FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » A Thread For Gun Rights Arguments (Page 12)

  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   
Author Topic: A Thread For Gun Rights Arguments
capaxinfiniti
Member
Member # 12181

 - posted      Profile for capaxinfiniti           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
If my statement doesn't work, replace it with "multiples."

And i'd be amused if anyone thought that that list is supposed to put the united states' gun homicide rate in a positive light. Whew, we only have half the effective homicide rate of Kazakhstan, why are people saying we have a problem?? Totally edging Pakistan out, guys

You could argue that those other countries have X amount of deaths despite being virtually lawless or despite having stronger firearm laws, when X isn't significantly higher (say <15).
Posts: 563 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boris
Member
Member # 6935

 - posted      Profile for Boris   Email Boris         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rakeesh, any statistic that compares the number of gun deaths between specific nations is going to be comparing Apples with Oranges. Every nation has unique social, political, historical, and ethnic variables that will impact the results. You can't point to *any* single statistic (particularly statistics with no supporting context, how many gun deaths in the US are the result of self-defense, how many are criminals killing other criminals, how many are mass shootings, how many are police officers killing criminal) and use it as evidence to support either view of gun control, because doing so simply results in the correlation/causation fallacy. Or you can switch the statistics from gun deaths per capita to gun deaths *per gun owned* and get a much different result.

Ultimately, point-in-time statistics are useless in actually coming up with a solution to high gun violence because they have no real meaning without the appropriate context. Trends are more useful, but still inadequate.

Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, I remember this.

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:
Originally posted by Vadon:
... no amount of gun control legislation--even well enforced--will stop these tragedies from happening.

Well, let's examine this.
Of course zero is difficult, you can just look at the world list of homicides by firearms and the countries with a zero in the "Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 pop" column. There aren't many places at zero, places like Hong Kong and Iceland have reached it but this is of course difficult But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.

The thing to realize is that there is a big gap between these countries and the US at 2.97/100,000. In other words, the thing to do is not to raise your hands and give up saying that the current state of affairs is inevitable, but to realize that the current state of things is a policy choice. For whatever reason, whether the constitution, resistance to a tyrannical government, whatever, Americans have chosen to live with a system that produces more firearm deaths than places like the Gaza+West Bank (2.95), Sierra Leone (2.28), or the Congo (1.56).

Zero? Reasonable people can agree that this is difficult.
Lower than pretty disreputable developing countries and near-war zones? Should be reasonable for a country which "[chose] to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."


Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boris
Member
Member # 6935

 - posted      Profile for Boris   Email Boris         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.
And the only explanation for these nations having low gun violence is Policy? Not population density (Canada, Iceland) or culture (Japan) or any other of the myriad possible reasons that gun violence might not be as common in those areas? Only policy? That's kind of an ignorant belief to hold on to, don't you think?
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh this reminded me I never responded to Rakeesh.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

You asked awhile ago for specific statistics. We've had that discussion before, and I'll ask the same question now that I did then: what sort of statistics would be persuasive, and what are the sorts of statistics you're willing to accept *across the board* in this matter?

That's not what I asked for.

Here's what I said:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Just because other gun rights advocates use bad arguments based on scientism and narrow interpretations of statistics doesn't mean it's okay for you to do so.

If there's a particularly compelling statistics-based argument you'd like to share, though, I'm open to reading it.

My whole point in that post is that I don't think that approaching the issue from statistics, as if they speak for themselves, is a good way to approach it. Boris elaborates on a few reasons for this above.

What's actually revealing, and potentially persuasive, is the attendant arguments and explanations that one uses with their chosen statistics.

And that's what I was asking for.

Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
If my statement doesn't work, replace it with "multiples."

And i'd be amused if anyone thought that that list is supposed to put the united states' gun homicide rate in a positive light. Whew, we only have half the effective homicide rate of Kazakhstan, why are people saying we have a problem?? Totally edging Pakistan out, guys

You could argue that those other countries have X amount of deaths despite being virtually lawless or despite having stronger firearm laws, when X isn't significantly higher (say <15).
I'm sure that these countries are such inspiring analogues to compare ourselves against. "We have better gun homicide rates than lawless crapholes!"

As far as I can see, that's just basically a list of the earth's second and third world countries. What happens when we compare the united states versus nations that are like us in terms of being developed?

Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capaxinfiniti
Member
Member # 12181

 - posted      Profile for capaxinfiniti           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'm sure that these countries are such inspiring analogues to compare ourselves against. "We have better gun homicide rates than lawless crapholes!"

As far as I can see, that's just basically a list of the earth's second and third world countries. What happens when we compare the united states versus nations that are like us in terms of being developed?

Whether they're inspiring analogues wasn't the argument. The argument was, despite being lawless crapholes, their death rate isn't significantly higher. Meaning, the situation is complex and other factors are at play, making straight-across statistics basically useless in this conversation. And Boris has twice made comments related to your question.
Posts: 563 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Parkour
Member
Member # 12078

 - posted      Profile for Parkour           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes, as opposed to every other modern nation on earth.

So, yes thank you for pointing it out? That's bad news! I wonder what the problem is. What do you think it is!

Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Parkour
Member
Member # 12078

 - posted      Profile for Parkour           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
But you can also see many places like Japan, many places in Europe, and Canada which top out at 0.5 gun homicides per year per 100,000.
And the only explanation for these nations having low gun violence is Policy? Not population density (Canada, Iceland) or culture (Japan) or any other of the myriad possible reasons that gun violence might not be as common in those areas? Only policy? That's kind of an ignorant belief to hold on to, don't you think?
What is the gun homicide rate in Canadian cities of equivalent density to American cities? Looked at that figure yet?
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Parkour:
You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes...

At the bottom of that list is 4.2, the U.S. of A.

At the top is 91.6, Honduras.

So, I wouldn't say they are comparable.

We -are- comparable to the bottom 1/10 of that list.

Want to talk comparable, here is double and half our rate:

Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America
Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe
Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean
United States 4.2 12,996 Americas Northern America
Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia
Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia
Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia
Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe
Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa
Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia
Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia
Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe
Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa
Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America
Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia
India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia
Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia
Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America
Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia
Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia
Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe
Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia
Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa
Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia
Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe
Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia
Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia
South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia
Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa
Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe
Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia
Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia
Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia
Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia
Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia
Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe
Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia
Israel 2.1 159+

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect. We had this discussion with respect to health care too. Though it could be that the us is being presumptuous in trying to call itself a first world nation and we are just a lawless craphole.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dan,

As for statistical arguments and their relevance-I would credit that statement as more worthwhile if I stopped hearing about tyrannies and defensive gun violence-which is precisely what I've been getting at. If you're going to reject inexact comparisons, you must reject *all* of them else it's entirely self-serving.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect.

I know, I know, they are all on the same planet?

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that every country on that list with a number lower then ours does -not- have the same gun policy. I'd bet not even half.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
... how many gun deaths in the US are the result of self-defense, how many are criminals killing other criminals, how many are mass shootings, how many are police officers killing criminals ...

[Big Grin]
I think this is the closest you have me convinced that Americans really do have a different culture that explains your violence.

*Well, they're just criminals being shot, criminals shooting each other, and police shooting criminals. Why would we cares about those gun deaths? A trial? What's that?*

Maybe as Stone_Wolf_ notes with his handy chart, the US (4.2) really IS culturally neighbours with war-torn areas like Yemen (4.2) and places being bombed and occupied like Palestine (4.1).

Wait, I think a wise man once had some remarks about the culture in Palestine:

quote:
“As you come here and you see the GDP per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000 dollars, and compare that with the GDP per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality.”
...
“Culture makes all the difference,” Romney said. “And as I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation, I recognize the power of at least culture and a few other things.” Among them, he cited “the hand of providence.”

Yeah, you guys should work on fixing this culture thing. Otherwise, that wise man might disapprove of your Palestinian-like culture.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect. We had this discussion with respect to health care too. Though it could be that the us is being presumptuous in trying to call itself a first world nation and we are just a lawless craphole.

As I find myself endlessly discussing with European friends: we are a confederacy of states, as it were. We represent highs and lows because we are, unlike most other countries in the world, systemically and culturally pluralistic in a way that is quite unique.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Parkour:
You are missing the point you are unintentionally making. Despite being lawless crapholes, their gun homicide rate isn't significantly higher than ours. Which means our gun homicide rate is comparable with lawless crapholes...

At the bottom of that list is 4.2, the U.S. of A.

At the top is 91.6, Honduras.

So, I wouldn't say they are comparable.

We -are- comparable to the bottom 1/10 of that list.

Want to talk comparable, here is double and half our rate:

Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
Thailand 4.8 3,307 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Suriname 4.6 24 Americas South America
Laos 4.6 279 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Georgia 4.3 187 Europe Eastern Europe
Martinique 4.2 17 Americas Caribbean
United States 4.2 12,996 Americas Northern America
Turkmenistan 4.2 203 Asia Central Asia
Yemen 4.2 990+ Asia Western Asia
Palestine 4.1 145+ Asia Western Asia
Albania 4.0 127 Europe Southern Europe
Niger 3.8 552 Africa Western Africa
Solomon Islands 3.7 19 Oceania Melanesia
Sri Lanka 3.6 745 Asia Southern Asia
Montenegro 3.5 22 Europe Southern Europe
Djibouti 3.4 29 Africa Eastern Africa
Argentina 3.4 1,360 Americas South America
Cambodia 3.4 448 Asia South-Eastern Asia
India 3.4 40,752+ Asia Southern Asia
Turkey 3.3 2,320 Asia Western Asia
Chile 3.2 541 Americas South America
Taiwan 3.2 743 Asia Eastern Asia
Uzbekistan 3.1 831 Asia Central Asia
Latvia 3.1 70 Europe Northern Europe
Iran 3.0 2,215 Asia Southern Asia
Libya 2.9 176+ Africa Northern Africa
Nepal 2.8 818 Asia Southern Asia
Liechtenstein 2.8 1 Europe Western Europe
Fiji 2.8 23 Oceania Melanesia
Bangladesh 2.7 3,988 Asia Southern Asia
South Korea 2.6 1,251 Asia Eastern Asia
Mauritius 2.5 33 Africa Eastern Africa
Luxembourg 2.5 12 Europe Western Europe
Afghanistan 2.4 712+ Asia Southern Asia
Malaysia 2.3 604 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Syria 2.3 463+ Asia Western Asia
Azerbaijan 2.2 206 Asia Western Asia
Kuwait 2.2 59 Asia Western Asia
Lebanon 2.2 95 Asia Western Asia
Finland 2.2 118 Europe Northern Europe
Tajikistan 2.1 143 Asia Central Asia
Israel 2.1 159+

Did I miss something? I can't parse this list without a legend. What are the numbers in reference to?

Also, what is the source? World Health Org? CIA fact book?

Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, you missed the link and the headings on the page before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Country/ Shooting Homicide Per 100,000 people/ Total Shooting Homicide from Most Resent Year/ Continent/ Region

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
The problem with arguing culture is that when you have a list of numerous countries all with different culture and population densities and all are doing better than the us, you have to start wandering if the one thing they do have in common might actually have an affect.

The problem with this attitude is that it presupposes that the only thing that makes the US different from every other 1st world nation is our gun laws.

But that's patently untrue. For many reasons, but let's just focus on one.

This example is especially despicable, which is the point. Because it is completely consistent with your idea that, if every other low-murder country has something in common, and that thing is different in the US, then that must be the cause of all the violence.

The US has many times the black population (in percentage, no less, not just in pure population) of any other industrialized first world nation. The closest nations are Canada and the UK, with 2.5% and approximately 2%, respectively, compared to our 12.6% as of last census.

Canada's per capita homicide rate is 1.6, and the US's is 4.2. And statistically, it's not a lie that the American black population is much more likely to be victims and perpetrators of gun violence.

So, clearly, it's just because of all our black people, right? If we got rid of them, the problem would go away.

Correlation. Is not. Causation.

The people who cite these numbers as evidence that black people are inherently more violent and ought to be deported are wrong. But they're using the same logical framework, and an uncomfortably similar moral framework, as anyone who uses similar statistics to say that our gun laws are obviously the cause of our murder rates.

Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So the claim that gun control laws might have a strong link to levels of gun violence is similar in...what way, morally, to overt racism exactly?

Anyway, this might all be fine except for the part you don't say: that we can't be sure if gun control laws might have a substantial impact on gun violence, and since we can't be *sure*, we can resist all efforts to actually attempt to discover if there is a link the only real way it could ever be done, proving or disproving: by *trying it and seeing*.

Nope. Can't try it. We also can't try legalizing drugs in an effort to decrease violence and health problems because while we can look at other nations with less Prohibitionist laws and see that there might be a link, we can't *know*. So we shouldn't try.

But-again!-of course we can't look to those nations with greater guns per capita and make any sort of judgment either for why we would be safer, or something. We can't try *lowering* the number of guns because we can't *know* it would be effective.

So why on Earth is it reasonable to suggest *raising* the number of guns, then, for pity's sake? Yes, sarcasm and heavy exasperation, Dan, because of how eager Second Amendment advocates are to jam that particular camel through the eye of this needle.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised by how often people here are railing at the horrible things that they make up for people who aren't here to say.

Seems like they could just say these things to their imaginary friends and leave us real discussion participants out of their fantasies.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, it's a good thing indeed no one has suggested we shouldn't try to decrease the number of guns because of uncertainty, but has advocated or defended the idea of adding guns to schools without appearing to note the contradiction. That would be positively bizarre.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Heya Dan, am I understanding you that you are saying that you disagree with deriving simplistic answers from complex, multilevel data as a principal because it's inappropriate regardless of the conclusion, or is it as someone else might have suggested, that you don't want to decrease the number of guns because you are not *sure* it will be helpful?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
So the claim that gun control laws might have a strong link to levels of gun violence is similar in...what way, morally, to overt racism exactly?

I just tried to explain it. Which part was confusing? Ask a more specific question and I'll be happy to answer it.

quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Anyway, this might all be fine except for the part you don't say: that we can't be sure if gun control laws might have a substantial impact on gun violence, and since we can't be *sure*, we can resist all efforts to actually attempt to discover if there is a link the only real way it could ever be done, proving or disproving: by *trying it and seeing*.

Nope. Can't try it. We also can't try legalizing drugs in an effort to decrease violence and health problems because while we can look at other nations with less Prohibitionist laws and see that there might be a link, we can't *know*. So we shouldn't try.

But-again!-of course we can't look to those nations with greater guns per capita and make any sort of judgment either for why we would be safer, or something. We can't try *lowering* the number of guns because we can't *know* it would be effective.

So why on Earth is it reasonable to suggest *raising* the number of guns, then, for pity's sake? Yes, sarcasm and heavy exasperation, Dan, because of how eager Second Amendment advocates are to jam that particular camel through the eye of this needle.

Rakeesh, no, you're not really arguing with me at all, up there, you're just railing against unnamed conservatives or whatever.

It has nothing to do with whether or not we can know. We can't know anything, in the sense you mean here.

My point has nothing to do with uncertainty, and everything to do with the simple fact that the statistics don't make your argument for you.

The reasons I'm wary of the "Try it and see" approach to gun control, and wouldn't be nearly as wary of a "try it and see" approach to e.g. drug legalization, are twofold.

The less important, more practical, reason is that our society is very law-happy. It's easier to pass a law than it is to get rid of it. So I tend to be warier of "pass it and see" than I do of "repeal it and see."

The reason that's more important to me is similar, but slightly different. It's a moral position. Whenever possible, I'd prefer that people be free to be free to make their own choices and live their own lives. So, that's the other reason I'm going to be more sympathetic to "repeal it and see" than I would be to "criminalize it and see."

Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Heya Dan, am I understanding you that you are saying that you disagree with deriving simplistic answers from complex, multilevel data as a principal because it's inappropriate regardless of the conclusion, or is it as someone else might have suggested, that you don't want to decrease the number of guns because you are not *sure* it will be helpful?

Right.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I Was not attempting to argue lack of gun control as the singular problem. We have numerous problems in the us such as institutionalized poverty (which would make more sense as a reason why crimes occur more likely amongst some racial groups) which when combined with guns for all leads to more violence than in the rest of the first world. Get rid of guns for all, those numbers will drop.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Gun politics have only become a notable issue in Australia since the 1980s. Low levels of violent crime through much of the 20th century kept levels of public concern about firearms low. However, in the last two decades of the century, following several high profile multiple murders and a media campaign, the Australian government co-ordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments. Australia today has arguably some of the most restrictive firearms legislation in the world.
quote:
Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease;
without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.

During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia:
assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.

Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.


Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Different view on Australia.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The reason that's more important to me is similar, but slightly different. It's a moral position. Whenever possible, I'd prefer that people be free to be free to make their own choices and live their own lives. So, that's the other reason I'm going to be more sympathetic to "repeal it and see" than I would be to "criminalize it and see."
Well, that's a decent argument for freedom in the abstract. Tough to live one's life if you've been shot to death, though.

In any event, though, I don't appear to have misstated your position. It would take a much higher degree of certainty to increase gun control, but it takes no added or subtracted certainty at all to maintain it-and not much, it appears, to increase it. You would, in fact, have to be sure it would be helpful. Heck, you even qualified and explained *why* you would have to be sure-freedom, freedom, etc.

As for freedom, though, here's the rub: *I* would very much like the freedom of not wondering if the person next to me at the DMV, library, supermarket, or day care is carrying a gun or not. But for some baffling reason, the answer to my dilemma is 'buy a gun if you're concerned'. The solution always seems to be add more guns.

So you can claim all you like that these aren't your positions, Dan, and if you say they aren't I would like to believe it. But so long as you make arguments that fit precisely to also advance those positions, I'm not going to ignore the connection.

As for the moral similarity to racism, you explained the logical similarities...sort of. You skipped over the part where there is a moral similarity, though-in fact your argument was that it's simply similar, on moral grounds. I'm still not sure why. Because both (supposedly) involve prejudice?

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Different view on Australia.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

But...complex systems and drawing conclusions!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Over the past 20 years, the death rate from drug overdoses has tripled, CDC data show, with prescription painkillers the reason for much of that rise. In 2008 there were 36,000 overdose deaths, almost all of which were from prescription painkillers.
Get rid of prescription drugs and we can eliminate 36,000 deaths per year.

Well, you know except for all the lives they save and suffering they prevent.

quote:
Fatal Car Crashes by Year
2010 32,885
2009 30,797
2008 37,172
2007 37,435
2006 38,648
2005 39,252

Get rid of cars and we can eliminate 35,000 deaths per year.

Well, you know, except for our need to travel, and move goods.

quote:
(Homicide by firearm) United States 12,996
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Get rid of guns for all, those numbers will drop.

quote:
After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since.
Get rid of guns and we can eliminate 12,996 deaths per year.

Well, you know, except for rapes going up 30% and violent crime gong up 40%.

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course those figures are completely speculative, but the idea I'm trying to put forth is that only looking at one side of a coin, the gain side, is not looking at the full picture.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Prescription drugs and cars are both regulated.

Rape is a difficult statistic to evaluate in context with gun violence, not as simple as the homicide by gun stat. One thing with rape, is it could be that the numbers of rapes have actually decreased but the reporting has increased so that could be a good number for all I know.

Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.
Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease;
without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.

During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia:
assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.

Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.


Oh, dear lord. I have to stop and step back for a minute. I know we're starting to talk about the issues about correlation science™ and I daresay you have found one of the worst statistical liars I have seen in a long time. Who the hell are these clowns and what agenda are they selling?
Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Prescription drugs and cars are both regulated.

And so are guns. And I (and others) are calling for more regulation. It is boots who is calling for all guns to be removed.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.

Because I was just using a generalized guns and cars comparison and not in anyway simply making a point that if we remove something useful yet dangerous we also loose it's use, not just its danger.

And anyhow, considering the similarities, there is a lot of fertile discussion in that topic anyway, your personal scorn aside. (Insert fertilizer joke here.)

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
...you have found one of the worst statistical liars I have seen in a long time. Who the hell are these clowns and what agenda are they selling?

Any stats to back up this attitude, or should your contemptuousness be enough evidence that we should start lighting the effigies?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Stone wolf, you and I probably are pretty close on this issue, though I am ok with some guns being completely outlawed (not all, but I think there are some guns currently ok that should not be legal at all). I live in gun country and most of my discussions are from fairly extreme people. My last discussion had people who claimed that the gun show loophole is just something made up by liberal press and there is no legal way to buy a gun without a full background check. Of course, I also recently learned this person, a trained scientist, is also a birther so I might be seeing a skewed view of the opposition.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd say we are close.

Background checks for every gun purchase is just common sense, and it's not even hard with computers these days.

Which guns which are currently legal do you think should be outlawed, and why?

Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I don't know whether to be sad that we're now doing the bad guns to cars comparisons, or happy that it took us longer than usual to get to it.

Because I was just using a generalized guns and cars comparison and not in anyway simply making a point that if we remove something useful yet dangerous we also loose it's use, not just its danger.
Even though I'm against banning guns, the analogy doesn't work. A modern society works better without guns. It doesn't work better without cars. Arguments otherwise are extremely tenuous.
Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Modern societies have the tendency to regress temporarily/permanently into less civilized places, and one should be able to be prepared for such lapses.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been looking at the statistics that many gun rights advocates are using and they simply boggle my mind. Based on a survey of gun owners they claim that there are 1 million incidents a year where armed private citizens use a gun for self protection or protection of property and there are 162,000 incidents per year, where someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if the private citizen had not used a gun.

To put those numbers in perspective -- there are 1.2 million violent crimes reported annually in the US and 16 thousand homicides.

They are claiming that people use a gun to protect themselves in somewhere between 85% and 45% of all violent crimes. (It would be 85% if all cases were reported to police and 45% if none of the cases were reported to police). Even more outrageous, those statistics imply that private citizens with guns prevent 10 out of 11 homicides in the US. Even if you take "almost certainly" to mean "10% chance", it would imply 1 of every 2 attempted murders is stopped by a private citizen with a gun.

Does anyone actually find those claims even remotely plausible?

[ January 02, 2013, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No — related to which, look at the last full article I posted. It has links involved with how some of the statements pertaining to how guns prevent homicide were essentially pure invention.

quote:
Modern societies have the tendency to regress temporarily/permanently into less civilized places, and one should be able to be prepared for such lapses.
Source?
Posts: 15419 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Samp, you call a source I link to a liar (one of the worst) and when I ask for some evidence of that, you ignore me. Then when I make a basic statement which should be obvious, you ask me for sources? Come on! I'll do it, just to illustrate my point. For the sake of brevity, I'll limit it to my life time.

quote:
1980s

1980 – New Mexico State Penitentiary Riot, (Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States)
1980 – Arthur McDuffie riots, May 1980, (Miami, United States)
1980 – Gwangju Democratization Movement, May 1980, (South Korea)
1980 – St Pauls riot, April 1980, (St Pauls, Bristol, England)
1981 – 1981 Toronto bathhouse riots, February 1981, (Toronto, Canada)
1981 – Brixton riot of 1981, (London, England)
1981 – Toxteth riots (Liverpool, England)
1981 – Moss Side riots (Manchester, England)
1981 – Chapeltown riot Leeds, England
1981 – Handsworth riots, (Birmingham, England)
1982 – Washington Anti-Klan protest 1982, Nov. 1982, (Washington, D.C., United States)[15]
1982 – Miami Riot, Overtown Riot, Dec. 1982, (Miami, United States)[16]
1983 – Polish Pro-Solidarity Riots, May. 1, (Poland)[17]
1984 – Anti-Sikh riots, (Delhi, Kanpur, India)
1984 – Operation Blue Star (Amritsar, India)
1984 – Aggieville Riot, (Manhattan, Kansas)
1984 – Queens Street Riot, 7 December 1984. (Auckland, New Zealand)
1985 – Sudanese Food Riots, Mar. 6, (Khartoum, Sudan)[citation needed]
1985 – Sri Lanka Riots, Jun. 3, (Sri Lanka)[citation needed]
1985 – Guadeloupe Riots, Jun. 25, (Basse-Terre, Guadeloupe)[citation needed]
1985 – Drumcree riots (Portadown, Northern Ireland, July 1985)
1985 – Durban Riots, August 8, (Durban, South Africa)
1985 – Cape Town Riots, August 30, (Cape Town, South Africa)[citation needed]
1985 – Escalante Riots and Massacre, September 15, (Escalante), (Negros Occidental) (Philippines)[citation needed]
1985 – Brixton riot of 1985, September 28, (London, England)
1985 – Second Handsworth riots, September 11, (Birmingham, England)
1985 – Broadwater Farm Riot, Oct. 6, (London, England)
1986 – Egyptian Conscription Riot, Feb. 25, (Egypt)
1986 – 1986 Sabah riots, Mar. 12, (Sabah, Malaysia)
1986 – Battle of Ryesgade, Oct 14–22 (Copenhagen, Denmark)
1987 – Chapeltown riot Leeds, England
1987 – Tampa Riot 1987, Feb. 1987, (Tampa, Florida, United States)
1987 – Iranian pilgrim riot, (Mecca, Saudi Arabia)
1987 – Atlanta Prison Riots, (Atlanta, United States)
1987 – First Intifada, Israel
1988 – Fremantle prison riot
1988 – Latino riot, Perth Amboy, New Jersey[18]
1988 – Tompkins Square Park Police Riot, August 1988 (East Village, Manhattan, New York City)
1988 – Hot Biscuit Riot, Shreveport, Louisiana[19]
1988–1989 – Nanjing Anti-African protests, (Nanjing, China)
1989 – 1989 riots in Argentina
1989 – 1989 Sukhumi riots
1989 – Dewsbury riot
1989 – Tampa Riot 1989, Feb. 1989, (Tampa, Florida, United States)
1989 – Tibetan Anti-China Riot, Mar. 5, (Lhasa, Tibet)[citation needed]
1989 – Caracas Riots of February 1989, Feb. 1989, (Caracas, Venezuela)[citation needed]
1989 – Aftermath of Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, (Beijing China)
1989 – Romanian Revolution of 1989, (Romania)
1989 – Purple Rain Riot (South Africa)
1989 – Greek Fest Riot (Virginia Beach, Virginia)

1990s – 2000

1990 – Poll Tax Riots, (London)
1990 – Strangeways Prison Riot, (Manchester, UK), April 1 – April 25
1990 – Dinamo Zagreb-Red Star Belgrade riot, (Zagreb, Croatia, at the time part of Yugoslavia)
1990 – Salford, (Greater Manchester, UK), July
1990 – Hyderabad Riots – Over 150 people killed. Communal riots occurred due to the killing of Sardar and Majid Khan[disambiguation needed].[20]
1990–1990 Airin Riots, (Osaka, Japan), October 2 – October 5[21]
1990 – Urban riots in Vaulx-en-Velin (France), October 6, 1990.[citation needed]
1991 – 1991 Washington, D.C. riot in D.C.'s Mount Pleasant neighborhood, May 1991, (Washington, D.C., United States)
1991 – Riverport Riot, at Riverport Amphitheater during a Guns N' Roses concert, July 2
1991 – Crown Heights Riot, August 1991, (Brooklyn, New York, United States)
1991 – 1991 Moscow August Putsch, GKChP (Russian: ГКЧП) riot, or "August Coup Attempt", 19–21 August 1991, (Moscow, Soviet Union)
1991 – Ely Petrol Riots in Cardiff, Wales
1992 – Los Angeles riots, April 29 – May 4 (Los Angeles, United States)
1992 – Washington Heights Riot, July 1992, (New York, United States)
1992 – Chicago Bulls Victory Riots, June (Chicago, United States)[22]
1992 – Montreal, Quebec, Canada – Riot after Guns N' Roses show during the Guns N' Roses/Metallica Stadium Tour.
1992 – Bombay Riots and other inter-communal riots- Riots in the Indian city of Mumbai (formerly Bombay) after the demolition of Babri Mosque in Ayodhya.
1992 – Riot of Rostock-Lichtenhagen, Rostock, Germany – most serious xenophobic riots in Germany after World War II
1993 – Russian constitutional crisis of 1993 riots, Moscow, Russia
1993 – 18 May Riot, Copenhagen, Denmark, May 18, 1993.
1993 – Stanley Cup Riot, Montreal, Canada, June 9, 1993.
1994 – Stanley Cup Riot, Vancouver, Canada, June 14, 1994.
1994 – 1990s uprising in Bahrain, 35 killed, 1994–1999.
1995 – 1995 Gazi Quarter riots, 23 killed, March 1995, Istanbul, Turkey
1995 – Brixton riot of 1995, (London, England)
1995 – Manningham Riot, June 1995, (Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK)
1995 – Lansdowne Road football riot, English Neo-Nazi Hooliganism, (Lansdowne Road, Dublin, Ireland)[23]
1996 – Yatala Prison Riot, 6 May 1996, (Yatala Labour Prison, Adelaide, South Australia)[24]
1996 – Drumcree riots, July 1996, (throughout Northern Ireland)
1996 – Parliament House Riot, 19 August 1996, (Canberra, Australia)[citation needed]
1996 – Western Wall Tunnel riots, September 1996, (Jerusalem, Israel)
1996 – St. Petersburg, Florida Riot 1996, Oct. 1996, (St. Petersburg, Florida, United States)
1997 – Drumcree riots of July 1997, (throughout Northern Ireland)
1998 – Pullman (WSU) Riot, May 1998, (Pullman, Washington)[25]
1998 – Jakarta Riots of May 1998, (Jakarta, Indonesia)
1998 – Drumcree riots, July 1998, (throughout Northern Ireland)
1998 – Le Mirail urban riots, December 1998, (Toulouse, France)
1999 – Khaitan Riot, (Kuwait)
1999 – Michigan State University student riot, April 1999, (East Lansing, Michigan, United States)
1999 – Iran student riots, July 1999, July 1999, Iran
1999 – WTO Ministerial Conference of 1999, November, 1999 (Seattle, United States)
1999 – 1999 Berlin riot[citation needed]
2000 – Riot at the Staples Center after Lakers win Championship, June 21, (Los Angeles)
2000 – Cochabamba protests of 2000, (Cochabamba, Bolivia)
2000 – October Riots, (Israel)
2000 – Al-Aqsa Intifada, Israel
2000 – Riots between English and Turkish football fans break out in Copenhagen, Denmark after the final of UEFA Euro 2000,[26]
2000 – Chinese anti-corruption riot,[27] (Yangjiazhangzi, China)
2000 – Spanish anti-immigrant riots,[28] (Almeria, Spain)

21st century
This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2009)
2001–2009
Many of Ahmedabad's buildings were set on fire during 2002 Gujarat violence

2001 – Philadelphia Mardi Gras Riots, February 2001, (Philadelphia, United States)[29]
2001 – Seattle Mardi Gras Riots, February 2001, (Seattle, United States)
2001 – University of Maryland student riots following team's loss in the 2001 NCAA tournament, (College Park, Maryland, United States)
2001 – 2001 Cincinnati Riots, April 2001, (Cincinnati, United States)
2001 – Quebec City Summit of the Americas, April 2001 (Quebec, Canada)
2001 – EDSA III, May 2001 (Manila, Philippines)
2001 – Oldham Riots, May 2001, (Oldham, Greater Manchester, England)
2001 – Gothenburg Riots, June 2001, (Gothenburg, Sweden)
2001 – Harehills riot Leeds, June 2001, West Yorkshire, England
2001 – Canada Day Riot, July 2001, Edmonton, Canada[30]
2001 – Bradford Riot, July 2001, (Bradford, England)
2001 – Genoa Group of Eight Summit protest, July 2001, (Genoa, Italy)
2001 – Holy Cross dispute, Summer 2001, (Belfast, Northern Ireland)
2001 – December 2001 Riots, (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
2001 – Ohio State University, First Chittfest block party riot, April, (Columbus, Ohio, United States)[31]
2002 – San Salvador Atenco Airport Riot, (San Salvador Atenco, Mexico)
2002 – Post- Godhra Riots after the Godhra train burning, Feb 2002 (Gujarat, India)
2002 – Naroda Patiya massacre, happened on 28 February, resulted in death of 97 Muslims by approximately a mob of 5000 people.[32]
2002 – 2002 Urso Branco prison riot,[33] (Rondτnia, Brazil)
2002 – Chinese textile worker riot,[27] (Shuikou, Guangdong, China)
2002 – University of Maryland students following their team's victory in the 2002 NCAA tournament, (College Park, Maryland, United States)
2002 – Ohio State University post University of Michigan football game riot, November 2002, (Columbus, Ohio, United States)
2002 – Ohio State University, Second Chittfest block party riot, April 21, (Columbus, Ohio, United States)[34]
2002 – Guns N' Roses riot in Vancouver, Canada after their concert was cancelled.
2003 – Riot in Neos Marmaras (Porto Carras, Sithonia) against the EU-Summit, June 20,[35] (Chalkidiki,Greece)
2003 – Benton Harbor Riot, June 2003 (Benton Harbor, Michigan, United States)
2003 – Wrocław football riot 2003, March 30, 2003,
2003 – University of Minnesota campus riots after the Gophers men's hockey team won their back to back national championships
2003 – G8 riots in Geneva, Switzerland, June 2003[citation needed]
2003 – Maldives civil unrest, September 2003, (Malι, Maldives)
2003 – Riot over bad policy during a SARS outbreak,[36] (Xiandie, China)
2003 – The Exploited Montreal riot, Montreal, Canada.[37][38] October 14, 2003
2004 – Redfern riots, (Sydney, Australia)
2004 – Han–Hui riot,[39] (Henan province, China).
2004 – April 5 Haredi Riot At Brooklyn
2004 – Boston, Lincolnshire, Croydon,[40] and other UK towns. Fans rioted after England lost to France in their first game of the UEFA Euro 2004 group stage.
2004 – VEISHEA riot, drunk Iowa State students riot, cancel 2005 VEISHEA (Ames, Iowa)
2004 – Urso Branco prison riot,[33] (Rondτnia, Brazil)
2004 – Chinese riot in response to a beating,[41] (Guangdong, China)
2004 – Citizens in Benghu riot in response to inflating prices and poor healthcare,[42] (Anhui, China)
2004 – Farmers riot when their land is taken and given to real-estate companies,[43] (Zhengzhou, China)
2004 – Chinese soccer fans riot when a Japanese team wins the final,[44] (Beijing, China)
2004 – Rioters attack police station December 30, 2004 [45] (Athens, Greece)
2005 – Dongzhou protest,[46] (Guangdong, China)
2005 – Macquarie Fields riots, February 2005, southwestern suburb of Sydney, Australia
2005 – Cedar Revolution, February 2005, Lebanon[citation needed]
2005 – Anti-Japanese riots, April 2005, Beijing, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, China[citation needed]
2005 – Riots in response to land taken for a power plant,[47] (Shenyou, China)
2005 – Riots over excessive pollution,[48] (Zhejiang, China)
2005 – Perpignan ethnic violence, May 2005,[49] France)
2005 – Maldives civil unrest, August 2005, (Malι, Maldives)[citation needed]
2005 – Chinese worker riot,[50] July 2005, (Xizhou, China). In 2005, the government admitted to 87,000 riots and demonstrations across China.[51]
2005 – Street clashes in central Athens,[52] September 2007, (Athens, Greece),
2005 – 2005 civil unrest in France, October 2005[citation needed]
2005 – 2005 Toledo Riot, October 2005, (Toledo, Ohio, United States)
2005 – Anti-Muslim Riots of Mau,[53] October 2005, (Mau, Uttar Pradesh),India
2005 – Mar del Plata Summit of the Americas, November 2005, (Mar del Plata, Argentina)[citation needed]
2005 – 2005 Cronulla riots, December 2005, (Sydney, Australia)
2005 – 2005 Birmingham race riots in Lozells, Birmingham, United Kingdom.
2006 – Stanley Cup Western Conference Finals (Edmonton Oilers victory), May 2006, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada[54]
2006 – Cartoon riots[citation needed]
2006 – 2006 Nuku'alofa riots, Nov. 16, (Nuku'alofa, Tonga)
2006 – 2006 Dublin riots, Feb. 25, Dublin, Ireland
2006 – San Bernardino punk riot, March 4, San Bernardino, California
2006 – 2006 labor protests in France, March–April, Paris, France[citation needed]
2006 – Riot during the European Social Forum, May 6, Athens, Greece
2006 – Burj Khalifa riot, (Dubai, UAE)
2006 – Hindu/Muslim Aligarh Riots, April 2006, (Aligarh, India)
2006 – April 2006 Venezuela prison riot, April, (Venezuela)[55]
2006 – 2006 civil unrest in San Salvador Atenco, (San Salvador Atenco, Mexico)[56]
2006 – Shengda Economics, Trade and Management College diploma riot [57]
2006 – Riot after a hospital doesn't treat a patient [58][full citation needed], (Sichuan, China)
2006 – Riot over government response to a whistleblower,[59] (Shandong, China)
2006 – Riot follows after a traffic accident incites violence,[60] (Chizhou, China)
2006 – Riot over a land dispute,[61] (Sanzhou, China)
2006 – 2006 protests in Hungary
2006 – Reclaim The Streets Riot Sep 24, Copenhagen, Denmark[citation needed]
2006 – Copenhagen December Riot (Nψrrebro, Copenhagen, Denmark)
2007 – Anti-immigrant riots,[62] (Madrid, Spain)
2007 – 2007 – Guinea-Bissau riot
2007 – Chinese immigrants clash with riot police,[63] (Milan, Italy)
2007 – Riot starts when a company takes over the bus routes and doubles the fares,[64] (Zhushan[disambiguation needed], China)
2007 – Karachi Riots, (Karachi, Pakistan)
2007 – Muslim-Tibetan riot,[65] (Qinghai, China)
2007 – Muslim–Han riot [66] (Shandong, China)
2007 – Roma riots [67][unreliable source?] (Sofia, Bulgaria)
2007 – Georgian anti-government protests, September – December
2007 – Burmese anti-government protests
2007 civil unrest in Villiers-le-Bel, France, Nov 25–30[citation needed]
2007 – Food riots in West Bengal
2007–2008 – Kenyan Presidential Election Riots
2008 – Striking dock workers clash with riot police at state-controlled Piraeus (OLP) and Thessaloniki (OLTH) ports

[6], Greece, Jan 11+15

2008 – Protests in Serbia – Riots in Belgrade on embassy's of countries recognizing the independence of Kosovo by Serbian nationalists.
2008 – Political crisis in Lebanon – Riots and engagements between Islamists and progressives.
2008 – Tibetian unrest, Mar. 10 – June. (Tibet)
2007–2008 – Food riots in India, Peru, Morocco, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Yemen, Guinea, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Senegal.[68][69][70][71][72][73]
2008 – UEFA Cup Final riots in Manchester, United Kingdom
2008 – South Africa riots – Attacks on foreign nationals
2008 – Fishermen riots in Paris – French fishermen clashed with police as they protested over rising fuel costs[74]
2008 – Fishermen riots in Brussels[75]
2008 – Kamagasaki G8 Riots Osaka, June 2008 Repression and Revolt, General Union
2008 – 2008 Guizhou riot in Guizhou, China[76]
2008 – Kanmen riot in the coastal province of Zhejiang.[77] According to the Ministry of Public Security, there were 87,000 riots and protests reported in 2005 and this number increases every year.[78]
2008 – 2008 riot in Mongolia, following the legislative election
2008 – August 2008 Montreal North Riot (Montreal, Canada) [79]
2008 – Yom Kippur Arab-Jewish riots in Akko, Israel
2008 – Riots throughout Greece after police shot dead a teenager.[80]
Riots of 2009 (Akron, Ohio), (United States)
2008 – Riots in Sweden, Riots hits the immigrant suburb Rosengard in the Swedish city Malmφ 17 dec – 20 dec.
2009 – Riots in Oslo, Copenhagen, London, Belfast, Toronto, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and other cities following the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict.
2009 – Rosemeadow brawl with over 100 in Rosemeadow NSW Australia
2009 – Riot on Jan. 13 in Riga, Latvia, after a peaceful demonstration of people, demanding parliament (Saeima) dissolution.
2009 – Icelandic riots caused by the global economic crisis, Jan. 22, Reykjavνk, Iceland (From: Mail Online, London 1/23/09)[not specific enough to verify]
2009 – Anti-government Riots in Bangkok, Thailand. Protesters are demanding the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. hundreds of protesters injured. Thai Army were deployed on the streets of Bangkok and the State of Emergency was declared.
2009 – Riots in Jharkhand, India ahead of government elections. 6 soldiers dead.[citation needed]
2009 – Luton, United Kingdom, riot against Muslim extremists who disrupted a homecoming parade of British soldiers, May 24[citation needed]
2009 – Riot in Downtown Los Angeles after Lakers win the Championship, June 14[citation needed]
2009 – 2009 Iranian election protests
2009 – Protests against military coup in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, June 28 --?
2009 – July 2009 άrόmqi riots in άrόmqi, China, July 5 --?
2009 – Riots in Jerusalem after the welfare officials rescued toddler who was being starved by his abusive Ultra Orthodox mother who is a member of the small Toldos Aharon community, which does not recognized the state of Israel, municipal services were suspended to all neighborhoods where riots developed.
2009 – Riots in Pakistan's central Punjab, 8 dead.[81]
2009 – Riots in Birmingham, United Kingdom when far-right activists clash with anti-racism protesters and local members of the Muslim and Afro-Caribbean community on August 8, 2009.[82][83]
2009 – Arab protesters clashed with Israeli security forces during riots near Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Israel.[84]
2009 – Football violence before, at and after a League Cup match between West Ham United and Millwall in London at Upton Park. There were also 3 pitch invasions.
2009 – Football riot in Široki Brijeg, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1 dead.
2009 – Bastille Day Riots in the commune of Montreuil, France; July 9

2010s
2010

2010 – Riots in Corsica between police force and supporters of the FLNC, 3 injured.[85]
2010 – Prison riot in Venezuela, 8 dead.[86]
2010 – Immigrants riots in Rosarno, Italy, 37 injured.[87]
2010 – Riots in Nigeria between Muslim and Christian gangs, 992 dead.[88][89]
2010 – Vancouver Winter Olympics Riot. Small short-lived disturbance involving Black Bloc members[90]
2010 – 2010 Kyrgyzstani uprising, 85 dead.[91][92]
2010 – Political protests in Thailand, 91 dead.[93][94][95][96]
2010 – April 10 – Springfest Riot, Harrisonburg, Virginia, dozens injured; 30–35 arrested.[97]
2010 – Riots in Indonesia, 3 dead.[98]
2010 – Riots in Kyrgyzstan, 5 dead[99]
2010 – Riots in Santa Cruz, California.[100]
2010 – Riots in Greece, 3 killed.[101]
2010 – Prison riot in Venezuela, 8 dead.[102]
2010 – Riots in northeast India, 3 dead, 70 injured.[103]
2010 – Riots in Kyrgyzstan between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks, 2 dead.[104]
2010 – Riots in Jamaica, 73 dead.[105]
2010 – Riots in Kyrgyzstan, at least 2000 dead.[106]
2010 – Prison riot in Mexico, 28 dead.[107]
2010 – Drake Seaport riot at least 7 injured [108]
2010 – Riots in Bariloche, Argentina, 2 dead, 12 injured.[109]
2010 – G20 Riots in Toronto Canada – Zero dead, significant damage, 1105 arrests [110]
2010 – Prison riot in Venezuela, 6 dead.[111]
2010 – Riots in Indian Kashmir, at least 10 dead.[112]
2010 – Riots in Yemen, 2 dead.[113]
2010 – Riots in Panama, 1 dead, dozens injured.[114]
2010 – Riots in Northern Ireland. Police estimate that million in damages have been caused, and over 80 police officers injured by nationalist rioters.[115]
2010 – Riots in Nigeria, at least 4 killed [116]
2010 – Prison riot in Quebec, Canada, 2 killed.[117]
2010 – Riots in Indian Kashmir, 50 people have now been killed in seven weeks of clashes with Indian forces.[118][119]
2010 – Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, 90 dead.[120][121]
2010 – Prison riot in Mexico, 14 dead.[122]
2010 – Prison riot in Kazakhstan, at least 2 killed, 80 injured.[123]
2010 – Farmers riot in Uttar Pradesh, India, at least 2 killed.[124][125]
2010 – Riots in Punjab province, Pakistan, 2 dead.[126]
2010 – Riots in Mozambique, 13 killed.[127][128]
2010 – Riots in Indonesia, 6 killed, 22 injured.[129]
2010 – Riots in Afghanistan, 2 killed.[130]
2010 – Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, 17 dead.[131]
2010 – Riots in Ecuador, 3 killed, 50 injured.[132]
2010 – Riots in East Kalimantan, Indonesia, 5 dead.[133]
2010 – Prison Riots in Venezuela, 16 killed.[134]
2010 – Belgrade anti-gay riot, 78 police officers and 17 civilians injured.[135]
2010 – Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 33 killed.[136]
2010 – Prison riot in Haiti, 3 killed.[137]
2010 – Riots in Cross River State, Nigeria, at least 30 killed.[138]
2010 – Riots in Western Sahara, 11 dead.[139]
2010 – Riot in Maranhγo, Brazil, 18 dead.[140]
2010 – Student riots in London, 14 injured, 35 arrested, Conservative head office damaged by protestors.[141] Goldsmiths College's UCU (lecturers union) issue statement in support of all demonstrators: "The real violence in this situation relates not to a smashed window but to the destructive impact of the cuts."[142][143]
2010 – Riots in Haiti, 2 dead.[144][145]
2010 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 2 dead.[146]
2010 – Riots in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, at least 25 people have been killed.[147]
2010 – Riots in Cτte d'Ivoire, at least 3 killed.[148]
2010 – More student riots in London. Twelve police officers were injured with six requiring hospital treatment. 43 protesters injured, and 26 arrests made. several buildings were attacked, including the Treasury, the Supreme Court and Topshop. The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall car came under attack, smashing the window of the car and covered in paint.[149]
2010 – Riots in Buenos Aires, Argentina, at least 3 killed.[150]
2010 – Riots in Bangladesh, at least 3 killed and dozens more have been injured.[151]
2010 – Ethnic riots in Moscow, Russia, 29 injured.[152]
2010 – Riots in Ivory Coast, at least 20 people have been killed.[153]
2010 – Riots in the Constituciσn neighborhood, Buenos Aires, Argentina.[154]
2010 – Riots in Tunisia, 1 dead and several people injured.[155]

2011

2011 – Riots in Assam, Meghalaya, Northeast India, 4 dead.[156][157]
2011 – Riots in Arusha, Tanzania, 2 dead and nine people injured.[158]
2011 – Riots in Algeria, 2 dead and four hundred people injured in riots linked to food price increases and unemployment.[159]
2011 – Riots in Tunisia, at least 219 killed.[160]
2011 – Riots in Jos, Nigeria, more than 30 people dead.[161][162] U.S.A
2011 – Riots in Tirana, Albania, 3 killed, 17 policemen and soldiers were injured, including three seriously, along with 22 civilians.[163]
2011 – Riots in Lebanon, following the fall of Saad Hariri's government.[164]
2011 – Riots in Egypt, at least 846 killed.[165]
2011 – Riots in Tafawa Balewa, Nigeria, 4 killed.[166]
2011 – Prison riot in Sao Luis, Brazil, 6 dead.[167]
2011 – Religious riot in Banten, Indonesia, at least 6 killed.[168]
2011 – Riots in Manama, Bahrain, at least 70 killed, 92 civilians, 2 security forces injured.[169][170][171]
2011 – Riots in Sulaimaniya, Iraqi Kurdistan, two killed.[172]
2011 – Riots in Al Hoceima, Morocco, 5 killed.[173]
2011 – Riots in Libya, at least 24 people killed.[174]
2011 – Riots in Iraq, at least 13 killed.[175]
2011 – Riots in Yemen, 24 killed.[176][177]
2011 – Riots in Tunis, Tunisia, 3 killed.[178]
2011 – Miners riot in Peru, at least 2 killed.[179]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, between Muslims and Christians, at least 13 people died and 140 were injured.[180]
2011 – Riot in Kissidougou, Guinea, at least 3 dead.[181]
2011 – Prison riot in Tikrit, Iraq, 2 dead, 14 wounded.[182]
2011 – Riots in Syria, at least 60 killed.[183][184][185]
2011 – Riots in Sana'a, Yemen, 42 people had died and at least 300 were injured according to doctors.[186]
2011 – Prison Riot in Hyderabad, Pakistan, 7 dead.[187]
2011 – Riot in London, around 250 thousand people, initially a small protest.[188]
2011 – Riots in Nigeria, at least 70 people have been killed.[189]
2011 – Riots in Mazar-e Sharif and Kandahar, Afghanistan, at least 13 people have been killed.[190][191]
2011 – Riots in Jessore, Bangladesh, 1 dead and at least 30 others injured.[192]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 2 killed and at least 15 wounded.[193]
2011 – Prison riot in Rumieh prison, Lebanon, 2 dead.[194]
2011 – Riot in Parwan province, Afghanistan, 1 killed.[195]
2011 – Riots in Uganda, at least 3 killed.[196]
2011 – Riots in Yemen, more than 100 people have died in two months of protests.[197]
2011 – Riots in Jaitapur, Maharashtra, India, 1 killed, more than 50 injured.[198]
2011 – Riots in Diyarbakir, Turkey, 1 killed.[199]
2011 – Riots in Dakar, Senegal.[200]
2011 – Riots in Tyre, Lebanon, 2 killed.[201]
2011 – Riots in Mansa, Luapula Province, Zambia, 3 people were burned to death.[202]
2011 – Riots in Nigeria, at least 500 killed in post-election rioting.[203][204]
2011 – Riots in Kampala, Uganda, at least 5 dead and 100 injured.[205][206]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, between Muslims and Christians, 12 dead.[207]
2011 – Riots in Hesarak District, Nangarhar province, Afghanistan, 1 killed, 3 wounded.[208]
2011 – Riots on Israel's borders, at least 12 killed and dozens injured.[209][210]
2011 – Riots in West Bengal, India, at least 8 people killed in post-election violence.[211]
2011 – Riots in Taloqan, Takhar province, Afghanistan, at least 12 killed and 80 injured.[212][213]
2011 – Riots in Tbilisi, Georgia, 2 killed, 20 injured.[214]
2011 – Riots in Choucha refugee camp, Tunisia, at least 2 killed.[215]
2011 – Riots in Sri Lanka, 1 killed, at least 200 wounded.[216]
2011 – Riots in Greater Noida, Uttar Pradesh, India, 4 killed.[217][218]
2011 – Riots in Metlaoui, Tunisia, 3 dead and 90 wounded.[219]
2011 – Riots in Mogadishu, Somalia, 2 killed.[220]
2011 – Riots in El Rodeo I prison, Caracas, Venezuela, 19 killed.[221]
2011 – Riots in Vancouver, Canada after the Vancouver Canucks lost to the Boston Bruins in the Stanley Cup.[222]
2011 – Riots in Tripoli, Lebanon, at least 4 killed and at least 48 people wounded.[223][224]
2011 – Riots, three separate outbreaks in June and July, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, over 300 injured.[225][226]
2011 – Riots in Huancavelica, Peru, 3 killed and more than 30 injured.[227]
2011 – Riots in Guwahati, Assam, India, 2 killed and at least 30 injured.[228][229]
2011 – Riots in Juliaca, Puno Region, Peru, at least 5 killed and 30 wounded.[230]
2011 – Riots in Dadaab, Kenya, 2 killed and 13 injured.[231]
2011 – Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 114 killed, including violence a week prior.[232][233]
2011 – Riots in Ganjam, Orissa, India, at least 2 killed.[234][235]
2011 – Riot in Karaganda, Kazakhstan, at least 7 killed in a prison riot.[236]
2011 – Riot in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, 7 killed in a prison riot.[237]
2011 – Riot in Hotan, China, 4 killed.[238]
2011 – Riots in Homs, Syria, at least 30 killed in sectarian violence.[239]
2011 – Riots in Sidi Bouzid, Tunisia, 1 killed.[240]
2011 – Riots in Malawi, at least 18 killed.[241]
2011 – Riots in Ciudad Juαrez, Mexico, 17 people killed in a prison riot.[242]
2011 – Riots in Papua, Indonesia, 18 killed in rioting between rival clans.[243][244]
2011 – Riots in Qalad District, Zabul province, Afghanistan, at least 4 killed.[245]
2011 – Riots in Pimpri-Chinchwad, India, 3 killed.[246]
2011 – Riots in London which spread to other cities in England, over a hundred injured and 5 killed.[247][248][249][250]
2011 – Riots in Mogadishu, Somalia, at least 10 killed.[251]
2011 – Riots in Chile, scores of demonstrators and police injured, 1 killed.[252]
2011 – Riots in Hakkari province, Turkey, 1 killed.[253]
2011 – Riots in Jos, Nigeria, at least 22 killed.[254]
2011 – Riots in Sbeitla, Tunisia, 4 injured, 1 teenage girl killed.[255]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 3 killed and more than 1000 injured in anti-Israel protests.[256]
2011 – Riots in Ambon, Indonesia, 5 dead and 80 injured in clashes between Christians and Muslims.[257][258]
2011 – Riots in Paramakudi, Tamil Nadu, India, 7 killed.[259]
2011 – Riots in Ujjain, India, 2 killed and 16 injured in a religious riot.[260]
2011 – Riots in Bharatpur, Rajasthan, India, at least 9 killed, over a dozen injured.[261]
2011 – Riots in Nablus, West Bank, 1 killed.[262]
2011 – Riots in Katunitsa, Bulgaria, 2 dead, at least 6 injured in ethnic clashes.[263][264]
2011 – Riots in Dakhla, Western Sahara, Morocco, 7 killed, at least 20 injured.[265]
2011 – Riots in Conakry, Guinea, at least 4 killed.[266][267]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 24 killed.[268][269]
2011 – Riots in Darrang district, Assam, India, 4 killed.[270]
2011 – Riots in Papua, Indonesia, 1 killed, 5 injured.[271]
2011 – Riots in Athens, Greece, 1 died of heart attack, 16 injured.[272]
2011 – Riots in Monrovia, Liberia, at least 1 killed and several others wounded.[273]
2011 – Riots in Nicaragua, at least 4 people killed in post-election violence and 46 officers have been injured.[274]
2011 – Riots in Damietta, Egypt, 1 killed and at least 11 injured.[275]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, 33 killed.[276]
2011 – Riots in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, at least 1 dead.[277]
2011 – Riots in Karachi, Pakistan, at least 2 killed and 8 injured.[278]
2011 – Riots in Zakho, Iraq, at least 30 injured.[279]
2011 – Riots in Canete, Peru, at least 1 killed and 20 injured.[280]
2011 – Riots in Nabi Saleh, West Bank, 1 killed.[281]
2011 – Riot in Jagatsinghpur district, Orissa, India, at least 1 killed and 2 injured.[282]
2011 – Riots in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, 6 killed.[283]
2011 – Riots in Zhanaozen, Kazakhstan, at least 11 people killed and 86 injured.[284]
2011 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 13 people killed and hundreds injured.[285][286]
2011 – Riots in Bima, West Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, at least 2 people were killed and 8 wounded.[287]

2012

2012 – Riots in Uri, Indian Kashmir, India, 1 killed and 4 injured.[288]
2012 – Riots in Ebonyi, Nigeria, at least 50 killed.[289]
2012 – Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, several killed and 3 injured.[290]
2012 – Riots in Bahrain, at least 100 killed and dozens injured within 2011–2012.[291]
2012 – Riots in Dakar and Podor, Senegal, 3 killed.[292][293]
2012 – Riots in Bangladesh, 4 killed.[294]
2012 – Riots in Port Said, Egypt, at least 74 killed and at least 1000 people injured.[295][296]
2012 – Riots in Cairo and Suez, Egypt, 7 dead.[297]
2012 – Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, 1 killed and at least 6 injured.[298]
2012 – Riots in Chilaw, Sri Lanka, 1 killed and 4 injured.[299]
2012 – Riots in Apodaca, Nuevo Leσn, Mexico, 44 killed in a prison riot.[300]
2012 – Riots in Rustenburg, South Africa, 2 killed.[301]
2012 – Riots in Afghanistan, 23 killed.[302][303][304]
2012 – Riots in Songea, Tanzania, 2 killed.[305]
2012 – Riots in Aysen, Chile, 1 killed and several injured.[306]
2012 – Riots in Macedonia, 2 killed and dozens wounded.[307]
2012 – Riots in Puerto Maldonado, Peru, 3 killed and more than 30 injured.[308]
2012 – Riots in Turkey, 1 killed.[309]
2012 – Riots in Port Said, Egypt, 1 killed and 65 injured.[310]
2012 – Riots in Israel, West Bank and Gaza, 1 killed and scores injured.[311]
2012 – Riots in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, at least 18 killed.[312]
2012 – Riots in Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan, at least 17 killed and nearly 50 injured.[313]
2012 – Riot in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 25000 protesters fired upon by police using water cannons and tear gas.[314]
2012 – Riots in Cairo, Egypt, at least 20 killed.[315]
2012 – Riots in Tunis, Tunisia, 1 killed.[316]
2012 – Riots in Papua Province, Indonesia, 1 killed and 4 injured.[317]
2012 – Riots in Rakhine State, Myanmar, 50 killed.[318][319]
2012 – Riots in Kaduna, Nigeria, more than 90 killed.[320]
2012 – Riots in Celendin, Peru, at least 3 killed.[321]
2012 – Riots in Potosi, Bolivia, 1 killed.[322]
2012 – Riots in Qatif, Saudi Arabia, 2 killed.[323]
2012 – Riots in Delhi, India, 1 killed and more than 85 injured.[324]
2012 – Riots in Linden, Guyana, at least 3 killed.[325]
2012 – Riots in Mιrida state, Venezuela, at least 22 killed.[326]
2012 – Riots in Montreal, due to tuition cost increase, 2500 arrests as of May 25.[327]
2012 – Riots in Assam, India, at least 36 killed.[328]
2012 – Riots in Anaheim, California, several injuries and 24 arrested.[329]
2012 – Riots in Nyala, Sudan, 6 killed.[330]
2012 – Riots in Zogota, Guinea, 5 killed.[331]
2012 – Riots in Mumbai, India, 2 killed and at least 55 injured.[332]
2012 – Riots in North West Province, South Africa, 9 killed.[333]
2012 – Riots in North West Province, South Africa, 34 killed, 78 wounded.[334]


Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boris
Member
Member # 6935

 - posted      Profile for Boris   Email Boris         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Different view on Australia.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

Australia never had a similar event *before* that one either going back nearly 100 years from what I can find. In the 1996 event, 35 people were killed. Prior to 1996, going back as far as 1928, the largest number of people killed in a mass shooting was 8. Guess how often prior to 1996 Australia had mass murder events? About 1 every *4 years* going back to 1980, before that, there was 1 in the 70s, and before that you have to go back to 1928 to a number of Aboriginal mass murders. (Edit to add: And during the time prior to any of the mass shootings in the 80s, guns were perfectly legal, so you have to ask what happened that suddenly caused people to start going on shooting sprees, which is the question everyone should be asking to begin with) So no, they've not had a similar event since enacting those laws because what happened in 1996 was a *complete* anomaly.

That said, the argument that Australia hasn't had a mass shooting since then is a lie. In 2002 at Monash University, a student opened fire on his class, killing 2 and injuring 5.

Going further, in 2000, a man set fire to a hostel he was staying at and killed 15 people, so the strict gun laws apparently don't prevent crazy people from killing lots of people if they want to.

Australia's gun laws did not prevent one mass shooting event (and they outlawed even more guns after that one), and did not prevent one mass *murder* event since being enacted in 1996. In light of those events and the fact that Australia already had a very low incidence of mass murder to begin with, it's a stretch to suggest that Australia's gun laws have actually done much at all to prevent mass shootings simply because they didn't have many there to begin with.

But here's the point that the "Take away all guns" people are forgetting: You don't view weapon ownership as a human right, primarily because it isn't something you take advantage of.

The people who have lots of guns view it as a fundamental human right. *Many* of those view it as a right that they are willing to kill *and* die to protect. So I have three questions for you:

1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own?
2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future?
3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?

Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:

1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own?
2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future?
3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?

This is *fundamentally* dishonest argumentation. You take it as a given that *millions* of people would give up their lives to keep their guns, and that removing guns from society would thus require the willingness to kill millions of people. Sorry, but that is simply not an assumption you are qualified to make- nor one that anyone else here is required to accept, or even to entertain as plausible.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Godric 2.0
Member
Member # 11443

 - posted      Profile for Godric 2.0   Email Godric 2.0         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:

But here's the point that the "Take away all guns" people are forgetting: You don't view weapon ownership as a human right, primarily because it isn't something you take advantage of.

The people who have lots of guns view it as a fundamental human right. *Many* of those view it as a right that they are willing to kill *and* die to protect. So I have three questions for you:

1. Are you truly willing to sacrifice the lives of many of the police and federal officers that would have to confiscate the guns those people own?
2. Are you truly willing to ensure that the people who don't agree with you are killed, possibly by the millions, in order to slightly decrease potential occurrences of mass shootings in the future?
3. Why don't you feel like a complete hypocrite for answering yes to either of the first two questions?

I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my answer: I'd support a complete ban on guns (sans for military and police personnel, and exceptions for hunters/farmers, and probably even "assault weapons" stored at gun ranges where folks can go and shoot and then lock them back up when they're done). That said, I recognize what you're saying and from my end, I'm willing to compromise - not a complete ban, but at least some steps to enforce stricter regulations and maybe bans on certain weapons and large capacity clips.

What I don't get is that so many I've talked to in the last few weeks on the pro-gun/2nd amendment side don't want to budge at all. Not even a restriction on gun manufacturer advertising (I point to the Bushmaster, whose most recent campaign boiled down to "regain your man card" by buying this gun). I appreciate Stone_Wolf_ here at least being willing to come to the table. But I haven't gotten that a lot from the other side.

Posts: 382 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Godric 2.0
Member
Member # 11443

 - posted      Profile for Godric 2.0   Email Godric 2.0         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
This is *fundamentally* dishonest argumentation. You take it as a given that *millions* of people would give up their lives to keep their guns, and that removing guns from society would thus require the willingness to kill millions of people. Sorry, but that is simply not an assumption you are qualified to make- nor one that anyone else here is required to accept, or even to entertain as plausible.

I'm willing to accept there would be *some* violence were a complete gun ban/round up enforced.

But as my last post was pointing to - I'm willing to compromise to take some steps in the right direction. I don't see many on the other side willing to do that. You made a great post a few pages back about how the Constitution came together as a *compromise* - I wish I saw at least a popular willingness to give that a try.

Posts: 382 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boris
Member
Member # 6935

 - posted      Profile for Boris   Email Boris         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh come on, Orincoro, do you believe *no one* is going to kill to protect their guns? With some of the gun nuts we have in this country? I don't take it as a given that Millions would give up their lives or kill officers attempting to take their guns (Note the word "possibly", I know you missed it because you read what you wanted to in what I said). I don't know how many would. but If even 1 percent of the gun owners in this country did so, you're talking at least 300,000 people (based on low estimates of gun ownership) who would ultimately end up getting killed by law enforcement in the best case scenario of them using their guns to defend what they view as a human right. If .1 percent did so, it's 30,000, which is about twice the number currently killed every year by guns.

Then you must consider the logistics of gun confiscation. As soon as one person chooses to fight law enforcement to keep their guns, law officers around the country would start taking extreme measures in *every* attempt to confiscate guns to protect officers. It wouldn't take long before you had SWAT teams storming the homes of people who have chosen to protest the gun laws just by not turning in their registered weapons because the police can't know if these particular gun owners are the type that would shoot police officers to keep their guns. And how many of those gun owners would respond to a SWAT assault on their homes by grabbing their guns and getting shot by the police? And "Oh hey, why aren't people on the left bitching about the Police State anymore?"

So no, it's not "*fundamentally* dishonest argumentation". It's reality. If you want to confiscate every gun in this country, you have to address the very real possibility that people aren't going to hand them over peacefully.

Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boris
Member
Member # 6935

 - posted      Profile for Boris   Email Boris         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Godric 2.0:

I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my answer: I'd support a complete ban on guns (sans for military and police personnel, and exceptions for hunters/farmers, and probably even "assault weapons" stored at gun ranges where folks can go and shoot and then lock them back up when they're done). That said, I recognize what you're saying and from my end, I'm willing to compromise - not a complete ban, but at least some steps to enforce stricter regulations and maybe bans on certain weapons and large capacity clips.

What I don't get is that so many I've talked to in the last few weeks on the pro-gun/2nd amendment side don't want to budge at all. Not even a restriction on gun manufacturer advertising (I point to the Bushmaster, whose most recent campaign boiled down to "regain your man card" by buying this gun). I appreciate Stone_Wolf_ here at least being willing to come to the table. But I haven't gotten that a lot from the other side.
[/QUOTE]

Personally, I don't and probably never will own a gun. I don't trust myself to be responsible enough to properly maintain and secure one, so I don't want to have one. I wish everyone who owned guns took it as a responsibility. But responsibility isn't something you can easily legislate. Realistically you are talking massive invasions of privacy to ensure that people are being responsible with their guns.

Laws that govern storage of weapons can only ever be punitive and never preventative because you can't legally enforce such a law until something has already happened with a weapon that was not stored according to the law. That is, of course, unless you want to have massive breach of privacy issues in requiring government officials enter a home to ensure proper storage on a regular basis (because having an inspection to ensure the guns are properly stored just once doesn't mean that those guns will always be properly stored).

Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 14 pages: 1  2  3  ...  9  10  11  12  13  14   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2