FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Death of an Idol (Page 2)

  This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7   
Author Topic: The Death of an Idol
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post 
Robert A Heilein's views on sex got in the way of his later works being great...and then just got in the way of them being readable.

I haven't read any current Card in awhile (my quiet time is next to zip with the two small children, not for any other reason). Has Card's bigotry started to leak into his writing?

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post 
Depends on who you ask and how sensitive you are to it.

I don't think so, though.

Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JanitorBlade
Administrator
Member # 12343

 - posted      Profile for JanitorBlade   Email JanitorBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
JT: That may be, but outside the TOS is outside the TOS. I am not privy to the things Mr. Card has said to you personally. I can only call it as I see it.

I would rather you edit your own post so the post can adhere to your intent as much as reasonably possible. If I just remove chunks it scuffs up the whole thing. Removing an entire post is easy, but editing one, where I might even have to add words is not a very enjoyable task. If you insist, I will, but I'd very much prefer you edit your own posts when I ask.

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by SnuggleSmacks:
Maybe I'll just put them in storage for a bit. I certainly can't support him by paying actual money for any of his future work, and I could not currently re-read any of my collection without filtering everything through his hate-mongering. I don't particularly want to donate, although that was my first instinct, because I don't really want to garner more fans at the moment.

I think I just feel that my entire childhood, filled with these books, has been violated. I'm not even gay, but I have friends who are, and I can't even imagine how Card's "gay friends" feel about this article.

A friend suggested that I pack up the books with a strongly worded letter regarding my feelings of violation by one of my idols, and drop the whole package off on his doorstep.

I'll take them off your hands, I'll pay for shipping to Canada.

Personally considering hack writers who I've had to personally converse and socialize with who through their own actions make me despise them greatly, I have to give Mr Card great credit in the degree that he maintains his artist-reader professionalism, he doesn't for example to to these forums and insults his fans like say Stuart Slade, or John Ringo.

I've also personally not noticed his political or social views per se in his fiction, some in Ender in Exile but I was in a mental stance to have been actively looking for them and likely would not have noticed otherwise. And absolutely nothing in Shadows in Flight.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post 
From the comments in the OSC article in the OP:

quote:
"I have a lot of gay friends" is the new " I have a lot of black friends".
[ROFL]
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
I have gay friends. I want them to have the same rights as me. For my part, it was getting to know gay people that made me give two craps about gay rights. Nobody is born a saint, but I think it's worse if you actually *have* gay friends, and you still think like this.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SnuggleSmacks:
[qb]

I've also personally not noticed his political or social views per se in his fiction, some in Ender in Exile but I was in a mental stance to have been actively looking for them and likely would not have noticed otherwise. And absolutely nothing in Shadows in Flight.

That is frankly surprising to me. I saw all the same messages in SiF that were in EiE. Even more, given that the book devotes considerable attention to the incest taboo, and argues passionately in favor of nuclear family building taking precedence over worries of incestuous love and inbreeding.

All the uncomfortable references to incest didn't strike you in any way? Or did you see that as being distinct from the social contract speechifying in EiE? Just curious.

Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
I have gay friends. I want them to have the same rights as me.

I have gay friends, and I tell them they're just playing dress-up when they marry. I make sure to mention them in my articles to make sure everyone understands that I am the tolerant one.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Nobody is born a saint, but I think it's worse if you actually *have* gay friends, and you still think like this.
I remember when McCain was running for office the first time and he said spouted some standard anti-abortion rhetoric. One of the reporters asked him how he would feel if his daughter got an abortion, and he hemmed and hawed and said something to the effect that personal questions were unfair.

I knew he wasn't the guy for me right then, regardless of anything else-- because if you take a stand on some value, it should apply regardless of who is affected (alternatively, change your value to match your current understanding of morality).

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
I think that's what we can safely call a foolish consistency.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think that's what we can safely call a foolish consistency.

Aw. I even allowed for a change in value!
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The only thing I can say is, that it's sad OSC is suffering like that. I have seen it happen before, people being great at some point in their lives and later sort of breaking down instead of growing. Very sad.

For me it is not a reason to throw away his books. I remember how he used to be, some 10 years ago. That guy must still be there, I guess today his brains are playing tricks on him.

For me, this is way worse that what is in JT's post. The implication that OSC is crazy is much more offensive to open dialog than outright insult because it attempts to undermine the reliability of the target in a way that cannot be defended against (nor can it be verified).

There's no indication that OSC is anything but sane. His ideas may be wrong, but to insinuate that he's delusional because he's expressing an unpopular opinion is to deny the ability for communication.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
El JT de Spang
Member
Member # 7742

 - posted      Profile for El JT de Spang   Email El JT de Spang         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
There's no indication that OSC is anything but sane.

No indication to you.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
El JT de Spang
Member
Member # 7742

 - posted      Profile for El JT de Spang   Email El JT de Spang         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
JT: That may be, but outside the TOS is outside the TOS. I am not privy to the things Mr. Card has said to you personally. I can only call it as I see it.

I think that's a pretty biased reading of the TOS. I can't remember anyone being edited or asked to edit over saying 'before [poster X] went crazy'. So, if you want it gone, you are within both your rights and authority to remove it. I believe it is true, and perfectly fair given the things that OSC himself has said on this website, so I will not.

----------

I apologize for putting you in a difficult spot, JB. I have nothing but respect for you, fighting what is ultimately a losing battle here. But I'm not going to pretend I'm ok with the stuff OSC has written, or give him courtesies he has not extended me. I fully understand that you have to enforce the TOS, though.

Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
I assume we're not using crazy in the 'let's pseudodiagnose formal mental illness' sense. Well, I hope. If we are doing that rather than using crazy in the "the stuff he is espousing is more than a little bit openly delusional" sense please let me know ahead of time so I can eat popcorn, say stuff like "IN BEFORE GRAVEYARD" and laugh my butt off over Sa'eed showing his Birds of a Feather solidarity with OSC' sticking to his guns or whatever.

Otherwise, I suppose we can continue.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Robert A Heilein's views on sex got in the way of his later works being great...and then just got in the way of them being readable.


Huh. His later books were some of my favorites. I started with TEFL and "Stranger" is a classic.

Scott, I read Ginette's post as less "he's going crazy" as "declining with age". Sort of like what I think the Rev. Wright is experiencing.

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
Nobody is born a saint, but I think it's worse if you actually *have* gay friends, and you still think like this.
I remember when McCain was running for office the first time and he said spouted some standard anti-abortion rhetoric. One of the reporters asked him how he would feel if his daughter got an abortion, and he hemmed and hawed and said something to the effect that personal questions were unfair.

I knew he wasn't the guy for me right then, regardless of anything else-- because if you take a stand on some value, it should apply regardless of who is affected (alternatively, change your value to match your current understanding of morality).

I've wasted quite a bit of thought on John McCain, and I think he is far more liberal in his personal life than he would like people to believe. Both his wife and daughter have assisted pro gay right campaigns. The same daughter is openly pro-choice while being proudly republican. Suffice to say the people who he loves and is influenced by either do not share his ideals or he blatantly lies for his political career.

Either way I do not find him amusing and every election I hope for a proper replacement to run against him.

Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
We've got a number of seniors on here-- would it be acceptable to declare that their opinions are a figment of their age? Shall we patronize and belittle them on the basis of their age (rather than on the merit or value of their ideas), when we find that they disagree with what we think?

JB has pretty much already called this one-- back to ideas.

Let me note that OSC published Hypocrites of Homosexuality back in 1990 (before he published Xenocide and Children of the Mind, and shortly after he started publishing his Alvin Maker series, by the way). So the idea that these attitudes are endemic to his age is pretty preposterous.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AchillesHeel
Member
Member # 11736

 - posted      Profile for AchillesHeel   Email AchillesHeel         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
We've got a number of seniors on here-- would it be acceptable to declare that their opinions are a figment of their age? Shall we patronize and belittle them on the basis of their age (rather than on the merit or value of their ideas), when we find that they disagree with what we think?
It would be interesting to see the shoe on the other foot for a little while. [Wink]
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
I am not saying that I agree with Ginette - just giving a softer reading. And I think that you are confusing cause and effect. I don't think that any one should be thought loopier because they are old, but if they do get loopy, age could be a reason.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I am not saying that I agree with Ginette - just giving a softer reading.

Wood is softer than aluminum, but it still can hit a baseball pretty far.

quote:
And I think that you are confusing cause and effect. I don't think that any one should be thought loopier because they are old, but if they do get loopy, age could be a reason.
Of course, I debate the effectiveness of even questioning whether someone is crazy (or loopy) in this particular medium. It's a pointless question given the information we have access to.

Deal with ideas, not the person.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
That the ideas are loopy is a given for most of us.

ETA: The OP was expressing grief for the person. Quite possibly a person he only imagined.

Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
Given that the ideas OSC's espousing keep winning in popular elections means... what in relation to this discussion on mental health?

That he may be wrong is possible; that his ideas may be harmful is also possible. But given that a number of elections have been held nationwide in which his ideas about marriage have been supported by a majority of voters indicates that at least in some states, he's got a LOT company.

Of course, majority rule does not indicate the health of an idea. Certainly, laws and practices have been upheld by the populace which were atrocious.

But crazy? How are we defining that word in terms of the evaluation of ideas?

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
That he may be wrong is possible
... possible?

"There are no laws left standing that discriminate against gay couples"

This is not 'possibly' wrong, it is wrong.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
If only the article you linked had examined how it was wrong. I mean, jeez! It's wikipediable!
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post 
I don't personally find OSC crazy, never having met the man, I don't find him much at all.

I find his ideas and thought process about marriage and gays to be crazy.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
From the original article_:
There are no laws left standing that discriminate against gay couples. They can visit each other in the hospital. They can benefit from each other's insurance.

No, legalizing gay marriage is not about making it possible for gay people to become couples.

The argument is based on this statement being true. It is not. You could also add statements about laws regarding custody and property rights. If these freedoms were (in fact) protected, he might have a valid moral argument (from a certain perspective).
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Misha McBride
Member
Member # 6578

 - posted      Profile for Misha McBride           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by SnuggleSmacks:
I certainly can't support him by paying actual money for any of his future work, and I could not currently re-read any of my collection without filtering everything through his hate-mongering. I don't particularly want to donate, although that was my first instinct, because I don't really want to garner more fans at the moment.

That's the point I reached a few years ago when I found out OSC had been actively campaigning for Prop 8. I've still got my huge paperback, hardback, and audiobook collection because I can't bear to throw them away, but I don't read any of it anymore. It's not out of petulance or principles or anything. I just can't help seeing everything he wrote through the lens of his hatred, I can't enjoy reading it anymore. I never posted about it here until now because I felt there would be little point. I'm sure OSC doesn't need my approval or care about me being disappointed in him (or in the person I thought he was).
Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Misha, that is just about my position as well, although I reached it a few years earlier than you did. I remember being so eager for the next OSC book to come out. Recently, I was reshelving books and was torn about whether to put the OSC books back on the shelves.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
If only the article you linked had examined how it was wrong. I mean, jeez! It's wikipediable!

This is how you say "yes, I agree, it is absolutely wrong" in your own inimitable style, I suppose.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GinetteB
Member
Member # 12390

 - posted      Profile for GinetteB           Edit/Delete Post 
When people are ruled by emotions, they can become completely unreasonable. If one of my loved ones starts yelling at me, I say: 'I don't have to listen to this' and I walk away. I don't really see why we can't do that when an author writes an article, obviously not with a clear mind.
Of course I don't know the cause of it, but I agree with Snuggles calling it 'paranoia', it does have all those wild guesses in it about some 'plot' and it does not contain any evidence.
I happen to care for OSC, so I hope he'll come to his senses and look at what he wrote from this perspective. That's all I wanted to say. I don't know if he is 'crazy' (whatever that may be) or not, my brains are also playing tricks on me sometimes, I just don't think I should write articles in such a state of mind.

Posts: 135 | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
If only the article you linked had examined how it was wrong. I mean, jeez! It's wikipediable!

This is how you say "yes, I agree, it is absolutely wrong" in your own inimitable style, I suppose.
Seems like it's how you say exactly what he said, namely that it's wrong but the article you linked didn't do a very good job of proving that it's wrong. Which I agree with.

I'm not one to give OSC a pass for his really weird and creepy stance toward gays, but I don't see what Scott has done to deserve this pointless needling.

Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post 
Samp: Not to dog pile here, but considering your own style is every bit as inimitable as Scott's, why are you throwing stones over details?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JanitorBlade
Administrator
Member # 12343

 - posted      Profile for JanitorBlade   Email JanitorBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
JT: That may be, but outside the TOS is outside the TOS. I am not privy to the things Mr. Card has said to you personally. I can only call it as I see it.

I think that's a pretty biased reading of the TOS. I can't remember anyone being edited or asked to edit over saying 'before [poster X] went crazy'. So, if you want it gone, you are within both your rights and authority to remove it. I believe it is true, and perfectly fair given the things that OSC himself has said on this website, so I will not.

----------

I apologize for putting you in a difficult spot, JB. I have nothing but respect for you, fighting what is ultimately a losing battle here. But I'm not going to pretend I'm ok with the stuff OSC has written, or give him courtesies he has not extended me. I fully understand that you have to enforce the TOS, though.

There's nothing biased about it. You're saying he has insulted you, but I certainly don't know anything about it other than you're saying he has. You're welcome to provide me with links. As it is, I can only moderate what is being said while I am moderator. If Mr. Card breaks his own TOS, that's a bridge I'll cross if we get to it.

At the very least one can accept that lately Mr. Card is a non-presence here. He isn't saying anything to anybody here or speaking about anybody here. We can extend him that courtesy I should think. His ideas are written with the obvious intent to be read, and discussed. You can think his ideas will lead to the destruction of humanity. I only have to step in if you leave that territory. If you wish to discuss Mr. Card's mental state, you won't be doing it here. There is a huge internet out there in which you can do it. Not here though.

I appreciate your allowing me to edit your posts as you yourself stand by what you are saying, but I'll most likely have to just remove the post, rather than have it read as some sort of "acceptable" iteration. I don't want to rewrite people's posts so they become in essence partially mine.

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
I have given up on reading OSC's books. Not only has the quality gone down, but I really cannot support such... hate. I think people need to start evolving past this whole gay is bad thing because it seems almost pathological, the energy that goes towards this issue.

But, yes, that article was completely illogical. As if there are not people on the right who have religions who don't support gay marriage? Left winged people don't marry and have kids? And in Utah two men who were married in MA got into an accident and the family barred the man's husband from seeing him. He didn't even get to say good bye to him. I don't know how OSC can think that gays have all of those rights and benefits of marriage.

Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
The reason why I stopped reading OSC's books is something I would LIKE to say had nothing to do with his political views and pretty nutty social commentary, but it's pretty impossible to be sure at all that those are completely divorced from trying to interpret his work cleanly. Not to mention, the breaking-point work for me was Empire, which probably compounded my issues of potential bias alongside being a painfully bizarre pretense at "neutrally" working a red-state vs. blue-state conflict into a story which ostensibly does not favor either ideology, perspective-wise, but really attacks the dangers of extremism (spoiler alert: nope)

either way, ehhhhhhhh, that was that, I was done.

quote:
Left winged people don't marry and have kids?
To be fair, it is really hard to find a mate when all you can do is fly in circles.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
He keeps making characters preach at people. I don't even like it when people I agree with do t hat. It gets in the way of the flow of the story.

Also, LOL!

Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
The best solution is to just identify when an author has, at least in your perspective, switched from nonpreachy to preachy. Plenty do. Then it's just a matter of not reading books that annoy you. Simple!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
True. I stopped reading Pathfinder because it annoyed me and it only had once instance of Marriage and Babies.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BBegley
Member
Member # 12638

 - posted      Profile for BBegley   Email BBegley         Edit/Delete Post 
Outside of Empire, which was unspeakably awful, I haven't seen any degradation in Card's novels. I didn't read the second Empire novel, so I don't know if it got better.

His world watch columns are completely detached from reality, and I wouldn't vote for him if he ran for office, but his novels continue to be excellent. I enjoyed Lost Gate, Pathfinder and Shadows in Flight this last year.

Posts: 49 | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Can I assume that you gave the Homecoming series a pass?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
Scott, do you actually believe there are no other laws which discriminate against homosexuals and you're just having fun with banter? Or are you suggesting Card's statement is right?

---------

I would be surprised if Card has said anything to JT personally that was insulting. But I think you and I know, JB, that Card has cast a pretty wide net over the past ten years or so making statements about a variety of topics on politics, sexuality, religion, and other social issues, of which at least a few were insulting. I think JT probably has some intersection there. I certainly do, and so do you for that matter. All three of us are at best poor misguided idiots helping America go down to defeat and destruction as a society, and at worst we're people who actually hate 'traditional values' in and of themselves.

Like JT, I've got a lot of respect for you and the maze you have to navigate, but is there really much point in behaving as though Card hasn't said these sorts of things?

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post 
JB/BB, For what it's worth, and I admit freely my opinion on the matter is weightless, JT has made his wishes clear. If you feel his post violated the TOS (I'm not sure I fully understand why you feel that way, as saying "before he went crazy" is not really name calling) then you should delete the post and just move on.

Just my dos centavos.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Rakeesh: I'm not worried about people saying a belief is reprehensible. I've stood by and let people call my beliefs delusional on many occasions. But the TOS do not allow for individuals to disparage each other on these boards. Mr. Card has indeed sounded off on many diverging topics, with varying degrees of agreement and disagreement. You can discuss how wrong he is all you want. You cannot discuss how crazy, stupid, or wicked you think he is. Even if Mr. Card calls a belief you hold one of those things in his column. The TOS does not extend to his column, it only governs here.

[ May 16, 2012, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tim_Ferno
Member
Member # 12628

 - posted      Profile for Tim_Ferno   Email Tim_Ferno         Edit/Delete Post 
I had a hard time reading the whole article (it's not even long).

It was right about here: "It's about giving the left the power to force anti-religious values on our children. Once they legalize gay marriage, it will be the bludgeon they use to make sure that it becomes illegal to teach traditional values in the schools."

What?

I don't recall ever being taught traditional values in school, but then I went to one of those small (about 70 kids per grade level) public ones, so that might explain it.

I graduated about 8 years ago, so the memories aren't exactly fresh... are the schools around Mr. Card really that different?

We covered common baby care and what have you in health class, but that was more focused around how not-to-kill the poor thing. Heck, they didn't even bother pairing us in classic male-female roles when we had to do the cliche "take care of electric doll" thing. We got to pick our own partners.

I'm just so ... confused. If he's afraid that schools are going to STOP teaching "traditional values" (what does that even mean?) well, i think that battle has already been lost.

Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
odouls268
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for odouls268   Email odouls268         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
but I really cannot support such... hate
Ok, the word "hate" has been used a couple of times now.
He doesn't "hate" anybody. He disapproves of their lifestyle.

Hate is something completely different, and altogether much more destructive and sinister.

In more than 20 years of knowing him personally, I have yet to see him express or exhibit hate towards anyone.

Except Pleasantville. I'm pretty sure he hated that.

Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't even know what that means. Traditional values. It's just that whole article and all of his other articles on the subject are just ... hysterical screeds. Let gays get married and gays will just be able to get married and enjoy all the rights straight people have when they marry. Like visitation rights.
The country won't fall apart. I live in MA. People are not marrying horses here. I'm marrying music in August, but other than that, things are the same.
Two people on my job married opposite sex partners, so people are still doing that here. Schools are probably too busy tormenting kids with boring tests and horrible recorders to either teach or not teach traditional values.
I really think his fears are unfounded and not based on reality.

Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by odouls268:

Except Pleasantville. I'm pretty sure he hated that.

It's an ugly truth, but some things need to be hated.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
Fair enough, JB. The ToS does indeed apply here though not to his columns.

But-not that it makes a difference to that point-Card has more than once gone quite a bit further than simply calling a belief delusional. That is, when you drill down through it, quite a common belief people hold about the beliefs of others. No, he has more than once suggested not just that a given belief is delusional, dangerous, stupid, and vile, but gone on to specifically apply terms like that to the people who believe them.

You're absolutely right, the ToS applies here and not to his political columns, which he writes with what is frankly a pretty mobile standard of courtesy and honesty towards the people he disagrees with. But given that he not uncommonly makes widespread specific attacks (that is, people who believe such and such are thus and so), people will feel attacked. And since this site has his name on it, it's unsurprising they will respond here as though they were replying to him, in which case the attacks on him in this thread given the context have frankly been quite mild.

None of that refutes your point about where the ToS applies and where it doesn't, I again admit.

Anyway, this thread has made me realize that it's been at least...I would estimate four years since I've read anything by Card that wasn't a column or a review. I hadn't noticed that before-prior to that, some of his work was a regular recurring theme for me. Once a year I'd read one of the Ender books (this was before all the Bean stuff), or Pastwatch, or some of his short stories, or Lost Boys, so on and so forth. At least two of the works just mentioned I would still rate as very powerful and moving, rating among a (very large, imprecise) list of my personal favorites for power and meaning.

I don't think I ever made a conscious decision, "I will stop reading Card because I strongly dislike his politics!" Instead it was more that I simply stopped enjoying the things he has published lately, and was at that time, that it was easier for his stuff to stay up on the shelf. That and recurring exposure through his columns to those views, but more than that the way in which he expresses them.

It wasn't an ethical concern or a desire to not support his work that stopped me-there are libraries or piracy if that were the case. It was for me a combination of not liking his new work, and having I think an antagonism towards reading old things of his after not long since reading his thoughts on politics and culture. My hand would simply keep moving along the shelf when I wasn't reading something new. I still rewatch Ninth Gate, for example, because it's one of my favorites, even though Polanski has done bad in ways that are in a totally separate ballpark from Card.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, I don't think he hates homosexuals, Odouls. But he has said more than a few things about, say, liberals that a reasonable reading would start to wonder if there was hatred.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 7 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2