FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » English words that mostly appear in print, how did they form?

   
Author Topic: English words that mostly appear in print, how did they form?
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
Take 'askance'. Does one look at something 'ask-ance', that is, questioningly? Or is it 'a-skance', which could mean either sideways, askew, or "as one looks over a sconce", as at an approaching army? ('Sconce' is a part of a fortification, and its cognates appear in other Germanic languages as a warlike metaphor, eg Hitler's Alpine retreat was called 'Wolfsschanze' and in Norwegian 'siste skanse' is the idiomatic translation of what in English would be called the 'last ditch'.)

Also 'awry'. Is it 'a-wry', becoming wry, ie pawky, worthy of sarcasm? Or is it 'aw-ry', as in evoking a sympathetic 'aw, too bad'?

These questions cry out for answers!

Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Szymon
Member
Member # 7103

 - posted      Profile for Szymon   Email Szymon         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, and then you have a jar. I mean, ajar. Is the door is ajar, because someone put a jar there?

[ September 10, 2012, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Szymon ]

Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Askance = a-skance.
Awry = a-wry.

Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post 
I use bawdy frequently, and nobody gets it. Ribald, sometimes . . . but rarely. Fetid and obsequious are a few more.

I've heard awry fairly commonly in the real world.

Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Askance = a-skance.
Awry = a-wry.

How do you know?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post 
Etymology dictionaries, plus actual dictionaries. [Smile]
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Szymon
Member
Member # 7103

 - posted      Profile for Szymon   Email Szymon         Edit/Delete Post 
I simply love all a-beginning words. When I took English classes in high school (as a non-english speaker) I kept finding new ones.

I always thought that it used to be a grammar thing that changed into lexical thing. Like, around. Round, as a shape, adjective, had the a- added to make it a verb, something that goes on a round path. Accourage, to encourage. So the a- was like en- now. Aloft, in the air, loft meaning air in old German or scandinavian or whatever. Maybe a- was like of, o' or something.

Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Szymon
Member
Member # 7103

 - posted      Profile for Szymon   Email Szymon         Edit/Delete Post 
Actually it's in modern time German, I think, there's the luftwaffe.
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
I use bawdy frequently, and nobody gets it. Ribald, sometimes . . . but rarely. Fetid and obsequious are a few more.

I've heard awry fairly commonly in the real world.

Yeah, I hear awry often enough in spoken language.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Szymon:
Actually it's in modern time German, I think, there's the luftwaffe.

Actually the root is from Old Norse: "Lopt." The word does have a germanic origin, but it is not borrowed from modern or Middle German- which would otherwise be a good guess for such a word.

In etymology, the rule is, never assume.

Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Noemon
Member
Member # 1115

 - posted      Profile for Noemon   Email Noemon         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Askance = a-skance.
Awry = a-wry.

How do you know?
It's not really some grand, unknowable mystery, you know.

[ September 11, 2012, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]

Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
That's right! It's a grand, knowable mystery.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Szymon
Member
Member # 7103

 - posted      Profile for Szymon   Email Szymon         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I only meant it's still used in similar form.
Posts: 723 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
happymann
Member
Member # 9559

 - posted      Profile for happymann   Email happymann         Edit/Delete Post 
This looks like a job for...

ETYMOLOGY MAN!

Posts: 258 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
According to the OED:

Awry:

quote:
Pronunciation: /əˈraɪ/
Forms: ME on wry, ME on wrye, ME–15 a wrye, awrye, ME–16 a wry, 15 a wrie, awri, 15–16 awrie...
Etymology: < a prep.1 + wry n.; compare aright, awrong.

Ajar:

quote:
Pronunciation: /əˈdʒɑː(r)/
Forms: 15 on char, ? a char.
Etymology: a prep.1 + char n.1, Old English cyrr, cerr a turn. The 18th cent. at jar was on false analogy

[c1460 (1400) Tale of Beryn (1887) Prol. l. 355 The dorr shall stond char vp; put it from ȝew sofft.]
a1513 G. Douglas King Hart (1874) I. 98 The dure on char it stude.
a1522 G. Douglas in tr. Virgil Æneid (1959) vii. Prol. 129 A schot wyndo onschet a litill on char

In modern spelling:
The door shall stand jar up*; put it from you softly
The door ajar it stood
A shut-window* un-shut* a little ajar

*char up seems to simply mean "ajar"
*i.e. possibly a window that can be shut.
*i.e. open.

I had sources for these but the stupid forum software wasn't happy with something to do with html tags so I took them out but I don't think they were to blame anyway. Argh!

"A" in this case is just a preposition that, in my own words, makes the word more active and widespread. :/

An individual thing can be wry (twisted). A room can be awry. In my mind.

Also: I love the internet.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Etymology dictionaries, plus actual dictionaries. [Smile]

Bo-ring! If you didn't have to, at the very least, ask the wizened old sage that lives under the scary stairs of your local philology department, I don't want to hear it.

Does the 'skance' in a-skance refer to 'skew', or to 'sconce'?

Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
I hear most of those often enough to find them commonplace. I do work at a University though.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jon Boy
Member
Member # 4284

 - posted      Profile for Jon Boy           Edit/Delete Post 
It looks like most dictionaries actually say "origin unknown" for askance.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Does the 'skance' in a-skance refer to 'skew', or to 'sconce'?
Ooh interesting one. The OED doesn't know:

quote:
Etymology: Etymology unknown. Wedgwood suggests Italian a schiancio ‘bias, slanting, sloping or slopingly, aslope, across, overthwart’ (Baretti), where schiancio is = Old French esclanc , esclenc , gauche, left hand. Skeat compares Italian scanso < scansare , expl. by Florio, among other meanings, as ‘to go a slope, or a sconce, or a skew, to go sidelin.’ Koch suggests a formation on Old Norse á ská : see askew adv., adj., and n. Diefenbach compares Jutlandish ad-skands , West Frisian skân , schean , which he connects with Dutch schuin , schuins : see askoye adv.
It then goes on to say...

quote:
(There is a whole group of words of more or less obscure origin in ask- , containing askance , askant , askew , askie , askile , askoye , askoyne , (with which compare asklent adv., aslant adv., asquint adv.,) which are more or less closely connected in sense, and seem to have influenced one another in form. They appear mostly in the 16th or end of the 15th cent., and none of them can be certainly traced up to Old English; though they can nearly all be paralleled by words in various languages, evidence is wanting as to their actual origin and their relations to one another.)
Sounds like there was a fashion for these a-something words and a lot were coined in a short time.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2