Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Kim Jong Il Is Dead (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Kim Jong Il Is Dead
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not to take away from other death threads, but this is one of the most despicable people to graze this planet. I for one feel only sad that he dies totally unprepared for what comes next.

Link.

[ December 18, 2011, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

Posts: 13748 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
advice for robots
Member
Member # 2544

 - posted      Profile for advice for robots           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, well then, long live Kim Jong III!

I wish this spelled the end of so much oppression and death in North Korea. Instead, now the people have to shoulder a power struggle as well and the whole region has to wonder if North Korea is going to suddenly go bonkers on them.

Posts: 5792 | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Kim Jong III!
That is a horrible, but astonishingly unexpected, joke.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I gotta say that I sighed at that as well.

The whole region has always had to wonder if N. Korea was gonna go nanners, its one of those things you have to consider when you live in Asia in general. The additional stress is the "rightful heir" to this nuclear capable country is a twenty something who for all we know could be more insane and and domination interested than his father. I couldn't help but see the irony that the AZ Republic headlines were "Kim Jung Il is dead" and "soldiers return home from war" some part of me believes it knows exactly where those troops are headed next.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The whole region has always had to wonder if N. Korea was gonna go nanners, its one of those things you have to consider when you live in Asia in general.
I think the threat of this leading to mayhem or civil war is overblown. His death was not unexpected and the natural death of leaders simply hasn't been a major cause for wars in the past two centuries or more. Wars of succession have nearly always been fought between countries not within them and I really don't think South Korea (or anyone else) is going to see Kim Jong Il's death as a reason to invade. Its not like there can be a military coup, the military is already running the country. The only way there will be serious instability is if there is a split in the military.
Posts: 12587 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There could be instability but only as a result of N. Korea finally imploding.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Graze?
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Or China could stop beating around the bush and absorb it.
Posts: 2273 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Or China could stop beating around the bush and absorb it.

That would never happen.
Posts: 13748 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Or China could stop beating around the bush and absorb it.

Seriously man this is takes a fairly astounding degree of ignorance to say seriously.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
manji
Member
Member # 11600

 - posted      Profile for manji           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On that note, why doesn't the US stop beating around the bush and absorb Mexico already?
Posts: 313 | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Been there, done that. 100 years ago.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ginol_Enam
Member
Member # 7070

 - posted      Profile for Ginol_Enam           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Or China could stop beating around the bush and absorb it.

Seriously man this is takes a fairly astounding degree of ignorance to say seriously.
So why don't you enlighten him rather than declaring his ignorance and calling it a day?
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What he's referring to is that China's first priority when it comes to North Korea is to prevent a catastrophic flow of North Korean refugees into China. Thus, as manji is alluding to, China absorbing North Korea in order to solve this problem would be like the US absorbing Mexico in order to stop illegal* Mexican immigrants, a non-starter.

* The parallel breaks down a little here, China already has its version of Mexican illegals, the millions of migrant workers moving from the countryside into the cities, usually despite weakly enforced hukou laws on where they can live. AFAIK, North Korean refugees are in more of a legal limbo since China only started drafting a proper immigration law midway through last year

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
NOBODY BUST ON CHINA!

---------

Anyway, yeah, if it was meant seriously (which I'm skeptical of), it was pretty ridiculous. Goodness, North Korea has got to have one of the most costly populations on the planet, in terms of what it would take in order for the nation to start generating positive returns on all sorts of levels, if that makes sense. The costs would far, far outweigh the benefits for generations at least, and what returns would they even see?

Posts: 16180 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Swampjedi
Member
Member # 7374

 - posted      Profile for Swampjedi   Email Swampjedi         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dead? I had no idea he was even il.
Posts: 1067 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jeff C.
Member
Member # 12496

 - posted      Profile for Jeff C.           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Isn't his son even crazier than he is?
Posts: 1320 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Swampjedi:
Dead? I had no idea he was even il.

:facepalm:
Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That is my question as well, only time can really tell seeing as anything that actually comes out of N. Korea about the mental well being and fortitude of their leader carries the same authority as Vladimir Putin sexy calender.
Posts: 2273 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
Isn't his son even crazier than he is?

I don't think a whole lot is known about him aside from some basic biography and some anecdotes about some of his schooling in Europe.

There's not much suggesting that he's crazy.

Well, for that matter there's not a whole lot suggesting that the father is crazy unless you're just broadly using "crazy" as a synonym for something like brutal or uncompassionate.

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, that's putting a fine point on it. Many analysts believed that he was a psychopath, or dwelled somewhere in that area of the spectrum of anti-social personality disorders. Not crazy, granted. But not exactly balanced either.
Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't think a whole lot is known about him aside from some basic biography and some anecdotes about some of his schooling in Europe.

There's not much suggesting that he's crazy.

He has his government tell everyone he shot an unbelievable golf score with multiple holes in one the very first time he played. If his cooks displease him, he punishes them horribly. Spreading laughably ridiculous lies in order to create a cult of personality and being childishly brutal for minor displeasures are both pretty clear signs of something severely mentally wrong.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
NOBODY BUST ON CHINA!

---------

Anyway, yeah, if it was meant seriously (which I'm skeptical of), it was pretty ridiculous. Goodness, North Korea has got to have one of the most costly populations on the planet, in terms of what it would take in order for the nation to start generating positive returns on all sorts of levels, if that makes sense. The costs would far, far outweigh the benefits for generations at least, and what returns would they even see?

North Korea has infrastructure and I imagine a population willing to work extremely hard for a generation or so once a better life opportunity is present to anyone willing to grab it with both hands and feet. The big problem is what to do with its demobilized military and the question of integrating the former bureaucracy, intelligentsia, elites and other agencies into a unified government and the issues of rehabilitation.

The problem is still a contentious problem in Germany, it would likely be more difficult in Korea due to the greater degree of isolation and indoctrination.

It's not about 'busting' on china, its spreading a misinformed opinion out there like its fact.

Now China actually does somewhat have an interest in seeing N. Korea implode peacefully, a unified Korea would be a Korea without US forces deployed to it.

quote:

He has his government tell everyone he shot an unbelievable golf score with multiple holes in one the very first time he played. If his cooks displease him, he punishes them horribly. Spreading laughably ridiculous lies in order to create a cult of personality and being childishly brutal for minor displeasures are both pretty clear signs of something severely mentally wrong.

Odd, is any of this on wikipedia?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It'll take a lot more than a generation; east Germany had a much smaller gap in comparison, and a probably far more peaceable reunion, and it took them a lot longer.

quote:
Odd, is any of this on wikipedia?
http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/golf/news/article/-/12408428/kim-jong-il-remembered-in-sporting-terms/1/desc/

I'm having a harder time finding my source for the cooks bit; that's based on a secondhand account of a foreigner brought in to cook for Kim Jong-il.

One might also include having your military foreign filmmakers to make films for you in the list of obviously mentally problematic activities. Or lying to the country that the South Korean populace would love to come North (and that life is hugely better in the North), except they are cruelly prevented by corrupt leaders and the Americans.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:

He has his government tell everyone he shot an unbelievable golf score with multiple holes in one the very first time he played. If his cooks displease him, he punishes them horribly. Spreading laughably ridiculous lies in order to create a cult of personality and being childishly brutal for minor displeasures are both pretty clear signs of something severely mentally wrong.

Odd, is any of this on wikipedia?
Anyways, I'm not sure that those two anecdotes really do demonstrate that he is crazy. In the first, that kind of thing may be laughable to us, but how laughable is it to a population that has been oppressed, in many cases, all of their lives, and may never even have seen or played on a gold course? Did he actually make it up himself or did he simply instruct his propaganda departments to propagandise and they competed to see who could be the most complimentary?
In the second, I'm not so sure that many people in the same position would act differently. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc. etc.

As Orincoro touched on, these kinds of things may show that he is (was) psychopathic. But it doesn't seem to show that he was crazy. A crazy or delusional person in charge of a nuclear weapon is worrisome in ways that a "mere" psychopath wouldn't be.

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyways, I'm not sure that those two anecdotes really do demonstrate that he is crazy. In the first, that kind of thing may be laughable to us, but how laughable is it to a population that has been oppressed, in many cases, all of their lives, and may never even have seen or played on a gold course? Did he actually make it up himself or did he simply instruct his propaganda departments to propagandise and they competed to see who could be the most complimentary?
I didn't mean laughable to the population, I meant laughable on an absolute scale. And I'm not sure how any of those objections lead to "not mentally disturbed". If anything, constructing an entire propaganda apparatus to spread and enforce belief in blatant personal aggrandizing lies is even more crazy.

quote:
In the second, I'm not sure so sure that many people in the same position would act differently. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, etc. etc.
I agree completely. I think being in such a situation would make almost anyone crazy

Psychopathy is included in what I call crazy, though I think he is extremely deluded about the state of reality in addition to that -- he's surrounded by people who tell him he's beyond superlative constantly, and that will have an effect. The few accounts we have from people who've met him long enough to form an impression indicate he really does believe he's as great as his propaganda machine says.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would say 'weird' is probably more technically accurate (whatever that's worth for a word like that!) than 'crazy'. Strange, alien, etc.

Hell, I'm listening to a report on him and I think they even hedged on how old Un is! Or even when exactly he began any sort of real grooming process into being the heir apparent, and that the West in general knows very little about NK.

Given these kinds of things, I'm not sure how anyone can claim much real certainty about what'll happen.

Posts: 16180 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nighthawk
Member
Member # 4176

 - posted      Profile for Nighthawk   Email Nighthawk         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
I'm having a harder time finding my source for the cooks bit; that's based on a secondhand account of a foreigner brought in to cook for Kim Jong-il.

I can't find details of that either, but the author of book "I was King Jong-Il's Cook" still living in fear
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
... I meant laughable on an absolute scale.

quote:
If anything, constructing an entire propaganda apparatus to spread and enforce belief in blatant personal aggrandizing lies is even more crazy.
It's totally irrelevant whether it's laughable on an absolute scale. The only thing that really matters to a propaganda department is whether the propaganda convinces the target audience and whether that propaganda bolsters the regime/state.

In this case, a simple description of the North Korean regime would be a Stalinistic-state hybridized with a family dynasty ruling with divine right. Since there is no such thing as divine right, the propaganda department has to manufacture it with accounts of miracles and superhuman feats. The target audience is North Koreans, not Americans, nor any "absolute scale." It would perhaps be irrational to propagandize if it wasn't working, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think people bandy "crazy," around quite a bit when what they *mean* is psychopathic. To the average person, and at a glance, it can really look like the same thing. Grandiosity, total lack of shame or remorse, total denial of flaws- these things are not necessarily signs of insanity.

Telling people, in all seriousness, that you are an international fashion icon, when you may know very well that your appearance makes you the source of amusement the world over, may not *be* crazy. It certainly does *seem* crazy. But then, he did rule for almost two decades while doing things like that.

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Orincoro, what does crazy mean if psychopaths don't count? "Crazy" isn't exactly an official psychological diagnosis. Its only meaning comes from usage, doesn't it?
Posts: 3542 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jeff C.
Member
Member # 12496

 - posted      Profile for Jeff C.           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Orincoro, what does crazy mean if psychopaths don't count? "Crazy" isn't exactly an official psychological diagnosis. Its only meaning comes from usage, doesn't it?

Agree 100%
Posts: 1320 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
James Tiberius Kirk
Member
Member # 2832

 - posted      Profile for James Tiberius Kirk           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Orincoro, what does crazy mean if psychopaths don't count? "Crazy" isn't exactly an official psychological diagnosis. Its only meaning comes from usage, doesn't it?

Agree 100%
Can't speak for Orincoro, but I take it that he means that psychopaths generally don't suffer from delusions and hallucinations. Psychopaths are a lot of things, but they aren't actually "insane."
Posts: 3606 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's totally irrelevant whether it's laughable on an absolute scale. The only thing that really matters to a propaganda department is whether the propaganda convinces the target audience and whether that propaganda bolsters the regime/state.

In this case, a simple description of the North Korean regime would be a Stalinistic-state hybridized with a family dynasty ruling with divine right. Since there is no such thing as divine right, the propaganda department has to manufacture it with accounts of miracles and superhuman feats. The target audience is North Koreans, not Americans, nor any "absolute scale." It would perhaps be irrational to propagandize if it wasn't working, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Evaluated purely from a political effectiveness perspective, sure. I'm also going from a connection with reality perspective, where that critique does not apply. If realpolitik was all that mattered, the world would be a very different (and much worse) place.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm having difficulty following your train of thought. When you talk about things like what "matters," I think you're trying to bring in ethics, which is irrelevant when we're deciding whether Kim Jong-il is crazy.

The political effectiveness is what matters on that question. If the intent and the results of the propaganda was counterproductive to his survival, then it would maybe serve as some evidence toward the idea that he was crazy. Since it is effective, it doesn't seem to.

When you talk about things like what matters to you (i.e. ethics from context), that only really goes toward evidence that he's a psychopath. But, again, that's a separate issue.

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Orincoro, what does crazy mean if psychopaths don't count? "Crazy" isn't exactly an official psychological diagnosis. Its only meaning comes from usage, doesn't it?

Well, I would say it means "insane."

Psychopathic people are not insane.

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yep.
Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility among others (Cleckley, 1982; Hare et al., 1990)"

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/55051

From Webster's dictionary:
SANE, adj, \sān\
1: proceeding from a sound mind : rational
2: mentally sound; especially : able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions
3: healthy in body

I'd reckon that "failure to learn from experience" would keep the psychopath from the ability to be "able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions".

Posts: 1193 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't you think if you knew a psychopath in real life, you and your friends would frequently call that person "crazy"?
Posts: 4357 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty certain I'd call someone who held a dancing gala for high level government officials and made them dance with naked pleasure girls, but told them not to touch, crazy.

(Another fun activity of Kim Jong-il.)

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On the other hand, I have difficulty seeing why that would necessitate insanity. That barely rises out of what one would normally classify as cruel and sadistic. There are people who pay for that kind of stuff here [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
Don't you think if you knew a psychopath in real life, you and your friends would frequently call that person "crazy"?

If you knew a psychopath in real life, you and your friends probably wouldn't even notice.

quote:
Perhaps a psychopathic serial killer’s most frightening quality is his ability to live unnoticed among fellow humans. He appears normal. He may even be intelligent and charming – and probably has to be to enable him to lure his victims
quote:
Psychopaths – also labelled sociopaths or antisocial personalities – do not suffer from mental illness but from a character flaw. They have a firm grasp of reality, know right from wrong, and know that killing is wrong. But they simply don’t care. Psychopaths lack a vital component of the human personality that most take for granted – a conscience. They may have no conscience at all, or it may be the case that their conscience is too weak to inhibit the violence they commit. Psychopaths kill without guilt and without remorse.
http://www.iss.org.za/uploads/CQ27_Labuschagne.pdf
Posts: 7338 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
It'll take a lot more than a generation; east Germany had a much smaller gap in comparison, and a probably far more peaceable reunion, and it took them a lot longer.

quote:
Odd, is any of this on wikipedia?
http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/golf/news/article/-/12408428/kim-jong-il-remembered-in-sporting-terms/1/desc/

I'm having a harder time finding my source for the cooks bit; that's based on a secondhand account of a foreigner brought in to cook for Kim Jong-il.

One might also include having your military foreign filmmakers to make films for you in the list of obviously mentally problematic activities. Or lying to the country that the South Korean populace would love to come North (and that life is hugely better in the North), except they are cruelly prevented by corrupt leaders and the Americans.

Oh your referring to the father? I thought you were referring to Kim Jong Eun who I really don't think we know anything about. I was however thoroughly disappointed when I found from pictures he was a little chubby. As a chubby person myself well... I know what comes with the territory, if he was thin I would place good odds on him being energetic.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
"Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility among others (Cleckley, 1982; Hare et al., 1990)"

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/55051

From Webster's dictionary:
SANE, adj, \sān\
1: proceeding from a sound mind : rational
2: mentally sound; especially : able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions
3: healthy in body

I'd reckon that "failure to learn from experience" would keep the psychopath from the ability to be "able to anticipate and appraise the effect of one's actions".

An argument from etymology is pretty weak in this case. Psychopaths can and do understand the consequences of their actions. The "not learning from their experience," refers to recitivism, which is high, because psychopaths do not have a normal capacity for fear and shame, not because they do not understand consequences. You are out of your depth, if this choice of words forms the basis of your argument.

It is a commonly accepted fact that psychopathy is not insanity, so as I said before, while I understand the use of the term "crazy" to refer to psychopaths, they are nevertheless not necessarily insane.

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You're arguing that a psychopath ISN'T sane -- that one word isn't correlated to another. Isn't that an etymological argument?

From an objective standpoint (and allowing for Wikipedia research) it appears that the psychological community is even having a difficult time deciding whether it is (or isn't) a personality disorder.

I would contend that a psychopath isn't ENTIRELY sane, as most of the texts state that decision-making is compromised in some capacity, refuting the "sound mind" primary definition of sanity. From a lay-person standpoint, psychopaths are definitely deviant (to say the least), in that most of their emotional responses are feigned. They AREN'T normal. From my objective viewpoint, they aren't sane.

As a laymen, I would have an entirely different definition of sanity. I think that most normal, rational people would behave in a similar manner toward a similar set of stimulus. To behave differently from a prediction of normal behavior would be -- IMO -- insanity.

Posts: 1193 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
You're arguing that a psychopath ISN'T sane -- that one word isn't correlated to another. Isn't that an etymological argument?

No. Not any more than saying a car is not a horse constitutes an etymological argument. Insanity is a discrete state, different from psychopathy- I don't base that statement of fact solely on the definitions being different. The two things are not the same.


quote:
I would contend that a psychopath isn't ENTIRELY sane, as most of the texts state that decision-making is compromised in some capacity, refuting the "sound mind" primary definition of sanity.
The primary definition you are referring to is a dictionary definition, not a clinical definition. It is not appropriate to base your view of a cognitive pathology on how its clinical description matches up with a dictionary definition of "sanity." In doing so, you are interjecting your very much *not* objective bias towards the assumption that abnormal behavior or a particular cognitive deficit constitutes insanity.

According to that logic, in case you are not following- we could assign virtually any cognitive deficit as a determination of insanity. The mentally retarded are "insane," according to your reasoning; as are those suffering from clinical depression, bipolar disorder, memory loss, dementia, and other common cognitive deficits.


quote:
From my objective viewpoint, they aren't sane.
Your viewpoint does not encompass a complete understanding of the difference between a cognitive pathology and insanity. And you are not being objective- you are favoring a personal bias based on fallacious reasoning.

quote:
As a laymen, I would have an entirely different definition of sanity. I think that most normal, rational people would behave in a similar manner toward a similar set of stimulus. To behave differently from a prediction of normal behavior would be -- IMO -- insanity.
Again, this is an argument based on your private etymology. Your "objective viewpoint," is one from which insanity and psychopathy are indiscernable as discreet classes of object. That does not establish a strong argument in favor of your conclusion, but constitutes only an argument from incredulity. *You* do not appreciate the distinction, and therefore the distinction is *not* appreciable. This is not a reasonable basis for an argument.

quote:
To behave differently from a prediction of normal behavior would be -- IMO -- insanity.
Unfortunately for you, this is not what insanity means. Behavior that deviates from the social norm does not even establish the existence of a pathology.

Honestly, do you realize what you're saying? Do you realize that that brand of reasoning is what put homosexuals into mental hospitals in centuries past? What caused depressives to be lobotomized in the 20th century? The idea that a person who doesn't act normal is insane, is aside from being completely wrong, is actually fairly scary.

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm glad you can shift so freely between dictionary definitions, subjective definitions, and clinical definitions -- while ignoring all three. I guess we don't all have to be bound by . . . sanity.
Posts: 1193 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And an ad hominem attack on me, for some reason, to round things out.

I'm sorry you're out of your depth, but it's not my fault you don't know what you're talking about. That's you're fault. I may be smarter than you, but I wouldn't call your inability to reason this out properly a sign that you are insane. You're just mistaken.

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I apologize that I upset you, Orincoro. However your argument is a rambling mess.

Definition is bound by consensus. I've quoted dictionary, clinical, and my own subjective definitions -- you disagree with all three. I understand that.

Do you have a good reason why? I'll engage in a rational debate. But for you to try to "win" by resorting to logical fallacies makes no sense.

Posts: 1193 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, the book that has "the most influential clinical description of psychopathy in the 20th century" is called "The Mask of Sanity" and describes it as a mental disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mask_of_Sanity

I don't purport to be a definitive source, nor that I can can twist a logical argument to alter fact. I'll just refer to the experts.

Posts: 1193 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:

Definition is bound by consensus..

Yes it is, and you are committing the logical fallacy of claiming the consensus viewpoint, when you do not, in fact, possess it.

quote:
But for you to try to "win" by throwing out logical fallacies makes no sense.
Actually it does. Your assessment of the facts here is incorrect. I can show you how it is incorrect by pointing out the inconsistencies in your reasoning, and the fallacious quality of your arguments. I don't *win*, I defend the statement I made against fallacious arguments, which is easy.

quote:
I apologize that I upset you, Orincoro. However your argument is a rambling mess.

You haven't upset me. You've insulted me repeatedly in an attempt to upset me, and now you've made a facetious apology in an attempt to patronize and undercut me, because your reasoning is too weak to stand on its own. This rather conveniently demonstrates how weak your position on this actually is. And it does not upset me, it tickles me.

So don't worry, not that you were worried. [Wink]

quote:
Okay, the book that has "the most influential clinical description of psychopathy in the 20th century" is called "The Mask of Sanity" and describes it as a mental disorder.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is a mental disorder. Do PTSD victims qualify as insane?

What you are not understanding is that mental disorder and insanity are not the same. Psychopathy is a mental disorder. Yes. However, being psychopathic does not make a person insane. It does not inhibit a person's ability to tell right from wrong, or to appreciate the reality around them, or to act rationally in response to that reality. Everything that is wrong with a psychopath is related not to his/her attachment with reality, but to his/her ability to experience emotion in a normal way.


quote:
Seriously, I don't know why I let you get me so worked up. . . .
I don't know. Maybe you should take a break if you're not enjoying yourself. [Big Grin]

[ December 20, 2011, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]

Posts: 9495 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2