quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If my statement doesn't work, replace it with "multiples."
And i'd be amused if anyone thought that that list is supposed to put the united states' gun homicide rate in a positive light. Whew, we only have half the effective homicide rate of Kazakhstan, why are people saying we have a problem?? Totally edging Pakistan out, guys
You could argue that those other countries have X amount of deaths despite being virtually lawless or despite having stronger firearm laws, when X isn't significantly higher (say <15).
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Rakeesh, any statistic that compares the number of gun deaths between specific nations is going to be comparing Apples with Oranges. Every nation has unique social, political, historical, and ethnic variables that will impact the results. You can't point to *any* single statistic (particularly statistics with no supporting context, how many gun deaths in the US are the result of self-defense, how many are criminals killing other criminals, how many are mass shootings, how many are police officers killing criminal) and use it as evidence to support either view of gun control, because doing so simply results in the correlation/causation fallacy. Or you can switch the statistics from gun deaths per capita to gun deaths *per gun owned* and get a much different result.
Ultimately, point-in-time statistics are useless in actually coming up with a solution to high gun violence because they have no real meaning without the appropriate context. Trends are more useful, but still inadequate.
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quote:Originally posted by Vadon: ... no amount of gun control legislation--even well enforced--will stop these tragedies from happening.
Well, let's examine this. Of course zero is difficult, you can just look at the world list of homicides by firearms and the countries with a zero in the "Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 pop" column. There aren't many places at zero, places like Hong Kong and Iceland have reached it but this is of course difficult But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.
The thing to realize is that there is a big gap between these countries and the US at 2.97/100,000. In other words, the thing to do is not to raise your hands and give up saying that the current state of affairs is inevitable, but to realize that the current state of things is a policy choice. For whatever reason, whether the constitution, resistance to a tyrannical government, whatever, Americans have chosen to live with a system that produces more firearm deaths than places like the Gaza+West Bank (2.95), Sierra Leone (2.28), or the Congo (1.56).
Zero? Reasonable people can agree that this is difficult. Lower than pretty disreputable developing countries and near-war zones? Should be reasonable for a country which "[chose] to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
quote: But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.
And the only explanation for these nations having low gun violence is Policy? Not population density (Canada, Iceland) or culture (Japan) or any other of the myriad possible reasons that gun violence might not be as common in those areas? Only policy? That's kind of an ignorant belief to hold on to, don't you think?
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Oh this reminded me I never responded to Rakeesh.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: You asked awhile ago for specific statistics. We've had that discussion before, and I'll ask the same question now that I did then: what sort of statistics would be persuasive, and what are the sorts of statistics you're willing to accept *across the board* in this matter?
That's not what I asked for.
Here's what I said:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Just because other gun rights advocates use bad arguments based on scientism and narrow interpretations of statistics doesn't mean it's okay for you to do so.
If there's a particularly compelling statistics-based argument you'd like to share, though, I'm open to reading it.
My whole point in that post is that I don't think that approaching the issue from statistics, as if they speak for themselves, is a good way to approach it. Boris elaborates on a few reasons for this above.
What's actually revealing, and potentially persuasive, is the attendant arguments and explanations that one uses with their chosen statistics.
And that's what I was asking for.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If my statement doesn't work, replace it with "multiples."
And i'd be amused if anyone thought that that list is supposed to put the united states' gun homicide rate in a positive light. Whew, we only have half the effective homicide rate of Kazakhstan, why are people saying we have a problem?? Totally edging Pakistan out, guys
You could argue that those other countries have X amount of deaths despite being virtually lawless or despite having stronger firearm laws, when X isn't significantly higher (say <15).
I'm sure that these countries are such inspiring analogues to compare ourselves against. "We have better gun homicide rates than lawless crapholes!"
As far as I can see, that's just basically a list of the earth's second and third world countries. What happens when we compare the united states versus nations that are like us in terms of being developed?
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I'm sure that these countries are such inspiring analogues to compare ourselves against. "We have better gun homicide rates than lawless crapholes!"
As far as I can see, that's just basically a list of the earth's second and third world countries. What happens when we compare the united states versus nations that are like us in terms of being developed?
Whether they're inspiring analogues wasn't the argument. The argument was, despite being lawless crapholes, their death rate isn't significantly higher. Meaning, the situation is complex and other factors are at play, making straight-across statistics basically useless in this conversation. And Boris has twice made comments related to your question.
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You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes, as opposed to every other modern nation on earth.
So, yes thank you for pointing it out? That's bad news! I wonder what the problem is. What do you think it is!
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quote: But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.
And the only explanation for these nations having low gun violence is Policy? Not population density (Canada, Iceland) or culture (Japan) or any other of the myriad possible reasons that gun violence might not be as common in those areas? Only policy? That's kind of an ignorant belief to hold on to, don't you think?
What is the gun homicide rate in Canadian cities of equivalent density to American cities? Looked at that figure yet?
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quote:Originally posted by Parkour: You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes...
At the bottom of that list is 4.2, the U.S. of A.
At the top is 91.6, Honduras.
So, I wouldn't say they are comparable.
We -are- comparable to the bottom 1/10 of that list.
Want to talk comparable, here is double and half our rate:
Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean United States 4.2 12,996 Americas Northern America Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia Israel 2.1 159+
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The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect. We had this discussion with respect to health care too. Though it could be that the us is being presumptuous in trying to call itself a first world nation and we are just a lawless craphole.
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As for statistical arguments and their relevance-I would credit that statement as more worthwhile if I stopped hearing about tyrannies and defensive gun violence-which is precisely what I've been getting at. If you're going to reject inexact comparisons, you must reject *all* of them else it's entirely self-serving.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect.
I know, I know, they are all on the same planet?
I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that every country on that list with a number lower then ours does -not- have the same gun policy. I'd bet not even half.
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quote:Originally posted by Boris: ... how many gun deaths in the US are the result of self-defense, how many are criminals killing other criminals, how many are mass shootings, how many are police officers killing criminals ...
I think this is the closest you have me convinced that Americans really do have a different culture that explains your violence.
*Well, they're just criminals being shot, criminals shooting each other, and police shooting criminals. Why would we cares about those gun deaths? A trial? What's that?*
Maybe as Stone_Wolf_ notes with his handy chart, the US (4.2) really IS culturally neighbours with war-torn areas like Yemen (4.2) and places being bombed and occupied like Palestine (4.1).
Wait, I think a wise man once had some remarks about the culture in Palestine:
quote:As you come here and you see the GDP per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000 dollars, and compare that with the GDP per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality. ... Culture makes all the difference, Romney said. And as I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation, I recognize the power of at least culture and a few other things. Among them, he cited the hand of providence.
Yeah, you guys should work on fixing this culture thing. Otherwise, that wise man might disapprove of your Palestinian-like culture.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect. We had this discussion with respect to health care too. Though it could be that the us is being presumptuous in trying to call itself a first world nation and we are just a lawless craphole.
As I find myself endlessly discussing with European friends: we are a confederacy of states, as it were. We represent highs and lows because we are, unlike most other countries in the world, systemically and culturally pluralistic in a way that is quite unique.
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quote:Originally posted by Parkour: You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes...
At the bottom of that list is 4.2, the U.S. of A.
At the top is 91.6, Honduras.
So, I wouldn't say they are comparable.
We -are- comparable to the bottom 1/10 of that list.
Want to talk comparable, here is double and half our rate:
Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean United States 4.2 12,996 Americas Northern America Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia Israel 2.1 159+
Did I miss something? I can't parse this list without a legend. What are the numbers in reference to?
Also, what is the source? World Health Org? CIA fact book?
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Country/ Shooting Homicide Per 100,000 people/ Total Shooting Homicide from Most Resent Year/ Continent/ Region
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect.
The problem with this attitude is that it presupposes that the only thing that makes the US different from every other 1st world nation is our gun laws.
But that's patently untrue. For many reasons, but let's just focus on one.
This example is especially despicable, which is the point. Because it is completely consistent with your idea that, if every other low-murder country has something in common, and that thing is different in the US, then that must be the cause of all the violence.
The US has many times the black population (in percentage, no less, not just in pure population) of any other industrialized first world nation. The closest nations are Canada and the UK, with 2.5% and approximately 2%, respectively, compared to our 12.6% as of last census.
Canada's per capita homicide rate is 1.6, and the US's is 4.2. And statistically, it's not a lie that the American black population is much more likely to be victims and perpetrators of gun violence.
So, clearly, it's just because of all our black people, right? If we got rid of them, the problem would go away.
Correlation. Is not. Causation.
The people who cite these numbers as evidence that black people are inherently more violent and ought to be deported are wrong. But they're using the same logical framework, and an uncomfortably similar moral framework, as anyone who uses similar statistics to say that our gun laws are obviously the cause of our murder rates.
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So the claim that gun control laws might have a strong link to levels of gun violence is similar in...what way, morally, to overt racism exactly?
Anyway, this might all be fine except for the part you don't say: that we can't be sure if gun control laws might have a substantial impact on gun violence, and since we can't be *sure*, we can resist all efforts to actually attempt to discover if there is a link the only real way it could ever be done, proving or disproving: by *trying it and seeing*.
Nope. Can't try it. We also can't try legalizing drugs in an effort to decrease violence and health problems because while we can look at other nations with less Prohibitionist laws and see that there might be a link, we can't *know*. So we shouldn't try.
But-again!-of course we can't look to those nations with greater guns per capita and make any sort of judgment either for why we would be safer, or something. We can't try *lowering* the number of guns because we can't *know* it would be effective.
So why on Earth is it reasonable to suggest *raising* the number of guns, then, for pity's sake? Yes, sarcasm and heavy exasperation, Dan, because of how eager Second Amendment advocates are to jam that particular camel through the eye of this needle.
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I'm surprised by how often people here are railing at the horrible things that they make up for people who aren't here to say.
Seems like they could just say these things to their imaginary friends and leave us real discussion participants out of their fantasies.
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Yes, it's a good thing indeed no one has suggested we shouldn't try to decrease the number of guns because of uncertainty, but has advocated or defended the idea of adding guns to schools without appearing to note the contradiction. That would be positively bizarre.
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Heya Dan, am I understanding you that you are saying that you disagree with deriving simplistic answers from complex, multilevel data as a principal because it's inappropriate regardless of the conclusion, or is it as someone else might have suggested, that you don't want to decrease the number of guns because you are not *sure* it will be helpful?
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: So the claim that gun control laws might have a strong link to levels of gun violence is similar in...what way, morally, to overt racism exactly?
I just tried to explain it. Which part was confusing? Ask a more specific question and I'll be happy to answer it.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Anyway, this might all be fine except for the part you don't say: that we can't be sure if gun control laws might have a substantial impact on gun violence, and since we can't be *sure*, we can resist all efforts to actually attempt to discover if there is a link the only real way it could ever be done, proving or disproving: by *trying it and seeing*.
Nope. Can't try it. We also can't try legalizing drugs in an effort to decrease violence and health problems because while we can look at other nations with less Prohibitionist laws and see that there might be a link, we can't *know*. So we shouldn't try.
But-again!-of course we can't look to those nations with greater guns per capita and make any sort of judgment either for why we would be safer, or something. We can't try *lowering* the number of guns because we can't *know* it would be effective.
So why on Earth is it reasonable to suggest *raising* the number of guns, then, for pity's sake? Yes, sarcasm and heavy exasperation, Dan, because of how eager Second Amendment advocates are to jam that particular camel through the eye of this needle.
Rakeesh, no, you're not really arguing with me at all, up there, you're just railing against unnamed conservatives or whatever.
It has nothing to do with whether or not we can know. We can't know anything, in the sense you mean here.
My point has nothing to do with uncertainty, and everything to do with the simple fact that the statistics don't make your argument for you.
The reasons I'm wary of the "Try it and see" approach to gun control, and wouldn't be nearly as wary of a "try it and see" approach to e.g. drug legalization, are twofold.
The less important, more practical, reason is that our society is very law-happy. It's easier to pass a law than it is to get rid of it. So I tend to be warier of "pass it and see" than I do of "repeal it and see."
The reason that's more important to me is similar, but slightly different. It's a moral position. Whenever possible, I'd prefer that people be free to be free to make their own choices and live their own lives. So, that's the other reason I'm going to be more sympathetic to "repeal it and see" than I would be to "criminalize it and see."
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Heya Dan, am I understanding you that you are saying that you disagree with deriving simplistic answers from complex, multilevel data as a principal because it's inappropriate regardless of the conclusion, or is it as someone else might have suggested, that you don't want to decrease the number of guns because you are not *sure* it will be helpful?
posted
I Was not attempting to argue lack of gun control as the singular problem. We have numerous problems in the us such as institutionalized poverty (which would make more sense as a reason why crimes occur more likely amongst some racial groups) which when combined with guns for all leads to more violence than in the rest of the first world. Get rid of guns for all, those numbers will drop.
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quote:Gun politics have only become a notable issue in Australia since the 1980s. Low levels of violent crime through much of the 20th century kept levels of public concern about firearms low. However, in the last two decades of the century, following several high profile multiple murders and a media campaign, the Australian government co-ordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments. Australia today has arguably some of the most restrictive firearms legislation in the world.
quote:Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
quote:The reason that's more important to me is similar, but slightly different. It's a moral position. Whenever possible, I'd prefer that people be free to be free to make their own choices and live their own lives. So, that's the other reason I'm going to be more sympathetic to "repeal it and see" than I would be to "criminalize it and see."
Well, that's a decent argument for freedom in the abstract. Tough to live one's life if you've been shot to death, though.
In any event, though, I don't appear to have misstated your position. It would take a much higher degree of certainty to increase gun control, but it takes no added or subtracted certainty at all to maintain it-and not much, it appears, to increase it. You would, in fact, have to be sure it would be helpful. Heck, you even qualified and explained *why* you would have to be sure-freedom, freedom, etc.
As for freedom, though, here's the rub: *I* would very much like the freedom of not wondering if the person next to me at the DMV, library, supermarket, or day care is carrying a gun or not. But for some baffling reason, the answer to my dilemma is 'buy a gun if you're concerned'. The solution always seems to be add more guns.
So you can claim all you like that these aren't your positions, Dan, and if you say they aren't I would like to believe it. But so long as you make arguments that fit precisely to also advance those positions, I'm not going to ignore the connection.
As for the moral similarity to racism, you explained the logical similarities...sort of. You skipped over the part where there is a moral similarity, though-in fact your argument was that it's simply similar, on moral grounds. I'm still not sure why. Because both (supposedly) involve prejudice?
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quote:Over the past 20 years, the death rate from drug overdoses has tripled, CDC data show, with prescription painkillers the reason for much of that rise. In 2008 there were 36,000 overdose deaths, almost all of which were from prescription painkillers.
Get rid of prescription drugs and we can eliminate 36,000 deaths per year.
Well, you know except for all the lives they save and suffering they prevent.
quote:Fatal Car Crashes by Year 2010 32,885 2009 30,797 2008 37,172 2007 37,435 2006 38,648 2005 39,252
Get rid of cars and we can eliminate 35,000 deaths per year.
Well, you know, except for our need to travel, and move goods.
quote:(Homicide by firearm) United States 12,996
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Get rid of guns for all, those numbers will drop.
quote:After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since.
Get rid of guns and we can eliminate 12,996 deaths per year.
Well, you know, except for rapes going up 30% and violent crime gong up 40%.
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Of course those figures are completely speculative, but the idea I'm trying to put forth is that only looking at one side of a coin, the gain side, is not looking at the full picture.
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Prescription drugs and cars are both regulated.
Rape is a difficult statistic to evaluate in context with gun violence, not as simple as the homicide by gun stat. One thing with rape, is it could be that the numbers of rapes have actually decreased but the reporting has increased so that could be a good number for all I know.
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I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.
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quote:Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Oh, dear lord. I have to stop and step back for a minute. I know we're starting to talk about the issues about correlation science and I daresay you have found one of the worst statistical liars I have seen in a long time. Who the hell are these clowns and what agenda are they selling?
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Prescription drugs and cars are both regulated.
And so are guns. And I (and others) are calling for more regulation. It is boots who is calling for all guns to be removed.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.
Because I was just using a generalized guns and cars comparison and not in anyway simply making a point that if we remove something useful yet dangerous we also loose it's use, not just its danger.
And anyhow, considering the similarities, there is a lot of fertile discussion in that topic anyway, your personal scorn aside. (Insert fertilizer joke here.)
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: ...you have found one of the worst statistical liars I have seen in a long time. Who the hell are these clowns and what agenda are they selling?
Any stats to back up this attitude, or should your contemptuousness be enough evidence that we should start lighting the effigies?
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Stone wolf, you and I probably are pretty close on this issue, though I am ok with some guns being completely outlawed (not all, but I think there are some guns currently ok that should not be legal at all). I live in gun country and most of my discussions are from fairly extreme people. My last discussion had people who claimed that the gun show loophole is just something made up by liberal press and there is no legal way to buy a gun without a full background check. Of course, I also recently learned this person, a trained scientist, is also a birther so I might be seeing a skewed view of the opposition.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.
Because I was just using a generalized guns and cars comparison and not in anyway simply making a point that if we remove something useful yet dangerous we also loose it's use, not just its danger.
Even though I'm against banning guns, the analogy doesn't work. A modern society works better without guns. It doesn't work better without cars. Arguments otherwise are extremely tenuous.
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Modern societies have the tendency to regress temporarily/permanently into less civilized places, and one should be able to be prepared for such lapses.
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I've been looking at the statistics that many gun rights advocates are using and they simply boggle my mind. Based on a survey of gun owners they claim that there are 1 million incidents a year where armed private citizens use a gun for self protection or protection of property and there are 162,000 incidents per year, where someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if the private citizen had not used a gun.
To put those numbers in perspective -- there are 1.2 million violent crimes reported annually in the US and 16 thousand homicides.
They are claiming that people use a gun to protect themselves in somewhere between 85% and 45% of all violent crimes. (It would be 85% if all cases were reported to police and 45% if none of the cases were reported to police). Even more outrageous, those statistics imply that private citizens with guns prevent 10 out of 11 homicides in the US. Even if you take "almost certainly" to mean "10% chance", it would imply 1 of every 2 attempted murders is stopped by a private citizen with a gun.
Does anyone actually find those claims even remotely plausible?
[ January 02, 2013, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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No related to which, look at the last full article I posted. It has links involved with how some of the statements pertaining to how guns prevent homicide were essentially pure invention.
quote:Modern societies have the tendency to regress temporarily/permanently into less civilized places, and one should be able to be prepared for such lapses.
posted
Samp, you call a source I link to a liar (one of the worst) and when I ask for some evidence of that, you ignore me. Then when I make a basic statement which should be obvious, you ask me for sources? Come on! I'll do it, just to illustrate my point. For the sake of brevity, I'll limit it to my life time.
quote:1980s
1980 New Mexico State Penitentiary Riot, (Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States) 1980 Arthur McDuffie riots, May 1980, (Miami, United States) 1980 Gwangju Democratization Movement, May 1980, (South Korea) 1980 St Pauls riot, April 1980, (St Pauls, Bristol, England) 1981 1981 Toronto bathhouse riots, February 1981, (Toronto, Canada) 1981 Brixton riot of 1981, (London, England) 1981 Toxteth riots (Liverpool, England) 1981 Moss Side riots (Manchester, England) 1981 Chapeltown riot Leeds, England 1981 Handsworth riots, (Birmingham, England) 1982 Washington Anti-Klan protest 1982, Nov. 1982, (Washington, D.C., United States)[15] 1982 Miami Riot, Overtown Riot, Dec. 1982, (Miami, United States)[16] 1983 Polish Pro-Solidarity Riots, May. 1, (Poland)[17] 1984 Anti-Sikh riots, (Delhi, Kanpur, India) 1984 Operation Blue Star (Amritsar, India) 1984 Aggieville Riot, (Manhattan, Kansas) 1984 Queens Street Riot, 7 December 1984. (Auckland, New Zealand) 1985 Sudanese Food Riots, Mar. 6, (Khartoum, Sudan)[citation needed] 1985 Sri Lanka Riots, Jun. 3, (Sri Lanka)[citation needed] 1985 Guadeloupe Riots, Jun. 25, (Basse-Terre, Guadeloupe)[citation needed] 1985 Drumcree riots (Portadown, Northern Ireland, July 1985) 1985 Durban Riots, August 8, (Durban, South Africa) 1985 Cape Town Riots, August 30, (Cape Town, South Africa)[citation needed] 1985 Escalante Riots and Massacre, September 15, (Escalante), (Negros Occidental) (Philippines)[citation needed] 1985 Brixton riot of 1985, September 28, (London, England) 1985 Second Handsworth riots, September 11, (Birmingham, England) 1985 Broadwater Farm Riot, Oct. 6, (London, England) 1986 Egyptian Conscription Riot, Feb. 25, (Egypt) 1986 1986 Sabah riots, Mar. 12, (Sabah, Malaysia) 1986 Battle of Ryesgade, Oct 1422 (Copenhagen, Denmark) 1987 Chapeltown riot Leeds, England 1987 Tampa Riot 1987, Feb. 1987, (Tampa, Florida, United States) 1987 Iranian pilgrim riot, (Mecca, Saudi Arabia) 1987 Atlanta Prison Riots, (Atlanta, United States) 1987 First Intifada, Israel 1988 Fremantle prison riot 1988 Latino riot, Perth Amboy, New Jersey[18] 1988 Tompkins Square Park Police Riot, August 1988 (East Village, Manhattan, New York City) 1988 Hot Biscuit Riot, Shreveport, Louisiana[19] 19881989 Nanjing Anti-African protests, (Nanjing, China) 1989 1989 riots in Argentina 1989 1989 Sukhumi riots 1989 Dewsbury riot 1989 Tampa Riot 1989, Feb. 1989, (Tampa, Florida, United States) 1989 Tibetan Anti-China Riot, Mar. 5, (Lhasa, Tibet)[citation needed] 1989 Caracas Riots of February 1989, Feb. 1989, (Caracas, Venezuela)[citation needed] 1989 Aftermath of Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, (Beijing China) 1989 Romanian Revolution of 1989, (Romania) 1989 Purple Rain Riot (South Africa) 1989 Greek Fest Riot (Virginia Beach, Virginia)
1990s 2000
1990 Poll Tax Riots, (London) 1990 Strangeways Prison Riot, (Manchester, UK), April 1 April 25 1990 Dinamo Zagreb-Red Star Belgrade riot, (Zagreb, Croatia, at the time part of Yugoslavia) 1990 Salford, (Greater Manchester, UK), July 1990 Hyderabad Riots Over 150 people killed. Communal riots occurred due to the killing of Sardar and Majid Khan[disambiguation needed].[20] 19901990 Airin Riots, (Osaka, Japan), October 2 October 5[21] 1990 Urban riots in Vaulx-en-Velin (France), October 6, 1990.[citation needed] 1991 1991 Washington, D.C. riot in D.C.'s Mount Pleasant neighborhood, May 1991, (Washington, D.C., United States) 1991 Riverport Riot, at Riverport Amphitheater during a Guns N' Roses concert, July 2 1991 Crown Heights Riot, August 1991, (Brooklyn, New York, United States) 1991 1991 Moscow August Putsch, GKChP (Russian: ГКЧП) riot, or "August Coup Attempt", 1921 August 1991, (Moscow, Soviet Union) 1991 Ely Petrol Riots in Cardiff, Wales 1992 Los Angeles riots, April 29 May 4 (Los Angeles, United States) 1992 Washington Heights Riot, July 1992, (New York, United States) 1992 Chicago Bulls Victory Riots, June (Chicago, United States)[22] 1992 Montreal, Quebec, Canada Riot after Guns N' Roses show during the Guns N' Roses/Metallica Stadium Tour. 1992 Bombay Riots and other inter-communal riots- Riots in the Indian city of Mumbai (formerly Bombay) after the demolition of Babri Mosque in Ayodhya. 1992 Riot of Rostock-Lichtenhagen, Rostock, Germany most serious xenophobic riots in Germany after World War II 1993 Russian constitutional crisis of 1993 riots, Moscow, Russia 1993 18 May Riot, Copenhagen, Denmark, May 18, 1993. 1993 Stanley Cup Riot, Montreal, Canada, June 9, 1993. 1994 Stanley Cup Riot, Vancouver, Canada, June 14, 1994. 1994 1990s uprising in Bahrain, 35 killed, 19941999. 1995 1995 Gazi Quarter riots, 23 killed, March 1995, Istanbul, Turkey 1995 Brixton riot of 1995, (London, England) 1995 Manningham Riot, June 1995, (Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK) 1995 Lansdowne Road football riot, English Neo-Nazi Hooliganism, (Lansdowne Road, Dublin, Ireland)[23] 1996 Yatala Prison Riot, 6 May 1996, (Yatala Labour Prison, Adelaide, South Australia)[24] 1996 Drumcree riots, July 1996, (throughout Northern Ireland) 1996 Parliament House Riot, 19 August 1996, (Canberra, Australia)[citation needed] 1996 Western Wall Tunnel riots, September 1996, (Jerusalem, Israel) 1996 St. Petersburg, Florida Riot 1996, Oct. 1996, (St. Petersburg, Florida, United States) 1997 Drumcree riots of July 1997, (throughout Northern Ireland) 1998 Pullman (WSU) Riot, May 1998, (Pullman, Washington)[25] 1998 Jakarta Riots of May 1998, (Jakarta, Indonesia) 1998 Drumcree riots, July 1998, (throughout Northern Ireland) 1998 Le Mirail urban riots, December 1998, (Toulouse, France) 1999 Khaitan Riot, (Kuwait) 1999 Michigan State University student riot, April 1999, (East Lansing, Michigan, United States) 1999 Iran student riots, July 1999, July 1999, Iran 1999 WTO Ministerial Conference of 1999, November, 1999 (Seattle, United States) 1999 1999 Berlin riot[citation needed] 2000 Riot at the Staples Center after Lakers win Championship, June 21, (Los Angeles) 2000 Cochabamba protests of 2000, (Cochabamba, Bolivia) 2000 October Riots, (Israel) 2000 Al-Aqsa Intifada, Israel 2000 Riots between English and Turkish football fans break out in Copenhagen, Denmark after the final of UEFA Euro 2000,[26] 2000 Chinese anti-corruption riot,[27] (Yangjiazhangzi, China) 2000 Spanish anti-immigrant riots,[28] (Almeria, Spain)
21st century This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2009) 20012009 Many of Ahmedabad's buildings were set on fire during 2002 Gujarat violence
2001 Philadelphia Mardi Gras Riots, February 2001, (Philadelphia, United States)[29] 2001 Seattle Mardi Gras Riots, February 2001, (Seattle, United States) 2001 University of Maryland student riots following team's loss in the 2001 NCAA tournament, (College Park, Maryland, United States) 2001 2001 Cincinnati Riots, April 2001, (Cincinnati, United States) 2001 Quebec City Summit of the Americas, April 2001 (Quebec, Canada) 2001 EDSA III, May 2001 (Manila, Philippines) 2001 Oldham Riots, May 2001, (Oldham, Greater Manchester, England) 2001 Gothenburg Riots, June 2001, (Gothenburg, Sweden) 2001 Harehills riot Leeds, June 2001, West Yorkshire, England 2001 Canada Day Riot, July 2001, Edmonton, Canada[30] 2001 Bradford Riot, July 2001, (Bradford, England) 2001 Genoa Group of Eight Summit protest, July 2001, (Genoa, Italy) 2001 Holy Cross dispute, Summer 2001, (Belfast, Northern Ireland) 2001 December 2001 Riots, (Buenos Aires, Argentina) 2001 Ohio State University, First Chittfest block party riot, April, (Columbus, Ohio, United States)[31] 2002 San Salvador Atenco Airport Riot, (San Salvador Atenco, Mexico) 2002 Post- Godhra Riots after the Godhra train burning, Feb 2002 (Gujarat, India) 2002 Naroda Patiya massacre, happened on 28 February, resulted in death of 97 Muslims by approximately a mob of 5000 people.[32] 2002 2002 Urso Branco prison riot,[33] (Rondτnia, Brazil) 2002 Chinese textile worker riot,[27] (Shuikou, Guangdong, China) 2002 University of Maryland students following their team's victory in the 2002 NCAA tournament, (College Park, Maryland, United States) 2002 Ohio State University post University of Michigan football game riot, November 2002, (Columbus, Ohio, United States) 2002 Ohio State University, Second Chittfest block party riot, April 21, (Columbus, Ohio, United States)[34] 2002 Guns N' Roses riot in Vancouver, Canada after their concert was cancelled. 2003 Riot in Neos Marmaras (Porto Carras, Sithonia) against the EU-Summit, June 20,[35] (Chalkidiki,Greece) 2003 Benton Harbor Riot, June 2003 (Benton Harbor, Michigan, United States) 2003 Wrocław football riot 2003, March 30, 2003, 2003 University of Minnesota campus riots after the Gophers men's hockey team won their back to back national championships 2003 G8 riots in Geneva, Switzerland, June 2003[citation needed] 2003 Maldives civil unrest, September 2003, (Malι, Maldives) 2003 Riot over bad policy during a SARS outbreak,[36] (Xiandie, China) 2003 The Exploited Montreal riot, Montreal, Canada.[37][38] October 14, 2003 2004 Redfern riots, (Sydney, Australia) 2004 HanHui riot,[39] (Henan province, China). 2004 April 5 Haredi Riot At Brooklyn 2004 Boston, Lincolnshire, Croydon,[40] and other UK towns. Fans rioted after England lost to France in their first game of the UEFA Euro 2004 group stage. 2004 VEISHEA riot, drunk Iowa State students riot, cancel 2005 VEISHEA (Ames, Iowa) 2004 Urso Branco prison riot,[33] (Rondτnia, Brazil) 2004 Chinese riot in response to a beating,[41] (Guangdong, China) 2004 Citizens in Benghu riot in response to inflating prices and poor healthcare,[42] (Anhui, China) 2004 Farmers riot when their land is taken and given to real-estate companies,[43] (Zhengzhou, China) 2004 Chinese soccer fans riot when a Japanese team wins the final,[44] (Beijing, China) 2004 Rioters attack police station December 30, 2004 [45] (Athens, Greece) 2005 Dongzhou protest,[46] (Guangdong, China) 2005 Macquarie Fields riots, February 2005, southwestern suburb of Sydney, Australia 2005 Cedar Revolution, February 2005, Lebanon[citation needed] 2005 Anti-Japanese riots, April 2005, Beijing, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, China[citation needed] 2005 Riots in response to land taken for a power plant,[47] (Shenyou, China) 2005 Riots over excessive pollution,[48] (Zhejiang, China) 2005 Perpignan ethnic violence, May 2005,[49] France) 2005 Maldives civil unrest, August 2005, (Malι, Maldives)[citation needed] 2005 Chinese worker riot,[50] July 2005, (Xizhou, China). In 2005, the government admitted to 87,000 riots and demonstrations across China.[51] 2005 Street clashes in central Athens,[52] September 2007, (Athens, Greece), 2005 2005 civil unrest in France, October 2005[citation needed] 2005 2005 Toledo Riot, October 2005, (Toledo, Ohio, United States) 2005 Anti-Muslim Riots of Mau,[53] October 2005, (Mau, Uttar Pradesh),India 2005 Mar del Plata Summit of the Americas, November 2005, (Mar del Plata, Argentina)[citation needed] 2005 2005 Cronulla riots, December 2005, (Sydney, Australia) 2005 2005 Birmingham race riots in Lozells, Birmingham, United Kingdom. 2006 Stanley Cup Western Conference Finals (Edmonton Oilers victory), May 2006, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada[54] 2006 Cartoon riots[citation needed] 2006 2006 Nuku'alofa riots, Nov. 16, (Nuku'alofa, Tonga) 2006 2006 Dublin riots, Feb. 25, Dublin, Ireland 2006 San Bernardino punk riot, March 4, San Bernardino, California 2006 2006 labor protests in France, MarchApril, Paris, France[citation needed] 2006 Riot during the European Social Forum, May 6, Athens, Greece 2006 Burj Khalifa riot, (Dubai, UAE) 2006 Hindu/Muslim Aligarh Riots, April 2006, (Aligarh, India) 2006 April 2006 Venezuela prison riot, April, (Venezuela)[55] 2006 2006 civil unrest in San Salvador Atenco, (San Salvador Atenco, Mexico)[56] 2006 Shengda Economics, Trade and Management College diploma riot [57] 2006 Riot after a hospital doesn't treat a patient [58][full citation needed], (Sichuan, China) 2006 Riot over government response to a whistleblower,[59] (Shandong, China) 2006 Riot follows after a traffic accident incites violence,[60] (Chizhou, China) 2006 Riot over a land dispute,[61] (Sanzhou, China) 2006 2006 protests in Hungary 2006 Reclaim The Streets Riot Sep 24, Copenhagen, Denmark[citation needed] 2006 Copenhagen December Riot (Nψrrebro, Copenhagen, Denmark) 2007 Anti-immigrant riots,[62] (Madrid, Spain) 2007 2007 Guinea-Bissau riot 2007 Chinese immigrants clash with riot police,[63] (Milan, Italy) 2007 Riot starts when a company takes over the bus routes and doubles the fares,[64] (Zhushan[disambiguation needed], China) 2007 Karachi Riots, (Karachi, Pakistan) 2007 Muslim-Tibetan riot,[65] (Qinghai, China) 2007 MuslimHan riot [66] (Shandong, China) 2007 Roma riots [67][unreliable source?] (Sofia, Bulgaria) 2007 Georgian anti-government protests, September December 2007 Burmese anti-government protests 2007 civil unrest in Villiers-le-Bel, France, Nov 2530[citation needed] 2007 Food riots in West Bengal 20072008 Kenyan Presidential Election Riots 2008 Striking dock workers clash with riot police at state-controlled Piraeus (OLP) and Thessaloniki (OLTH) ports
[6], Greece, Jan 11+15
2008 Protests in Serbia Riots in Belgrade on embassy's of countries recognizing the independence of Kosovo by Serbian nationalists. 2008 Political crisis in Lebanon Riots and engagements between Islamists and progressives. 2008 Tibetian unrest, Mar. 10 June. (Tibet) 20072008 Food riots in India, Peru, Morocco, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Yemen, Guinea, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Senegal.[68][69][70][71][72][73] 2008 UEFA Cup Final riots in Manchester, United Kingdom 2008 South Africa riots Attacks on foreign nationals 2008 Fishermen riots in Paris French fishermen clashed with police as they protested over rising fuel costs[74] 2008 Fishermen riots in Brussels[75] 2008 Kamagasaki G8 Riots Osaka, June 2008 Repression and Revolt, General Union 2008 2008 Guizhou riot in Guizhou, China[76] 2008 Kanmen riot in the coastal province of Zhejiang.[77] According to the Ministry of Public Security, there were 87,000 riots and protests reported in 2005 and this number increases every year.[78] 2008 2008 riot in Mongolia, following the legislative election 2008 August 2008 Montreal North Riot (Montreal, Canada) [79] 2008 Yom Kippur Arab-Jewish riots in Akko, Israel 2008 Riots throughout Greece after police shot dead a teenager.[80] Riots of 2009 (Akron, Ohio), (United States) 2008 Riots in Sweden, Riots hits the immigrant suburb Rosengard in the Swedish city Malmφ 17 dec 20 dec. 2009 Riots in Oslo, Copenhagen, London, Belfast, Toronto, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and other cities following the 20082009 IsraelGaza conflict. 2009 Rosemeadow brawl with over 100 in Rosemeadow NSW Australia 2009 Riot on Jan. 13 in Riga, Latvia, after a peaceful demonstration of people, demanding parliament (Saeima) dissolution. 2009 Icelandic riots caused by the global economic crisis, Jan. 22, Reykjavνk, Iceland (From: Mail Online, London 1/23/09)[not specific enough to verify] 2009 Anti-government Riots in Bangkok, Thailand. Protesters are demanding the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. hundreds of protesters injured. Thai Army were deployed on the streets of Bangkok and the State of Emergency was declared. 2009 Riots in Jharkhand, India ahead of government elections. 6 soldiers dead.[citation needed] 2009 Luton, United Kingdom, riot against Muslim extremists who disrupted a homecoming parade of British soldiers, May 24[citation needed] 2009 Riot in Downtown Los Angeles after Lakers win the Championship, June 14[citation needed] 2009 2009 Iranian election protests 2009 Protests against military coup in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, June 28 --? 2009 July 2009 άrόmqi riots in άrόmqi, China, July 5 --? 2009 Riots in Jerusalem after the welfare officials rescued toddler who was being starved by his abusive Ultra Orthodox mother who is a member of the small Toldos Aharon community, which does not recognized the state of Israel, municipal services were suspended to all neighborhoods where riots developed. 2009 Riots in Pakistan's central Punjab, 8 dead.[81] 2009 Riots in Birmingham, United Kingdom when far-right activists clash with anti-racism protesters and local members of the Muslim and Afro-Caribbean community on August 8, 2009.[82][83] 2009 Arab protesters clashed with Israeli security forces during riots near Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Israel.[84] 2009 Football violence before, at and after a League Cup match between West Ham United and Millwall in London at Upton Park. There were also 3 pitch invasions. 2009 Football riot in iroki Brijeg, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1 dead. 2009 Bastille Day Riots in the commune of Montreuil, France; July 9
2010s 2010
2010 Riots in Corsica between police force and supporters of the FLNC, 3 injured.[85] 2010 Prison riot in Venezuela, 8 dead.[86] 2010 Immigrants riots in Rosarno, Italy, 37 injured.[87] 2010 Riots in Nigeria between Muslim and Christian gangs, 992 dead.[88][89] 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics Riot. Small short-lived disturbance involving Black Bloc members[90] 2010 2010 Kyrgyzstani uprising, 85 dead.[91][92] 2010 Political protests in Thailand, 91 dead.[93][94][95][96] 2010 April 10 Springfest Riot, Harrisonburg, Virginia, dozens injured; 3035 arrested.[97] 2010 Riots in Indonesia, 3 dead.[98] 2010 Riots in Kyrgyzstan, 5 dead[99] 2010 Riots in Santa Cruz, California.[100] 2010 Riots in Greece, 3 killed.[101] 2010 Prison riot in Venezuela, 8 dead.[102] 2010 Riots in northeast India, 3 dead, 70 injured.[103] 2010 Riots in Kyrgyzstan between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks, 2 dead.[104] 2010 Riots in Jamaica, 73 dead.[105] 2010 Riots in Kyrgyzstan, at least 2000 dead.[106] 2010 Prison riot in Mexico, 28 dead.[107] 2010 Drake Seaport riot at least 7 injured [108] 2010 Riots in Bariloche, Argentina, 2 dead, 12 injured.[109] 2010 G20 Riots in Toronto Canada Zero dead, significant damage, 1105 arrests [110] 2010 Prison riot in Venezuela, 6 dead.[111] 2010 Riots in Indian Kashmir, at least 10 dead.[112] 2010 Riots in Yemen, 2 dead.[113] 2010 Riots in Panama, 1 dead, dozens injured.[114] 2010 Riots in Northern Ireland. Police estimate that million in damages have been caused, and over 80 police officers injured by nationalist rioters.[115] 2010 Riots in Nigeria, at least 4 killed [116] 2010 Prison riot in Quebec, Canada, 2 killed.[117] 2010 Riots in Indian Kashmir, 50 people have now been killed in seven weeks of clashes with Indian forces.[118][119] 2010 Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, 90 dead.[120][121] 2010 Prison riot in Mexico, 14 dead.[122] 2010 Prison riot in Kazakhstan, at least 2 killed, 80 injured.[123] 2010 Farmers riot in Uttar Pradesh, India, at least 2 killed.[124][125] 2010 Riots in Punjab province, Pakistan, 2 dead.[126] 2010 Riots in Mozambique, 13 killed.[127][128] 2010 Riots in Indonesia, 6 killed, 22 injured.[129] 2010 Riots in Afghanistan, 2 killed.[130] 2010 Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, 17 dead.[131] 2010 Riots in Ecuador, 3 killed, 50 injured.[132] 2010 Riots in East Kalimantan, Indonesia, 5 dead.[133] 2010 Prison Riots in Venezuela, 16 killed.[134] 2010 Belgrade anti-gay riot, 78 police officers and 17 civilians injured.[135] 2010 Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 33 killed.[136] 2010 Prison riot in Haiti, 3 killed.[137] 2010 Riots in Cross River State, Nigeria, at least 30 killed.[138] 2010 Riots in Western Sahara, 11 dead.[139] 2010 Riot in Maranhγo, Brazil, 18 dead.[140] 2010 Student riots in London, 14 injured, 35 arrested, Conservative head office damaged by protestors.[141] Goldsmiths College's UCU (lecturers union) issue statement in support of all demonstrators: "The real violence in this situation relates not to a smashed window but to the destructive impact of the cuts."[142][143] 2010 Riots in Haiti, 2 dead.[144][145] 2010 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 2 dead.[146] 2010 Riots in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, at least 25 people have been killed.[147] 2010 Riots in Cτte d'Ivoire, at least 3 killed.[148] 2010 More student riots in London. Twelve police officers were injured with six requiring hospital treatment. 43 protesters injured, and 26 arrests made. several buildings were attacked, including the Treasury, the Supreme Court and Topshop. The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall car came under attack, smashing the window of the car and covered in paint.[149] 2010 Riots in Buenos Aires, Argentina, at least 3 killed.[150] 2010 Riots in Bangladesh, at least 3 killed and dozens more have been injured.[151] 2010 Ethnic riots in Moscow, Russia, 29 injured.[152] 2010 Riots in Ivory Coast, at least 20 people have been killed.[153] 2010 Riots in the Constituciσn neighborhood, Buenos Aires, Argentina.[154] 2010 Riots in Tunisia, 1 dead and several people injured.[155]
2011
2011 Riots in Assam, Meghalaya, Northeast India, 4 dead.[156][157] 2011 Riots in Arusha, Tanzania, 2 dead and nine people injured.[158] 2011 Riots in Algeria, 2 dead and four hundred people injured in riots linked to food price increases and unemployment.[159] 2011 Riots in Tunisia, at least 219 killed.[160] 2011 Riots in Jos, Nigeria, more than 30 people dead.[161][162] U.S.A 2011 Riots in Tirana, Albania, 3 killed, 17 policemen and soldiers were injured, including three seriously, along with 22 civilians.[163] 2011 Riots in Lebanon, following the fall of Saad Hariri's government.[164] 2011 Riots in Egypt, at least 846 killed.[165] 2011 Riots in Tafawa Balewa, Nigeria, 4 killed.[166] 2011 Prison riot in Sao Luis, Brazil, 6 dead.[167] 2011 Religious riot in Banten, Indonesia, at least 6 killed.[168] 2011 Riots in Manama, Bahrain, at least 70 killed, 92 civilians, 2 security forces injured.[169][170][171] 2011 Riots in Sulaimaniya, Iraqi Kurdistan, two killed.[172] 2011 Riots in Al Hoceima, Morocco, 5 killed.[173] 2011 Riots in Libya, at least 24 people killed.[174] 2011 Riots in Iraq, at least 13 killed.[175] 2011 Riots in Yemen, 24 killed.[176][177] 2011 Riots in Tunis, Tunisia, 3 killed.[178] 2011 Miners riot in Peru, at least 2 killed.[179] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, between Muslims and Christians, at least 13 people died and 140 were injured.[180] 2011 Riot in Kissidougou, Guinea, at least 3 dead.[181] 2011 Prison riot in Tikrit, Iraq, 2 dead, 14 wounded.[182] 2011 Riots in Syria, at least 60 killed.[183][184][185] 2011 Riots in Sana'a, Yemen, 42 people had died and at least 300 were injured according to doctors.[186] 2011 Prison Riot in Hyderabad, Pakistan, 7 dead.[187] 2011 Riot in London, around 250 thousand people, initially a small protest.[188] 2011 Riots in Nigeria, at least 70 people have been killed.[189] 2011 Riots in Mazar-e Sharif and Kandahar, Afghanistan, at least 13 people have been killed.[190][191] 2011 Riots in Jessore, Bangladesh, 1 dead and at least 30 others injured.[192] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 2 killed and at least 15 wounded.[193] 2011 Prison riot in Rumieh prison, Lebanon, 2 dead.[194] 2011 Riot in Parwan province, Afghanistan, 1 killed.[195] 2011 Riots in Uganda, at least 3 killed.[196] 2011 Riots in Yemen, more than 100 people have died in two months of protests.[197] 2011 Riots in Jaitapur, Maharashtra, India, 1 killed, more than 50 injured.[198] 2011 Riots in Diyarbakir, Turkey, 1 killed.[199] 2011 Riots in Dakar, Senegal.[200] 2011 Riots in Tyre, Lebanon, 2 killed.[201] 2011 Riots in Mansa, Luapula Province, Zambia, 3 people were burned to death.[202] 2011 Riots in Nigeria, at least 500 killed in post-election rioting.[203][204] 2011 Riots in Kampala, Uganda, at least 5 dead and 100 injured.[205][206] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, between Muslims and Christians, 12 dead.[207] 2011 Riots in Hesarak District, Nangarhar province, Afghanistan, 1 killed, 3 wounded.[208] 2011 Riots on Israel's borders, at least 12 killed and dozens injured.[209][210] 2011 Riots in West Bengal, India, at least 8 people killed in post-election violence.[211] 2011 Riots in Taloqan, Takhar province, Afghanistan, at least 12 killed and 80 injured.[212][213] 2011 Riots in Tbilisi, Georgia, 2 killed, 20 injured.[214] 2011 Riots in Choucha refugee camp, Tunisia, at least 2 killed.[215] 2011 Riots in Sri Lanka, 1 killed, at least 200 wounded.[216] 2011 Riots in Greater Noida, Uttar Pradesh, India, 4 killed.[217][218] 2011 Riots in Metlaoui, Tunisia, 3 dead and 90 wounded.[219] 2011 Riots in Mogadishu, Somalia, 2 killed.[220] 2011 Riots in El Rodeo I prison, Caracas, Venezuela, 19 killed.[221] 2011 Riots in Vancouver, Canada after the Vancouver Canucks lost to the Boston Bruins in the Stanley Cup.[222] 2011 Riots in Tripoli, Lebanon, at least 4 killed and at least 48 people wounded.[223][224] 2011 Riots, three separate outbreaks in June and July, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, over 300 injured.[225][226] 2011 Riots in Huancavelica, Peru, 3 killed and more than 30 injured.[227] 2011 Riots in Guwahati, Assam, India, 2 killed and at least 30 injured.[228][229] 2011 Riots in Juliaca, Puno Region, Peru, at least 5 killed and 30 wounded.[230] 2011 Riots in Dadaab, Kenya, 2 killed and 13 injured.[231] 2011 Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 114 killed, including violence a week prior.[232][233] 2011 Riots in Ganjam, Orissa, India, at least 2 killed.[234][235] 2011 Riot in Karaganda, Kazakhstan, at least 7 killed in a prison riot.[236] 2011 Riot in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, 7 killed in a prison riot.[237] 2011 Riot in Hotan, China, 4 killed.[238] 2011 Riots in Homs, Syria, at least 30 killed in sectarian violence.[239] 2011 Riots in Sidi Bouzid, Tunisia, 1 killed.[240] 2011 Riots in Malawi, at least 18 killed.[241] 2011 Riots in Ciudad Juαrez, Mexico, 17 people killed in a prison riot.[242] 2011 Riots in Papua, Indonesia, 18 killed in rioting between rival clans.[243][244] 2011 Riots in Qalad District, Zabul province, Afghanistan, at least 4 killed.[245] 2011 Riots in Pimpri-Chinchwad, India, 3 killed.[246] 2011 Riots in London which spread to other cities in England, over a hundred injured and 5 killed.[247][248][249][250] 2011 Riots in Mogadishu, Somalia, at least 10 killed.[251] 2011 Riots in Chile, scores of demonstrators and police injured, 1 killed.[252] 2011 Riots in Hakkari province, Turkey, 1 killed.[253] 2011 Riots in Jos, Nigeria, at least 22 killed.[254] 2011 Riots in Sbeitla, Tunisia, 4 injured, 1 teenage girl killed.[255] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 3 killed and more than 1000 injured in anti-Israel protests.[256] 2011 Riots in Ambon, Indonesia, 5 dead and 80 injured in clashes between Christians and Muslims.[257][258] 2011 Riots in Paramakudi, Tamil Nadu, India, 7 killed.[259] 2011 Riots in Ujjain, India, 2 killed and 16 injured in a religious riot.[260] 2011 Riots in Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India, at least 9 killed, over a dozen injured.[261] 2011 Riots in Nablus, West Bank, 1 killed.[262] 2011 Riots in Katunitsa, Bulgaria, 2 dead, at least 6 injured in ethnic clashes.[263][264] 2011 Riots in Dakhla, Western Sahara, Morocco, 7 killed, at least 20 injured.[265] 2011 Riots in Conakry, Guinea, at least 4 killed.[266][267] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 24 killed.[268][269] 2011 Riots in Darrang district, Assam, India, 4 killed.[270] 2011 Riots in Papua, Indonesia, 1 killed, 5 injured.[271] 2011 Riots in Athens, Greece, 1 died of heart attack, 16 injured.[272] 2011 Riots in Monrovia, Liberia, at least 1 killed and several others wounded.[273] 2011 Riots in Nicaragua, at least 4 people killed in post-election violence and 46 officers have been injured.[274] 2011 Riots in Damietta, Egypt, 1 killed and at least 11 injured.[275] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 33 killed.[276] 2011 Riots in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, at least 1 dead.[277] 2011 Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 2 killed and 8 injured.[278] 2011 Riots in Zakho, Iraq, at least 30 injured.[279] 2011 Riots in Canete, Peru, at least 1 killed and 20 injured.[280] 2011 Riots in Nabi Saleh, West Bank, 1 killed.[281] 2011 Riot in Jagatsinghpur district, Orissa, India, at least 1 killed and 2 injured.[282] 2011 Riots in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, 6 killed.[283] 2011 Riots in Zhanaozen, Kazakhstan, at least 11 people killed and 86 injured.[284] 2011 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 13 people killed and hundreds injured.[285][286] 2011 Riots in Bima, West Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, at least 2 people were killed and 8 wounded.[287]
2012
2012 Riots in Uri, Indian Kashmir, India, 1 killed and 4 injured.[288] 2012 Riots in Ebonyi, Nigeria, at least 50 killed.[289] 2012 Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, several killed and 3 injured.[290] 2012 Riots in Bahrain, at least 100 killed and dozens injured within 20112012.[291] 2012 Riots in Dakar and Podor, Senegal, 3 killed.[292][293] 2012 Riots in Bangladesh, 4 killed.[294] 2012 Riots in Port Said, Egypt, at least 74 killed and at least 1000 people injured.[295][296] 2012 Riots in Cairo and Suez, Egypt, 7 dead.[297] 2012 Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, 1 killed and at least 6 injured.[298] 2012 Riots in Chilaw, Sri Lanka, 1 killed and 4 injured.[299] 2012 Riots in Apodaca, Nuevo Leσn, Mexico, 44 killed in a prison riot.[300] 2012 Riots in Rustenburg, South Africa, 2 killed.[301] 2012 Riots in Afghanistan, 23 killed.[302][303][304] 2012 Riots in Songea, Tanzania, 2 killed.[305] 2012 Riots in Aysen, Chile, 1 killed and several injured.[306] 2012 Riots in Macedonia, 2 killed and dozens wounded.[307] 2012 Riots in Puerto Maldonado, Peru, 3 killed and more than 30 injured.[308] 2012 Riots in Turkey, 1 killed.[309] 2012 Riots in Port Said, Egypt, 1 killed and 65 injured.[310] 2012 Riots in Israel, West Bank and Gaza, 1 killed and scores injured.[311] 2012 Riots in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, at least 18 killed.[312] 2012 Riots in Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan, at least 17 killed and nearly 50 injured.[313] 2012 Riot in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 25000 protesters fired upon by police using water cannons and tear gas.[314] 2012 Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 20 killed.[315] 2012 Riots in Tunis, Tunisia, 1 killed.[316] 2012 Riots in Papua Province, Indonesia, 1 killed and 4 injured.[317] 2012 Riots in Rakhine State, Myanmar, 50 killed.[318][319] 2012 Riots in Kaduna, Nigeria, more than 90 killed.[320] 2012 Riots in Celendin, Peru, at least 3 killed.[321] 2012 Riots in Potosi, Bolivia, 1 killed.[322] 2012 Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, 2 killed.[323] 2012 Riots in Delhi, India, 1 killed and more than 85 injured.[324] 2012 Riots in Linden, Guyana, at least 3 killed.[325] 2012 Riots in Mιrida state, Venezuela, at least 22 killed.[326] 2012 Riots in Montreal, due to tuition cost increase, 2500 arrests as of May 25.[327] 2012 Riots in Assam, India, at least 36 killed.[328] 2012 Riots in Anaheim, California, several injuries and 24 arrested.[329] 2012 Riots in Nyala, Sudan, 6 killed.[330] 2012 Riots in Zogota, Guinea, 5 killed.[331] 2012 Riots in Mumbai, India, 2 killed and at least 55 injured.[332] 2012 Riots in North West Province, South Africa, 9 killed.[333] 2012 Riots in North West Province, South Africa, 34 killed, 78 wounded.[334]
Australia never had a similar event *before* that one either going back nearly 100 years from what I can find. In the 1996 event, 35 people were killed. Prior to 1996, going back as far as 1928, the largest number of people killed in a mass shooting was 8. Guess how often prior to 1996 Australia had mass murder events? About 1 every *4 years* going back to 1980, before that, there was 1 in the 70s, and before that you have to go back to 1928 to a number of Aboriginal mass murders. (Edit to add: And during the time prior to any of the mass shootings in the 80s, guns were perfectly legal, so you have to ask what happened that suddenly caused people to start going on shooting sprees, which is the question everyone should be asking to begin with) So no, they've not had a similar event since enacting those laws because what happened in 1996 was a *complete* anomaly.
That said, the argument that Australia hasn't had a mass shooting since then is a lie. In 2002 at Monash University, a student opened fire on his class, killing 2 and injuring 5.
Going further, in 2000, a man set fire to a hostel he was staying at and killed 15 people, so the strict gun laws apparently don't prevent crazy people from killing lots of people if they want to.
Australia's gun laws did not prevent one mass shooting event (and they outlawed even more guns after that one), and did not prevent one mass *murder* event since being enacted in 1996. In light of those events and the fact that Australia already had a very low incidence of mass murder to begin with, it's a stretch to suggest that Australia's gun laws have actually done much at all to prevent mass shootings simply because they didn't have many there to begin with.
But here's the point that the "Take away all guns" people are forgetting: You don't view weapon ownership as a human right, primarily because it isn't something you take advantage of.
The people who have lots of guns view it as a fundamental human right. *Many* of those view it as a right that they are willing to kill *and* die to protect. So I have three questions for you:
1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own? 2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future? 3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?
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quote:Originally posted by Boris: 1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own? 2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future? 3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?
This is *fundamentally* dishonest argumentation. You take it as a given that *millions* of people would give up their lives to keep their guns, and that removing guns from society would thus require the willingness to kill millions of people. Sorry, but that is simply not an assumption you are qualified to make- nor one that anyone else here is required to accept, or even to entertain as plausible.
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quote:Originally posted by Boris: But here's the point that the "Take away all guns" people are forgetting: You don't view weapon ownership as a human right, primarily because it isn't something you take advantage of.
The people who have lots of guns view it as a fundamental human right. *Many* of those view it as a right that they are willing to kill *and* die to protect. So I have three questions for you:
1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own? 2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future? 3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?
I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my answer: I'd support a complete ban on guns (sans for military and police personnel, and exceptions for hunters/farmers, and probably even "assault weapons" stored at gun ranges where folks can go and shoot and then lock them back up when they're done). That said, I recognize what you're saying and from my end, I'm willing to compromise - not a complete ban, but at least some steps to enforce stricter regulations and maybe bans on certain weapons and large capacity clips.
What I don't get is that so many I've talked to in the last few weeks on the pro-gun/2nd amendment side don't want to budge at all. Not even a restriction on gun manufacturer advertising (I point to the Bushmaster, whose most recent campaign boiled down to "regain your man card" by buying this gun). I appreciate Stone_Wolf_ here at least being willing to come to the table. But I haven't gotten that a lot from the other side.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: This is *fundamentally* dishonest argumentation. You take it as a given that *millions* of people would give up their lives to keep their guns, and that removing guns from society would thus require the willingness to kill millions of people. Sorry, but that is simply not an assumption you are qualified to make- nor one that anyone else here is required to accept, or even to entertain as plausible.
I'm willing to accept there would be *some* violence were a complete gun ban/round up enforced.
But as my last post was pointing to - I'm willing to compromise to take some steps in the right direction. I don't see many on the other side willing to do that. You made a great post a few pages back about how the Constitution came together as a *compromise* - I wish I saw at least a popular willingness to give that a try.
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posted
Oh come on, Orincoro, do you believe *no one* is going to kill to protect their guns? With some of the gun nuts we have in this country? I don't take it as a given that Millions would give up their lives or kill officers attempting to take their guns (Note the word "possibly", I know you missed it because you read what you wanted to in what I said). I don't know how many would. but If even 1 percent of the gun owners in this country did so, you're talking at least 300,000 people (based on low estimates of gun ownership) who would ultimately end up getting killed by law enforcement in the best case scenario of them using their guns to defend what they view as a human right. If .1 percent did so, it's 30,000, which is about twice the number currently killed every year by guns.
Then you must consider the logistics of gun confiscation. As soon as one person chooses to fight law enforcement to keep their guns, law officers around the country would start taking extreme measures in *every* attempt to confiscate guns to protect officers. It wouldn't take long before you had SWAT teams storming the homes of people who have chosen to protest the gun laws just by not turning in their registered weapons because the police can't know if these particular gun owners are the type that would shoot police officers to keep their guns. And how many of those gun owners would respond to a SWAT assault on their homes by grabbing their guns and getting shot by the police? And "Oh hey, why aren't people on the left bitching about the Police State anymore?"
So no, it's not "*fundamentally* dishonest argumentation". It's reality. If you want to confiscate every gun in this country, you have to address the very real possibility that people aren't going to hand them over peacefully.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my answer: I'd support a complete ban on guns (sans for military and police personnel, and exceptions for hunters/farmers, and probably even "assault weapons" stored at gun ranges where folks can go and shoot and then lock them back up when they're done). That said, I recognize what you're saying and from my end, I'm willing to compromise - not a complete ban, but at least some steps to enforce stricter regulations and maybe bans on certain weapons and large capacity clips.
What I don't get is that so many I've talked to in the last few weeks on the pro-gun/2nd amendment side don't want to budge at all. Not even a restriction on gun manufacturer advertising (I point to the Bushmaster, whose most recent campaign boiled down to "regain your man card" by buying this gun). I appreciate Stone_Wolf_ here at least being willing to come to the table. But I haven't gotten that a lot from the other side. [/QUOTE]
Personally, I don't and probably never will own a gun. I don't trust myself to be responsible enough to properly maintain and secure one, so I don't want to have one. I wish everyone who owned guns took it as a responsibility. But responsibility isn't something you can easily legislate. Realistically you are talking massive invasions of privacy to ensure that people are being responsible with their guns.
Laws that govern storage of weapons can only ever be punitive and never preventative because you can't legally enforce such a law until something has already happened with a weapon that was not stored according to the law. That is, of course, unless you want to have massive breach of privacy issues in requiring government officials enter a home to ensure proper storage on a regular basis (because having an inspection to ensure the guns are properly stored just once doesn't mean that those guns will always be properly stored).
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