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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Problem with Reading (Page 1)

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Author Topic: The Problem with Reading
Dr Strangelove
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Like my controversial title? [Wink]

A few days ago, I was struck by the desire to lose myself in a good book. So I busted out my Kindle and started searching. And searching. And searching. And after several hours of looking at hundreds, if not thousands of titles, I finally just decided to reread The Wise Man's Fear. Certainly not a bad choice, but it struck me just how difficult picking out a book to read can be. When I was younger and had time, I read pretty much anything I could get my hands on. I heard a whisper of something being good, I would read it, or I would just pick a book at random. The result of this was becoming quite familiar with the large quantity of crap that is written. Now that I have a lot less time to read, I don't want to waste the precious time I do have wallowing in some drivel.

I think part of my frustration comes from the fact that I am by now used to reading academic history books (this post is a procrastination from writing my PhD). With these books, there is a trail to follow. They have footnotes and bibliographies and historiographies, oh my! Within these books there is a web of interconnected goodness where interesting or useful topics can be traced and tracked, and then the process repeated with another book, and another. And it never really has to end. If I read a book that I like, I can find others like it referred within the same book. If there's something I dislike or disagree with, I can follow that too. I can trust (to an extent) reviews, because I feel confident that I am surrounded by people who value quality in a similar way as me. 'Tis glorious.

Reading fiction is by comparison so much more complicated, perhaps especially sci-fi/fantasy (though I'm not quite sure if its especially bad in those genres or I've just noticed it because it's where I like to hang out). There are no footnotes, or expositions on the strengths and weaknesses of other works in the field relative to what I am reading. I've learned not to trust reviews, and lately not even popularity is a remotely safe gauge (I'm looking at you, Twilight and 50 Shades). The best I can do is find people who have similar interests and ask for recommendations, but that also isn't reliable, and it is difficult to find people who are both similar in taste and have new suggestions.

I know the comparison between academic and fiction is not a good one, but the point stands that I feel lost in a sea of isolated books. I can read one, love it, and not know how to find something similar. Or if I read something and hate it, there's no way to know if the next book I pick will not be even worse.

It's crippling, really, and highly frustrating. Though perhaps I'm being overdramatic. I'm sure there are avenues I haven't explored, and this isn't a culmination of any grand thought or struggle. I'd just like a good book to read and I'm not sure how to find one.

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kmbboots
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I have found good things by checking out the blogs of favorite authors to see what they are reading.
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rivka
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Aren't you on Goodreads? Have you looked at the book pages of books you like for the "users who liked this also liked" feature?
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Dr Strangelove
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I'm not actually on Goodreads... one of those unexplored avenues I guess. I will have to check that out.
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TomDavidson
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You should just ask me what you should read next. [Smile]
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AchillesHeel
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What should you read... what should you eat for breakfast... where should you hide all your valuables and the spare house key outside your home in case you lock yourself out.

In all things refer to Tom.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
I'm not actually on Goodreads...

There's your problem.
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Dr Strangelove
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Hey Tom, what should I read next?
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TomDavidson
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Hrm. If you haven't already, I think you should try Railsea, by Mieville. It's not a great book, but it's a fun one, and it contains at least one amusing anagram.
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Itsame
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I'm with you, Strangelove. Academic reading has completely ruined me for non-academic reading.

Having asked a few friends about this, they all agree that it is much more difficult to read non-academic work than it used to be and add that they also read much more slowly than they used to.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Read Cormac McCarthy; he is the best writer ever and I love all of his books without question. Without. Question.


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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Too cheery and upbeat for me, I like those ones about literal irl trainwrecks where people end up eating each other


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happymann
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No footnotes in fiction? The exception to that rule is, of course, Terry Pratchett (or at least the only exception that I have found).
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Stephan
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Any fantasy recommendations for someone who hates Lord of the Rings but loves the Song of Ice and Fire. Big fan of Dark Tower and Stardust, but couldn't get into Tad Williams or Robert Jordan?
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TomDavidson
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Depending on how dark you want to go, I'd strongly recommend Joe Abercrombie, Robert Redick, Daniel Abraham, Scott Lynch, and Patrick Rothfuss (in reverse order of darkness).

Warning: all of these authors have series in progress. To my knowledge, only Redick, Abraham and Abercrombie have actually written at least one completed series. Abercrombie's Best Served Cold might be a good place to start, since it's almost a standalone novel. IMO, Abraham's Long Price Quartet is the best finished fantasy series written in the last twenty years.

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Szymon
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Try foreign writers. Read Lem. He is awesome.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Depending on how dark you want to go, I'd strongly recommend Joe Abercrombie, Robert Redick, Daniel Abraham, Scott Lynch, and Patrick Rothfuss (in reverse order of darkness).

Warning: all of these authors have series in progress. To my knowledge, only Redick, Abraham and Abercrombie have actually written at least one completed series. Abercrombie's Best Served Cold might be a good place to start, since it's almost a standalone novel. IMO, Abraham's Long Price Quartet is the best finished fantasy series written in the last twenty years.

Could not get into Rothfuss, but I will look into the others.
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Dr Strangelove
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Woah woah woah... couldn't get into Rothfuss? See, this is what I'm talking about! There's just no way to set any kind of measurable standard.

rivka, thanks for the add on Goodreads! I'm going through the registration process now. This actually does kinda look exactly like what I've been wanting. Though I'm still going to grumble about the fact that fiction authors can't be bothered to include bibliographies citing their inspirations.

And Tom, I'll try those out. I've got several days of nothingness followed by several days of travel (punctuated by long stretches of nothingness), so I'll try Railsea out at least and let you know what I think. And I don't think I've read Daniel Abraham either, so that sounds promising too.

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Stephan
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I might try him again. It was the audiobook of Name of the Wind. My mind kept drifting and I wasn't following the story.

quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
Woah woah woah... couldn't get into Rothfuss? See, this is what I'm talking about! There's just no way to set any kind of measurable standard.



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kmbboots
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I second Tom's recommendation of Long Price Quartet.

I suggest Guy Gavriel Kay as another author who is careful about language. Another advantage is that he has written several books and most stand alone. I would read Tigana first, I think.

http://www.brightweavings.com/

Are you mostly looking for SF/F recommendations?

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Dr Strangelove
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Edit: To Stephan

I mean, I guess it's possible not to like it. I hope you don't think that was at all a criticism of you or your taste in books. It's just that is one of my favorite books and everyone I've recommended it to has loved it, so it's hard to fathom someone not. I haven't recommended it to everyone though. Just everyone who likes things like A Song of Ice and Fire, hence my bafflement. But it just goes to show that everyone is different, which is what makes the whole process so frustrating.

As an aside, The Worthing Saga is one that I have a great time recommending. That one is definitely not for everyone, but it's fun getting to know someone well enough to say, "Hey, I have a book that I think you might like..." and then they come back to me a few weeks later saying how much they absolutely loved it. I'm 100% on that particular recommendation (well, aside from recommending it to my mother-in-law, but that wasn't because I thought she'd enjoy it. It was more so that she could understand what kind of books I enjoy).

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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Are you mostly looking for SF/F recommendations?

Not exclusively, but when I get a craving like this it's usually best filled by something that takes place in an unfamiliar world. I think it's some sort of escape mechanism when I'm feeling a bit pressured or down in the real world.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I second Tom's recommendation of Long Price Quartet.

I suggest Guy Gavriel Kay as another author who is careful about language. Another advantage is that he has written several books and most stand alone. I would read Tigana first, I think.

http://www.brightweavings.com/

Are you mostly looking for SF/F recommendations?

I'm good on sci-fi. Though if you know of anyone like Stephen Baxter/Robert J Sawyer/Robert Charles Wilson that write big ideas in a modern setting I'll take it.

I always thought I did not like fantasy. After my wife made me start Potter, I started considering it. Gaiman got me really interested. King's fantasy books and Song of Ice and Fire made me really want to branch out. Other than the Dark Tower, I can't really get into the "Long Walk" style though.

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Stephan
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I think I prefer great dialog to long drawn out descriptive scenery and fight scenes.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
Edit: To Stephan

I mean, I guess it's possible not to like it. I hope you don't think that was at all a criticism of you or your taste in books.

Don't worry, didn't take it personally. I actually know how you feel. With two kids under 3, two graduate classes, and a full time job, I don't want to invest time in a potentially bad book. Audio books on my commute help a lot though.

I have even tried getting into some media tie in series, thinking they might be some good light reading and a fun way to explore some much beloved character. I quickly discovered that while I can sit through a bad episode of Star Trek for 40 minutes to get to the next one, I definitely can't sit through a 300 page bad episode.

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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
(this post is a procrastination from writing my PhD)

I'm considering a malpractice suit, since you've been calling yourself Dr before earning your PhD.
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SteveRogers
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Tom got me to read The Name of the Wind. I am forever in his debt.
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Sean Monahan
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Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is replete with footnotes, although they are fictional. The footnotes were one of the most delightful things about that book.
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TomDavidson
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Jonathan Strange is actually in the running for my favorite book of all time. The follow-up collection of short stories is pretty good, too, since they're really distilled footnotes. [Smile]

As a side note: none of my recommendations take audiobooks into account. I don't have much experience with them.

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advice for robots
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I second or third Tom's recommendations, wherever we're at on them.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
(this post is a procrastination from writing my PhD)

I'm considering a malpractice suit, since you've been calling yourself Dr before earning your PhD.
[Razz] . Forgive a 17 year olds vanity in naming himself after an insane wheelchair bound crazy person. Though I would actually be really interested in seeing a malpractice suit against a historian. There are several I can think of who are deserving...
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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Jonathan Strange is actually in the running for my favorite book of all time. The follow-up collection of short stories is pretty good, too, since they're really distilled footnotes. [Smile]

As a side note: none of my recommendations take audiobooks into account. I don't have much experience with them.

It's a bit of a tough read -- not everyone has the patience for Victorian-style writing. But it is good.

I'd recommend checking out the Suvudu Cage Match. It'll direct you to all of the biggest fan-favorite series. It pointed me to Brent Week's Night Angel trilogy -- one I hadn't heard of. Not the strongest writing, but as entertaining as Sanderson's Mistborn series. If you haven't read either, they're both outstanding.

You can also try Garth Nix's Old Kingdom series or Pullman's His Dark Materials.

Sci-fi, grab some Vonnegut, Dick, or Heinlein. It doesn't really matter which one.

http://suvudu.com/tag/cage-match-2012
http://suvudu.com/cage-match

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advice for robots
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
(this post is a procrastination from writing my PhD)

I'm considering a malpractice suit, since you've been calling yourself Dr before earning your PhD.
[Razz] . Forgive a 17 year olds vanity in naming himself after an insane wheelchair bound crazy person. Though I would actually be really interested in seeing a malpractice suit against a historian. There are several I can think of who are deserving...
Hari Seldon, maybe, in the spirit of this thread?
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Teshi
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I find it easier to read non-fiction (although not necessarily or even usually academic non-fiction) when I'm busy so I've done a lot more non-fiction reading recently.

However, I have managed to take some time off to read a few fiction books-- but found the same kind of difficulty in picking an excellent and readable novel. I recently discovered Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave, a King Arthur/Merlin epic which I was amazed I hadn't read as a teenager.

quote:
Sci-fi, grab some Vonnegut, Dick, or Heinlein. It doesn't really matter which one.
See, I never managed to get into any of these.
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Lyrhawn
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Dr. S and JonH -

See, after years of academic reading, and one incredibly intense year of a masters program, I actually find reading fiction to be a cool breath of fresh air. It's different, and I still find myself analyzing more than enjoying in a way that I'll probably never quite be able to get away from thanks to 6+ years of higher education that focuses on deconstruction and close reading.

But I LOVE being able to read a book without having a notepad next to me. It's gloriously freeing.

At least... I think it is. I honestly can't remember the last fiction book I read for fun. I started reading Moby Dick a few weeks ago based on someone's recommendation, but I only got about 100 pages in before I had to put it down to work on my masters thesis. I read Hunger Games before the movie came out, but a fluke in my schedule gave me a spare four hours to tackle it.

But still...I dream of being able to read more fiction, and being able to moderate the soul-crushing weight of a mountain of academic texts (much as I love them as well).

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SteveRogers
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Teshi, what Heinlein book did you try to read? Out of curiousity.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Dr. S and JonH -

See, after years of academic reading, and one incredibly intense year of a masters program, I actually find reading fiction to be a cool breath of fresh air. It's different, and I still find myself analyzing more than enjoying in a way that I'll probably never quite be able to get away from thanks to 6+ years of higher education that focuses on deconstruction and close reading.

But I LOVE being able to read a book without having a notepad next to me. It's gloriously freeing.

At least... I think it is. I honestly can't remember the last fiction book I read for fun. I started reading Moby Dick a few weeks ago based on someone's recommendation, but I only got about 100 pages in before I had to put it down to work on my masters thesis. I read Hunger Games before the movie came out, but a fluke in my schedule gave me a spare four hours to tackle it.

But still...I dream of being able to read more fiction, and being able to moderate the soul-crushing weight of a mountain of academic texts (much as I love them as well).

I do agree that non-academic reading can be incredibly refreshing (hence my yearning for something to read). Part of the problem is the aforementioned lack of ease in finding good non-academic reading, but thinking about it, this probably stems from a deeper problem. Reading high-quality academic texts (and yes, I've read low quality ones too, but this is the beauty of references - it is much easier to find a high quality academic text and be sure of its merits) has increased my desire for quality, and perhaps even fostered a keener appreciation of what counts as quality. Academic texts are (or should be) tightly argued, consistent, compelling, and original. Obviously they don't all succeed, but there usually is at least the attempt. There are waaayyy too many fiction books out there that seem not to even try, and as you note, it is hard enough to find time to read fiction books at all. I certainly don't want to waste that precious time.

A quick example of this would be dangling references. Like I said, I'm no literary critic, so that's a term I just made up 3 seconds ago, so if someone has a better or more official term, let me know. But what I mean is when an author seems to clue you in to something important, bringing it to attention of the reader, seemingly dangling the promise of further development... and then there's nothing. No further development or reference. Those seem to slip by editors much much more often in non-academic writing than in academic, and they frustrate me to no end.

All that to say, I completely agree with you that the desire and enjoyment of reading fiction can be heightened by drowning in academic texts. But I think it also true that a life of reading academic texts can make it more difficult to read crappy fiction. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Just frustrating when craving and opportunity coincide, but no good books present themselves.

And just to say, in my experience, If you keep going for a PhD and take comps, you'll think of your current soul-crushing weight as a nice leisurely stroll in the park. And compared to many of my peers, I had a very easy comps committee. Though it all definitely varies by program.

(This actually is a pretty interesting line of thought that I hadn't really spent much time expressly thinking about. But I wonder about the correlation between my desire for a good hisstory and a desire for a good story. Do I hold my fantasy literature up to the same standards as my history texts? And should I? And perhaps more interestingly, do I hold my history texts (and writing) to the same standard as fantasy literature?)


Edit: Dang, I am just in a wall-o'-text kinda mood I guess. Apologies for being overly verbose. I blame it on dissertating.

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advice for robots
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I don't see the need to choose either academic or fiction reading. The two occupy separate spaces in my life. I've done a moderate amount of academic reading in my time, but I wouldn't choose it for leisure. Reading fiction has always been a necessary part of sane living for me, even at the times when I've had a heavy load of academic study to do. I don't want my fiction to be thoroughly referenced and backed by fact. I want it to be well-written and internally consistent, but that's about it. There's a whole different quality scale for fiction. I read it for escape, not for new knowledge. I wouldn't pick up a book of fiction that read like an academic paper. I don't want my analytical screws turning when I'm reading deliberately for pleasure.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
I don't want my fiction to be thoroughly referenced and backed by fact.

Yeah, I wondered if I might have come across like that. I don't have any desire for an author to explain or justify themselves to me, or a footnote that explains why something is possible or anything like that. Really, I don't want my fiction to be academic. *shudder*. That would be awful. I completely agree that they exist in separate spheres (one interesting exception I've come across is Anathem by Neil Stephenson. I would so assign that to a Philosophy of Science class).

I just want finding good fiction books to be as easy as finding good academic books. It's not realistic for a fiction book to have a bibliography where influences are listed or a genealogy of the story is given. But wouldn't finding the next book to read be a heck of lot easier if they did?

And what I meant by holding each to the others standards was more in the sense of consistency of the story. By academic writing, I personally interact with history almost exclusively. I believe that historians, maybe more than any other academic profession, are in the business of telling stories. What makes a good story in the historical profession? What makes a good story in fantasy literature? Are there similarities and can one learn from the other? I am in no way worried about one becoming the other or really interfering with the others sphere. I wouldn't last very long in academia if I wrote my dissertation a la Patrick Rothfuss or even Isaac Asimov. But the question of the relationship between the two types of stories remains an intriguing one.

Quick edit of my quick edit: Oh, and I don't know how much academic reading you've done, but over the past year (three really), I've done a lot. A sickening amount. So there's not really any hope of my analytical wheels not turning every time I pick up a book. Not that I am looking to learn something from a fiction book (though it's always a nice surprise), but I am looking for a certain level of consistency, without which the academic side of my brain will revolt. It's not that I want it to be academic. I just want it to make sense. And maybe what makes sense to me has changed through an over-consumption of academic history books.

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rivka
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afr, amen.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
I believe that historians, maybe more than any other academic profession, are in the business of telling stories.
I think this is true of compelling history. I think that's one of the big differences in generations between history texts. Modern historians, even those writing for an academic audience, do their best to tell history as a story with real characters while backing it up with facts and what not. It's how I try to write. Of course, I often get dinged by professors for spending too much time on the narrative and not enough time on the argument, so it can be a slippery slope (and of course, maybe that's the difference between writing a 20 page paper or journal article and writing a book).

quote:
So there's not really any hope of my analytical wheels not turning every time I pick up a book.
I feel you. Like I said earlier, between my training in close reading and analysis and the sheer number of academic texts, I don't think I could turn it off entirely if I wanted to. It sucks a little of the fun out of it because plot holes are more glaring, and when people tell me "it's a book, just ENJOY it, don't analyze it," half the time I lament not being able to turn off my brain, but the other half I get a little pissy that the author couldn't plug the holes and just write a better story.

quote:
A quick example of this would be dangling references. Like I said, I'm no literary critic, so that's a term I just made up 3 seconds ago, so if someone has a better or more official term, let me know. But what I mean is when an author seems to clue you in to something important, bringing it to attention of the reader, seemingly dangling the promise of further development... and then there's nothing. No further development or reference. Those seem to slip by editors much much more often in non-academic writing than in academic, and they frustrate me to no end.
I call it foreshortening, to both borrow an art term and play on foreshadowing. It's an attempt to make the story look bigger than it really is without having to actually follow up your world building and plot with anything of substance.

Really it's a matter of opinion. Sometimes authors drop little things for the sake of enriching a story or give it color but the thing in question has nothing to do with the main plot, so they move on. And sometimes they dangle something intriguing in front of you and never actually fulfill the promise of that intrigue.

quote:
And just to say, in my experience, If you keep going for a PhD and take comps, you'll think of your current soul-crushing weight as a nice leisurely stroll in the park. And compared to many of my peers, I had a very easy comps committee. Though it all definitely varies by program.
Thanks for that. I'm already convinced my adviser hates me and wants me to die based on the amount of work I'm doing. I'll be applying to PhD programs in a couple months, but I'm not 100% sold on going on. Last year was an amazing experience I wouldn't have traded for anything. If I stop after the MA, I'll be satisfied for having come this far. I've soured on academia a little bit now that I'm immersed in it. It's not even the little stuff that sucks about academia, it's basically the job market. Higher education is changing in a way that favors even fewer professors than we already have, and getting a job is already tough. Not sure yet I want to invest 3-5 more years of my best career building years in a potentially dying industry (from a professor's point of view).

But, I'm going to apply to 4-5 schools and see what happens. I'm not very hopeful, but if I got into Michigan, there's probably no force on earth that could stop me from going. If I even get in anywhere else, it'd be a toss-up. I don't know.

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kmbboots
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If you like all the puzzle pieces explained and don't insist on SF/F, I suggest mysteries. Agatha Christie is good at weaving in the details.

Edit: A great book where all the pieces come together is "The Way to the Lantern" by Audry Erskine Lindop. It is out of print but there are used copies on Amazon. It is set during the French Revolution.

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TomDavidson
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As a side note: if you hate "dangling references," under no circumstances should you read Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrell.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Thanks for that. I'm already convinced my adviser hates me and wants me to die based on the amount of work I'm doing. I'll be applying to PhD programs in a couple months, but I'm not 100% sold on going on. Last year was an amazing experience I wouldn't have traded for anything. If I stop after the MA, I'll be satisfied for having come this far. I've soured on academia a little bit now that I'm immersed in it. It's not even the little stuff that sucks about academia, it's basically the job market. Higher education is changing in a way that favors even fewer professors than we already have, and getting a job is already tough. Not sure yet I want to invest 3-5 more years of my best career building years in a potentially dying industry (from a professor's point of view).

But, I'm going to apply to 4-5 schools and see what happens. I'm not very hopeful, but if I got into Michigan, there's probably no force on earth that could stop me from going. If I even get in anywhere else, it'd be a toss-up. I don't know.

Yeah, it's rough. I've done a lot of musings about job market and the like lately. One thing that I'm looking in to is playing both worlds by getting certifications in GIS, maybe some computer programming (still working on the feasibility of that), learning some useful languages (Arabic or Urdu for me, though Spanish would be smart too, and easy), stuff like that. We'll see though.

And in terms of work load for comps, it's all relative. I don't know about various programs, but where I am it's one major field and three minor fields, with the major field comps list clocking in between 150 - 200 books, and the minor fields anywhere from 25 - 100. For me the minors were around 50, with one 25, but I hear tales...
The thing to keep in mind though is that by the time you're comping, you likely have read at least half of the lists, sometimes almost all. For me it was good that my professors were pretty laid back, because I only took four months to prep. I still shudder to look back at those dark days though. Trying to fit all of that in your head and then get it out in both written and oral exams...
But yeah, I could ramble all day about grad school and academia.


Kate, I've read some Agatha Christi and do enjoy her. And I'll have to check out "The Way to the Lantern". I'm a bit leery of French Revolution books since that's my area of speciality, but when they are good, I enjoy them like little else. And I will read stuff that doesn't fit together seemlessly. I just really appreciate stuff that does, and have trouble with authors who seem to forget where they were going, or deliberately lead me nowhere. Not just to a dead end, or a red herring. The threads just... disappear.

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odouls268
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quote:
I don't want to waste the precious time I do have wallowing in some drivel.
Is it blasphemous that when I read this sentence the first thing that jumped into my head was the Wheel of Time series?
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kmbboots
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Heh. The threads that you forget about in "Lantern" will suddenly come back to strangle you. [Wink]
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Dr Strangelove
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Ah, my favorite kind of threads!
...
Was that a weird thing to say? Regardless, definitely one I will have to check out.

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Amilia
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I adore Connie Willis. My brother and I were listening to the audiobook of To Say Nothing of the Dog recently. We had both read the book previously multiple times. It was really fun to listen and see how very meticulously all the clues were laid out, and how all the threads were gathered up together at the end. (Also, Steven Crossley, the reader, is excellent. If you are into audiobooks, I recommend this one.)
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Jonathan Strange is actually in the running for my favorite book of all time. The follow-up collection of short stories is pretty good, too, since they're really distilled footnotes. [Smile]

As a side note: none of my recommendations take audiobooks into account. I don't have much experience with them.

See, there you lost all credit with me. I LOVE reading, and fantasy in particular, but I never even finished that book. Honest. It's is exactly what I SHOULD like, and lots of people recommended it to me, but I found it boring, poorly written, and quite full of itself.

Between this and your distaste of Guy Kay, I think I might have to "unfriend" you in Goodreads. [Wink]

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TomDavidson
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I think it's hysterical that you thought Clarke was full of herself but can manage to stomach Kay. [Smile]
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