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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Dear Starbuck, please be my best friend (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Dear Starbuck, please be my best friend
AchillesHeel
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I hear you are the best frakking fighter pilot the Old Man has ever seen, and I can't recall you ever having trouble pronouncing anyone's name.
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Bella Bee
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I thought this was going to be about Captain Ahab's first mate. If he could pronounce the name Queequeg, he could pronounce anything.
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Orincoro
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That would all be well and good if she weren't a FRACKIN' CYLON!
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The Rabbit
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There were Cylon's in Mobi Dick? [Confused]
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Scott R
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Is Starbuck a cylon? I didn't really get that part of the story.
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Rakeesh
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I'm not sure the writers did, either.
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Jon Boy
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I didn't think she was a Cylon. I thought she was just a human that came back as a ghost or angel or something else weird and inexplicable to serve as a plot point.
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Lyrhawn
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You don't remember the part where Lee rammed the Basetars with the Pegasus and screamed "from hell's heart I stab at thee!" ?
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Mucus
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Based on things like the conversation before she "died" with the Leoben and purpose that she ended up serving, I think that she was supposed to be in the unwitting employ of the same power that controlled Head-Six and Head-Baltar.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I didn't think she was a Cylon. I thought she was just a human that came back as a ghost or angel or something else weird and inexplicable to serve as a plot point.

Oh, bsg
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Aros
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I'd assumed that she was a Jesus figure.
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AchillesHeel
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In the part that she died protecting the fleet? yeah.

Came back from the dead to be manic depressive and potentially doom the species? kind of a reach if you ask me.

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kwsni
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Jesus could have been manic depressive, you don't know his life.
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Nighthawk
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Starbuck was Keyser Soze all along.
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neo-dragon
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She was basically Gandalf; sent back by a higher power until her task was complete. Definitely not a cylon.
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Aros
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She died and came back to life, leading her people to salvation -- or the promised land. Because the rest of the show is Mormon allegory, I'd suspect that the Jesus analogy is more apt. Or a combination of Jesus and Moses.
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TomDavidson
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Of course, the "promised land" here was many thousands of years of savagery and barbarism. When you think about all the complaints the refugees had about New Caprica, their final decision makes very little sense at all.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
You don't remember the part where Lee rammed the Basetars with the Pegasus and screamed "from hell's heart I stab at thee!" ?

"Lee, Blow up the Damn Ship!"

"NO! NOOOO!!!!"

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Dan_Frank
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You guys make this show sound so well-written and not at all convoluted.
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Scott R
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It was only the last season that was ridiculous.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
You guys make this show sound so well-written and not at all convoluted.

Considering they were pretty much making crap up as they went along and pretty much didn't care where things wound up, it actually is fairly well written.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
It was only the last season that was ridiculous.

Uh? By what metric? The rest of the show?
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
You don't remember the part where Lee rammed the Basetars with the Pegasus and screamed "from hell's heart I stab at thee!" ?

"Lee, Blow up the Damn Ship!"

"NO! NOOOO!!!!"

Excellent. [Smile]
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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
You guys make this show sound so well-written and not at all convoluted.

Considering they were pretty much making crap up as they went along and pretty much didn't care where things wound up, it actually is fairly well written.
Fiction [fik-shuhn], noun: Pretty much making crap up as you go along.
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Aros
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I only had one big gripe -- that character motivation was all over the place.

Adama was a good guy, except when required by the plot not to be. Like wresting control of the civilian government.

The rule of the greater good: Lee will always be more "moral" than any other character. Unless Helo is in the episode. Then Helo will be the most moral and Lee will be a bastard lawyer.

The president was all over the place too, holier than thou one episode and reckless the next.

At least it kept you guessing. Because by the third season, you had NO IDEA what any character would do in a given situation. Except the Chief and Helo, maybe.

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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by Aros:

At least it kept you guessing. Because by the third season, you had NO IDEA what any character would do in a given situation.

This is not a good thing.
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Orincoro
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Yeah, I was pretty much disinvested in the characters once it became clear that they would do whatever the plot required of them.
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Dan_Frank
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I've never seen it. Been curious a long time. This thread has made me move it to the bottom of my list.
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Scott R
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
It was only the last season that was ridiculous.

Uh? By what metric? The rest of the show?
[Big Grin]

I enjoyed everything but the last season. I hated the depressed, conflicted angeloid Starbuck.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Yeah, I was pretty much disinvested in the characters once it became clear that they would do whatever the plot required of them.

^^^

the opening miniseries was great, and then it stretched on into, well,

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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
I've never seen it. Been curious a long time. This thread has made me move it to the bottom of my list.

The criticism of the show here isn't a good determinant as to whether you should watch it. From an objective viewpoint, it was outstanding. The problem is, there are flaws with almost any great work. Lost fans will complain about a lot -- but they're still Lost fans, they still love it regardless. We all have ugly babies, so to speak.

The new BSG had a somewhat weaker first and last season, with the middle seasons being very high quality. It was a completely serial storyline, containing only a handful of "filler" episodes. The show is among the best (from both a critical and fan perspective) science fiction (televised or otherwise) from the period, and is stronger than most of what is on television today.

Strengths: It is very watchable on DVD due to the serial nature. It has a lot of shocks and surprises. It is highly intelligent, for American television. It does a very good job at questioning who we were as a nation post-911, including themes of terrorism and torture. Cinematography and acting are outstanding. Writing is very strong. It is beloved mostly for superb space battles, larger than life characters, and unexpected plot twists.

Weaknesses: The biggest complaints are religious themes that were mostly sterile early on but shifted the plot significantly late in the series. My biggest complaint was that characters often acting against their nature to serve the plot. Other than that, there isn't much to complain about. Note that the first season is a bit slower and less exciting than later seasons.

Complaints aside, I'd put BSG in my top science fiction shows from the last decade, along with Lost, Doctor Who, Fringe, and Misfits.

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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
Yeah, I was pretty much disinvested in the characters once it became clear that they would do whatever the plot required of them.

^^^

the opening miniseries was great, and then it stretched on into, well,

I felt like the first two seasons were strong, and that it started going downhill in the third. I stopped watching when it became clear that that there wasn't much continuity to the characters from one episode to the next.
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TomDavidson
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*nod* Halfway through the third, it became obvious that they'd started trying to figure out where the show was going, to everyone's detriment -- as the characters and their motivations suddenly got shackled to a reasonably ridiculous overarching plot.
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Aros
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Are you sure it was the third? Remember, Season 4 was broke into two pieces, with almost a year between them. I don't really think it went into endgame until the first half of Season 4.

Season 3 was probably my favorite season, save the silly boxing match episode.

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Tarrsk
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Season 3 loses big points just for the quandrangle of doom. Fortunately, they dealt with that neatly by killing off Kara. Ha ha!

Oh wait.

(FWIW, I'm one of those who thinks that BSG was, overall, one of the best science fiction television series of all time, but one that took a significant drop in quality over the course of the third and fourth seasons. Oddly enough, I loved the finale, Angelbuck Thrace silliness aside.)

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
(FWIW, I'm one of those who thinks that BSG was, overall, one of the best science fiction television series of all time, but one that took a significant drop in quality over the course of the third and fourth seasons. Oddly enough, I loved the finale, Angelbuck Thrace silliness aside.)

Same here.
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Aros
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Minor Spoilers**********************

Weird. I thought a lot of the plot after the "final five" reveal were some of the best of the series. A lot of the characters and plots real solidified. Chief, Cally, Tory, and the baby in the airlock? Galen's mutiny?

I do think they never figured out what to do with Baltar, however.

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TomDavidson
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Heh. Baltar was one of the few characters that, by the end, I could stand.
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Tarrsk
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Yeah, Baltar topped the list for "characters whose completed arcs I found satisfying" (though Roslin and Adama are very, very close seconds). The only part of his story I didn't care for was the Cult of Baltar stuff during Season 4, and my distaste had more to do with the cardboard cutout cultists than Baltar himself.

quote:
Weird. I thought a lot of the plot after the "final five" reveal were some of the best of the series. A lot of the characters and plots real solidified. Chief, Cally, Tory, and the baby in the airlock? Galen's mutiny?

I do think they never figured out what to do with Baltar, however.

I liked the Final Five stuff. It was primarily the Kara Thrace, Tool of God (And Quite Often, General Tool) stuff that I didn't care for. Especially the final resolution to that arc.

It also didn't help that the overall quality of the writing took a significant dip in Season 4 (with some notable exceptions). The dialogue in episodes like "Revelations," in particular, is Leaden Exposition at its worst.

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Lyrhawn
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Baltar was probably my favorite character of the show if you include the writing and the acting. He nailed his role. His character went through more growth than any others, and I think was one of the few that actually had a REAL arc to it. He was a totally different character at the end from what he was at the beginning, and it felt totally natural.

The stuff with the cult was really interesting, because he was basically captured by his own cult of personality. He might have liked the sexy time, but other than that he kind of hated his own followers, and felt controlled by them (I often wonder if Ron Paul sympathizes with Baltar in that respect).

For the most part I really liked the show. I was even fine with Season 3, which had my favorite episode of the show, "Dirty Hands." Things got way too whacky in the fourth season. Their desperate attempts to try to close all the plot holes they'd left open just wasn't going to happen at that point, not by the means they had at their disposal. Still, it was a fantastic show, with great acting, great drama, and I consider it one of the best.

I also think it was pivotal in helping us redefine what science fiction could look like.

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Tarrsk
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Wait, "Dirty Hands" is your favorite episode?

Really?

(This isn't internet ironic shock, I'm genuinely surprised. It's one of those episodes that I could never muster more than the slightest "meh" towards, especially compared to episodes like "33" or the Pegasus arc. In my memory, it's, well, a stunningly mediocre episode. I'd love to hear why you like it so much.)

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Scott R
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quote:
From an objective viewpoint
Where do you find one of these?
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Samprimary
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I lease it out at competitive rates
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Orincoro
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Siri says there are 3 objective viewpoints "fairly close to you."
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Wait, "Dirty Hands" is your favorite episode?

Really?

(This isn't internet ironic shock, I'm genuinely surprised. It's one of those episodes that I could never muster more than the slightest "meh" towards, especially compared to episodes like "33" or the Pegasus arc. In my memory, it's, well, a stunningly mediocre episode. I'd love to hear why you like it so much.)

Labor history is a subfield I'm highly interested in. "Dirty Hands" was an excellent discussion of labor issues and economic stagnation. Plus I thought it was particularly well-acted and well-scored for the music.

It was a fairly self-contained episode, but it answered a pretty serious question/problem in the fleet. Were these people really okay with doing their various jobs for years on end with no hope of ever doing anything else? Some of those jobs really sucked, some were great. It was a very realistic episode.

It didn't have the high drama or OHHH! shocker moments of other episodes, but it was a great bit of exploration of social issues.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
You don't remember the part where Lee rammed the Basetars with the Pegasus and screamed "from hell's heart I stab at thee!" ?

"Lee, Blow up the Damn Ship!"

"NO! NOOOO!!!!"

Excellent. [Smile]
"I will not sacrifice the Pegasus. The writers have compromised our characters too many times already. Too many twists. They expand our backstory, and we act. They retcon entire relationships, and we continue to act. Not again. The plot must make sense from here on. This complex, No more! ... And *I* will make them pay meal penalties for what they've done!"
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Lyrhawn
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You forgot "the line must be drawn he-yuh!"
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Orincoro
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I had trouble working that in.

How about: the plot must be Resolved Heyuh!

Or, the story must progress Heyuh!

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Lyrhawn
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I'll accept that.

You know the interview special that Whoopie Goldberg hosted with Frakes, Stewart, Nemoy and Shatner covers that line amusingly. Actually the whole special is pretty cool, but Stewart seems pretty amused by his polysyllabic delivery of "here."

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SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*nod* Halfway through the third, it became obvious that they'd started trying to figure out where the show was going, to everyone's detriment -- as the characters and their motivations suddenly got shackled to a reasonably ridiculous overarching plot.

Exactly where I lost my interest (although I differ from most hardcore fans in feeling like the last half of season four got back some of the show's original mojo). I really liked the first four "New Caprica" episodes of Season 3, but I felt the quality steadily waned throughout the season, with the final two "Crossfire" episodes being almost unwatchable. I really, *really* disliked the final five stuff.
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