDDaysh
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Being someone who lives in an area of high illegal immigration AND high legal immigration (South Texas, near San Antonio), I have to say that the legal status of immigrants isn't really all that indicative of whether or not they learn English. Social class seems to be a much bigger factor. Believe it or not we actually manage to have a fair number of legal immigrants here who are not very well educated or economically secure because they are able to immigrate via familial connections, marriages, etc. (Of course, most of those connections involve US born children of illegal aliens, but still.)

As for prosecuting employers rather than the immigrants themselves, that has been "all the rage" for over a decade now. It really sounds alot better on paper than it works in practice. Sure, it MIGHT deter big corporations from hiring illegal workers (though forged paperwork is common), but like rivka said, many, MANY workers don't work for corporations like that. Around here they tend to work as day laborers in the construction and farming industries, or they clean houses for cash. I know people are SUPPOSED to report all those things, but very few people actually report giving someone $50-$100 every week or every month for domestic cleaning, and tracking down day labor payments is even harder. The sheer bureaucratic nightmare of trying to enforce regulation in those types of situations means it will never happen.

And then there are the actual small businesses who do, willingly, employ undocumented workers. Those are Mom&Pop restaurants, mechanics shops, small grocers, etc. From what I've seen on the news, those are usually the kinds of places that get busted for "hiring illegals", and you have to wonder what good it does. Either they are so shady that they can just pop up again tomorrow under another name, or they're just regular people who made a bad decision and now they're livelihood has been destroyed, usually over less than half a dozen workers - so it hardly makes a huge impact.

Any of the bigger fish in this game, the ones trying to traffic in human flesh or pull off some sort of organized systematic exploitation of the situation, well they're usually too good to get caught.

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Rawrain
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Shoot and kill border patrol, this is America when we say don't trespass DON'T TRESPASS. Simple simple, and maybe before we deport them back to Mexico for strolling across the border we can educate them on how to do it legally ,_,
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Rawrain:
Shoot and kill border patrol, this is America when we say don't trespass DON'T TRESPASS.

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]
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