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As to decoder rings, I think books like The God of Small Things are a good example. It's a masterful book, it really is. But without the proper tour guide to help you understand the terms and themes being portrayed, it would be extremely hard to really understand what the heck is going on.
It's not like the English words are made up, but they are used to create concepts that only make sense if one understands some Indian history, sociology, and geography. It's filled with symbols that most readers won't understand, unless again you are given the codes.
posted
I don't know if these lists are allowed to include nonfiction as well as fiction, but I think there are a number of important nonfiction books as well. If I had to limit my list to between 5 and 10 works, it'd probably include the following:
1. The Autobiography of Malcolm X, As Told to Alex Hailey
2. Animal Farm by George Orwell (This novel used to be much more widely studied, but it seems in recent years it's become less recognized.)
3. The Green Mile by Stephen King (Part of this novel's popularity is certainly due to the film adaptation as well, but I feel, of King's massive bibliography, this is one of the most personal and heart-breaking works by the author. It becomes even more powerful when reading the originally serialized versions separately (as it was originally published in reference to the serialized works of Charles Dickens).
4. The Invisible Man by H.G. Wells ORThe Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson (These early, darker, and almost Gothic works are simple yet refined morality tales (a la Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe) wrapped in the clothes of horror and science-fiction. Both novels explore the complex experience of being a human being.)
5. Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein OR the collection of short stories Welcome to the Monkey House by Kurt Vonnegut ( Starship Troopers is the only book I've read twice from beginning to end back-to-back. Though maybe not Heinlein's most popular or influential novel, it's for many the most succinct summary of his style while still maintaining the thematic cues which informed much of his work. Many other people's lists have included other works by Vonnegut, but many of his novels become over-blown and long-winded as the page count increases. His short stories are much more fierce and hilarious.)
6. A Scanner Darkly by Philip K. Dick (Though a somewhat challenging read for many, this novel's text is a clear indication of science fiction's ability to be used as a tool to point out fallacies of our own culture. The honest yet entertaining portrayal of the effect's of drug culture remains relevant as substance abuse and dependence is a psychological malady to which there is no widespread cure.)
I may think of others later, but that's all I've got right now.
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I must say I am surprised at all the Heinlein fans that would choose Starship Trooper as their pick.
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I think for the idea of "popular" canon it seems best to pick a more accessible work. Much of Heinlein's catalog can become a more demanding read. Starship Troopers is just as smart as his other work and can be just as thought-provoking, but it's also more of an entertaining read for a hesitant reader (and is, for many, the Heinlein starting point).
Edit: I would be just as likely to pick Stranger In A Strange Land or The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, but Starship Troopers's satire of the military and martial law seems more relevant to me most of the time.
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quote:This is especially true if you're taking away books that need a "decoder ring". Without this, people don't appreciate good writing. Their reaction to the story then relies on their emotional investment - usually how much they can insert themselves into the main character a la Harry Potter or Ender's Game, the twists, and how titillating it is.
Without a decoder ring people don't appreciate good writing.
Am I understanding you correctly?
Mostly. It's more like, without a decoder ring (i.e. an understanding of writing outside of the experience of narrative), people generally just don't appreciate good writing. They lack the palate for it, much like the uneducated wine drinker really doesn't appreciate good wine.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I must say I am surprised at all the Heinlein fans that would choose Starship Trooper as their pick.
I would as well, although it would be close between that and Citizen of the Galaxy, which nobody ever seems to talk about. It's not the best book in the world, but it's a prime example of a civic-minded allegory with a huge author tract.
Also, the Sun Also Rises was a book that for me, at the age of 20 or so, epitomized the sense of confusion I had about social relationships, jealousy, friendship, and love. It suggested to me that I was not the only person who felt this way, which was a welcome insight.
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From a (writing) craft perspective, I found Starship Troopers to be his poorest novel. I can understand, however, that the themes and ideas are intriguing, and the film tie-in only adds to that. I remember reading that he wrote it in only ten days or so, and that he was very surprised when it won the Hugo.
If Stranger in a Strange Land is too boorish for people, I'd be hard pressed to decide between The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Have Spacesuit, Will Travel.
Has anyone else read For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs? It's his first novel, but it was published posthumously. It condenses many of his philosophies and ideas, expressing them in much more detail than any of his other works.
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I have. I agree with you about Troopers. I thought it was weak compared to a lot of what he wrote. I don't know that For Us could be said to be true to his philosophies as he got older. I think that the Soviet Union really sort of freaked him out about anything quite so left as his economic theories in that book.
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I think, ultimately, the question isn't whether or not to include Heinlein. It's simply a matter of which, of the many, Heinlein works to include. Agreed?
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I love Starship Troopers...and I put it on the list...if I must pick only one...but The Moon is Harsh Mistress is also up there, and Glory Road, as is The Cat Who Walks Through Walls (despite a horribly written ending, if you can call it that). Again, if I had to pick just one, it's Troopers.
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quote:It's more like, without a decoder ring (i.e. an understanding of writing outside of the experience of narrative), people generally just don't appreciate good writing. They lack the palate for it, much like the uneducated wine drinker really doesn't appreciate good wine.
Can you explain what you mean by "writing outside of the experience of narrative"?
I think I disagree with you; do you distinguish between skillful story-telling and skillful writing?
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I think you're grouping that sentence wrong, Scott. It's not "understanding (writing outside of the experience of narrative)" it's "(understanding writing)(outside of the experience of narrative)."
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: See, that's the thing. We love Heinlein but we are a biased sample.
I feel like it could be relatively easily debated that part of the reason would be a biased sample is just that one could assume many of the Hatrack users are better read than the average person. So, it certainly isn't a random sample. But when it comes to picking something like important literature which should be studied or passed down, wouldn't you rather receive the opinions of a better read demographic?
Edit: Admittedly, many of the lists have been very heavily slanted towards science fiction, including my own, so this sample may be a bit too specialized.
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Ok - so trying to do this without cheating and looking at anyone else's list first.
The biggest one to jump out at me was "To Kill A Mockingbird".
But others:
The Whole Narnia Series Night Good Omens The Giver Jane Eyre Pride and Prejudice Jurassic Park The Oedipus Plays A Secret Garden Bridge to Terabithia Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
I'm really don't know what else. There are too many books that are passed along with great love. I really wanted to add both "The Hunger Games" and "Harry Potter" but they're both too new to know for sure. I really thing the Hunger Games will end up standing the test of time better than Harry Potter because I think it IS more likely to be brought into a school curriculum at some point.
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Songs as poetry - we've always kept them separate, but it's certainly the most common form of rhymed language today. Visit from St. Nicholas is definitely in the canon of poetry. Don't know about Silverstein; does anyone pass along poems of his AS poems?
When I was in elementary school, everyone I knew who actually read books outside of class had read Where the Sidewalk Ends. It's a children's poetry book, so I haven't read it in like 20 years, but I loved it as a kid.
We passed that one around when I was in junior high, I think.
I've read 3 of his books of poetry from start to finish and loved them all. We had "Where the Sidewalk Ends" and "A Light in the Attic" when I was a kid, and he came out with "Falling Up" when I was in college. However, to this day, the first thing I think of anytime anyone mentions his name is "Uncle Shelby's ABZ Book". It's NOT a children's book, but I didn't know that and it was one of the first books I ever read. lol...
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quote:This is especially true if you're taking away books that need a "decoder ring". Without this, people don't appreciate good writing. Their reaction to the story then relies on their emotional investment - usually how much they can insert themselves into the main character
There is an opposite effect, though, in that certain books can't have the impact that they have when you "figure it out" without the decoder ring. Like a really funny joke, sometimes you have to just let someone figure it out themselves no matter how much they beg you to explain the punch line. Sure, they can understand that it's funny, but they won't actually laugh.
One book that I suspect OSC would claim has not been kept alive through the popular Canon, is Moby Dick. It certainly is studied in academia, but having read it entirely on my own, and "figured it out" myself, I have to argue that it really can't be kept alive by academia, because studying it in class is like explaining the joke.
So, of the people out there who read it and really "got it," I have to argue that it was their own journey that got them there, not the support of academia. Also, the book was widely panned, fallen into disrepute, only to be rediscovered many years later. It was a popular groundswell that brought it to the attention of academia, so I would definitely say that it achieved it's reputation as part of the popular canon.
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quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: The Whole Narnia Series Good Omens Jurassic Park
Good picks. I think it'd be safe to say that either The Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia would be necessary.
Speaking of lords of things, I also realize that Lord of the Flies by William Golding is a book which I would include as well.
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dkw got my meaning. I think appreciating "good" writing generally requires an understanding of writing that is...more abstract, maybe, than that of experiencing the narrative.
I'd agree that there is a significant difference between writing and storytelling, good and bad. However, it seems to me again that again, lacking a refined palate for story telling usually results in people valuing storytelling based on the three aspects I noted before.
Serving up a delicately crafted meal doesn't really work when your audience just wants McDonalds.
---
And that's sort of my point here. There's, I think, a distinction to be made among the reasons why the elitists who read books seriously enjoy the books. There are those that are primarily enjoyed for their story telling. There are those that are read more for the effect that reading and working through them has on the reader. There are a host of other reasons for enjoyment/benefit.
But, if we're talking about the elite, limited population that actually passes on non-children's books that may endure, the appreciation of these books is largely coming from education. Referring to it as a "popular" canon is a misnomer.
To quote the eminent sage, Strongbad: "Popular Science. No such thing. They should call it Nerdular Nerdence."
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I feel like some people could contend that much of Lord of the Flies's popularity is derived from it's use in schools, but I would disagree. In fact, I feel that, in many ways, using that novel in school is a disservice to text. It's much more sophisticated than the confines of a freshman high school English class.
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How could you include Good Omens and not mention American Gods?!?!?!
For high school books, I'd include Flowers for Algernon and the Giver (I know that the Giver isn't read in a lot of places).
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I actually didn't like American Gods all that much. I'm pretty sure Pratchett was my favorite half of Good Omens. Mostly though, I included Good Omens and not American Gods because I've had dozens of people tell me I needed to read Good Omens, and only a handful ever recommended American Gods.
I really like Gaiman's kid stuff though. That reminds me, I need to get out the Graveyard Book to read with the kid this weekend.
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I read Jack London's Call of the Wild independently of school, and would recommend London's books to the list. His story "To Build a Fire" is still one of my favorite short stories.
My mom read us The Secret Garden when we were little, and that book belongs on the list as well.
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: Edit: Admittedly, many of the lists have been very heavily slanted towards science fiction, including my own, so this sample may be a bit too specialized.
That is kind of my point. The question is being asked on a forum hosted and dedicated to a science fiction author. Of course we are going to think that Ender's Game or Heinlein should be considered "popular canon". And we might be right. But imagine the question asked on, say, a web site dedicated to Stephen King or John Grisham or Ian Fleming.
To our credit, we did come up with some non speculative fiction suggestions, but most of those were children's books. Or stuff that, even if we didn't read it in school, lots of people did.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: The question is being asked on a forum hosted and dedicated to a science fiction author. Of course we are going to think that Ender's Game or Heinlein should be considered "popular canon". And we might be right. But imagine the question asked on, say, a web site dedicated to Stephen King or John Grisham or Ian Fleming.
To our credit, we did come up with some non speculative fiction suggestions, but most of those were children's books. Or stuff that, even if we didn't read it in school, lots of people did.
I feel like you could almost make the claim that science-fiction fans are more likely to pass books around in mass on the basis of word of mouth. My family are all big readers (with me being the only one with a bigger love for science fiction), and I rarely hear them talking about notable new works or influential older ones outside of the stuff already regularly studied. And trust me when I say it certainly isn't due to a lack of variety or exposure to different works.
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As this is simply for an essay on literature, I'm not sure it'd really be necessary to approach it statistically. If we were to approach it from that angle, then we'd have to take into account best-seller's lists, and that would certainly disqualify a number of the suggestions as well as, most likely, a number of the already studied novels.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: As to decoder rings, I think books like The God of Small Things are a good example. It's a masterful book, it really is. But without the proper tour guide to help you understand the terms and themes being portrayed, it would be extremely hard to really understand what the heck is going on.
It's not like the English words are made up, but they are used to create concepts that only make sense if one understands some Indian history, sociology, and geography. It's filled with symbols that most readers won't understand, unless again you are given the codes.
That's one of the reasons I love that book actually - not only is it wonderfully written, but it does expose the (western) reader to whole different world.
I also love (some) Salmon Rushdie for the same reason - Midnight's Children and The Ground Beneath Her Feet in particular.
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Roots- Alex Haley The Outsiders- S.E Hinton Shogun- James Clavel Csardas- Diane Pearson The Yearling- M. K Rawlings Addie Pray(paper Moon)- Joe David Brown The Adventurers- Harold Robbins Mrs. Frisby and the Rats Of NIHM- Robert O'brien Where The Red Fern grows- Wison Rawls The Merlin Trilogy- Mary Stewart Watership Down- Richard Addams The Belgariad and Mallorean- David & Leigh Eddings Maps in the Mirror- Orson Scott Card The Far Out Worlds of A. E Van Vogt The Past Through Tomorrow- Heinlen Prydain chronicles- LLoyd Alexander Isles Of The Dead- Roger Zelasny The Chimps of Mt Asserick(also known as The ForrestDwellers in Great Britian)- Stella Brewer
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List of what? List of books you like? Because I have not even heard of 7 of those books. The Prydain Chronicles are candidates for a popular canon?
For a forum full of people that love to praise their own intelligence, there has been a disappointing lack of analysis in this thread.
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quote:Originally posted by Foust: List of what? List of books you like? Because I have not even heard of 7 of those books. The Prydain Chronicles are candidates for a popular canon?
For a forum full of people that love to praise their own intelligence, there has been a disappointing lack of analysis in this thread.
What's disappointing is the lack of humility, courtesy, and manners in your post. If I may so myself without distracting from the topic of the thread.
Edit: Felt it important to add that I meant no disrespect of my own in this response. Simply that there has been plenty of discussion of the academic validity of some of people's suggestions without resorting to name-calling.
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I'd like to add Of Mice and Men to the list.
And I'd personally like to see Jules Verne get more respect from the world at large. I have very fond childhood memories which involve a pillow fort, a flashlight, and a copy of Journey to the Center of the Earth.
natural_mystic, glad to find someone else who enjoyed Anansi Boys. There are parts of American Gods that I found to be better, but I enjoyed Anansi Boys more overall. I loved the IDEA of Good Omens but it felt too much like two authors writing. It was very distracting.
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If we're going to include Jules Verne, then I feel like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle should be included too. The stories of Sherlock Holmes have held such a legacy that something as iconic as "The Hound of the Baskervilles" or other stories should be recognized.
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In thinking about this, I've decided that modern audiences are too fragmented outside of school for concepts like "canon" to really work -- and the distinction between "popular" and "good" is itself rather important. What would we call the canon music of the last ten years, for example? There's simply too much content for everyone to have experienced the same bits, once they escape school and are thus no longer held to a common curriculum.
That said, it might be possible to look back after several decades and see what has endured; that is, after all, how our concept of iconic '80s music has evolved from what was actually on the radio to the New Wave you generally hear on '80s retrospectives. If I go TOO far back -- and I was tempted to go to the '20s, because so many of the books I love are from the '20s and '40s; I mean, Wodehouse -- I wind up running into works that are now part of the academic canon, and that's what we're trying to avoid. So I'm starting in the '70s, and avoiding books that are explicitly for children and/or young adults. I was torn about including comics, because those have really become an important medium -- but I'm going to exclude comic strips, even though it pains me to leave out Calvin and Hobbes.
The '70s and '80s, then, give me this list (which isn't necessarily reflective of my favorite books from the period, but ones that I think fit the definition):
Watership Down The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Dune The Selfish Gene All Creatures Great and Small Rendezvous with Rama The Shining IT The Stand Song of Solomon Jonathan Livingston Seagull Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas Shogun A Scanner Darkly Wizard of Earthsea Watchmen The Princess Bride Ender's Game Speaker for the Dead The Name of the Rose The Pillars of the Earth Interview with a Vampire The Dark Knight Mort One Corpse Too Many Sandman: Season of Mists The Hunt for Red October Red Storm Rising
I'm a bit nervous moving into the '90s, not least because we have to mention some young adult books here. It's also recent enough that I worry my memories are skewing my mental list. I also find myself having to include some authors that I hate, but which had a legitimate impact and are well-regarded. I cannot -- cannot -- bring myself to mention anything by Tim LaHaye or Dan Brown, though.
Harry Potter The Dark Tower Fight Club Good Omens Guns, Germs, and Steel Sophie's World Jurassic Park Snow Crash Cryptonomicon Generation X Life After God Microserfs A Game of Thrones Doomsday Book The Wheel of Time The #1 Ladies' Detective Agency Bridget Jones' Diary Like Water for Chocolate Infinite Jest Wicked The Hours Angela's Ashes The Road High FidelityPosts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I guess I'd be more interested to hear about these books that could not "make it in the real world." What are examples of this literary welfare?
I think seven of my list fit your criteria since you havn't even heard of them.
Believe me I shall be passing these down to my children step children nieces nephews and anyone else that has a love of reading becasue these works are worth preserving.
yes i went slightly out of the thread starters criteria.....
quote: pretty much EVERYONE should know at least their title
....however I included them because I love reading these works, (some from childhood) all are in my own collection, and they are My Popular Canon that I wanted to share with this forum.
I don't believe you have shared a single title on this thread. You are one of the reason I quit posting here as much as I posted in the past. Too much criticism and not enough acceptance. You may now point out all the errors in this post if that is what gets you off when you enter this Forum. That is all I have to say and will have to say in reply to your post or anything else you post on this topic.
P.S. i left the errers in hear just four you!
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I acutally have bought multiple copies of OSC's Enchantment specifically to give away to friends. I love that book.
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I believe TomDavidson suggested Guns, Germs, and Steel, and I suggested The Autobiography of Malcolm X, As Told to Alex Haley. So, I think we kinda just assumed nonfiction options would be acceptable.
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Oh, man, somehow I put Snow Crash on there and left out Neuromancer, which was considerably more influential even if it's a worse book.
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King of the Wind Little House on the Prairie (the series, though a recent perusal indicates to me that On the Banks of Plum Creek would be the single volume I'd probably recommend. I think it illustrates the character of the series which is Pa's quitessentially American optimism in the face of dire poverty.
I never would have read The Great Gatsby if it weren't so thin. So I used to be baffled at Card's holding it up as a specimen of "take your medicine" literature. I think in the end it just speaks to something different in our backgrounds that I love it and he doesn't. Maybe it has to do with the immigrant's love affair with the American dream.
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quote:as long as people are reading them for love and pretty much EVERYONE should know at least their title, or be thought ignorant by volunteer readers
Tons of the above books do not qualify as a book that people are reading for love alone.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned my gripping tale: LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Power Programming: Robotics in C. I mean, surely we all love to read a book about programming languages and LEGO robotics?!?!?
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