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Author Topic: I wrote a(nother) song :)
rollainm
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Not my first, but definitely my first really fleshed out attempt. Give it a listen if you like, and I'd really love some input/constructive criticism from anyone willing to give it. It's called "If You Let Me."

Full disclosure here, I make no claim of actual talent. This is just a hobby that I enjoy and am working to improve my skills at, but I fully realize I'm not exactly going to make it big. This is purely for my own enjoyment.

That said, a couple of my own observations:
1. Vocally I know I have much to improve on. Consistency really is my issue - with pitch, style, breath control, etc. It's something I'm actively working on, and I think I've made noticeable improvements over the past couple years, but any advice on this would be helpful and welcome.

2. Lyrics: I had this idea of the rhyming scheme going from nonexistent/subtle in the verses to something more blatant in the chorus. I thought it would add to emotional build throughout the song. Did I succeed in this or were the transitions too jarring?

3. Chord progressions: In all honesty, I'm not very strong in music theory. I've got some basic knowledge, but I really just went with something I thought sounded good. Not so sure if the progressions I went with were very "correct" academically. The I/iiisus4 (is that even right?) in the second chord of the main progression, for instance - I just thought it sounded cool so I went with it, but any advice here would be great. Just don't get crazy in depth with the theory or you might lose me.

4. Structure: I kinda feel like I needed a clear bridge, but the song was already going on 4 minutes. What do you think?

Any other comments or suggestions are welcome on any aspect of the song you feel compelled to voice your opinion on. Oh, and thanks for listening [Smile]

-----
Lyrics:

Consumed by white florescent light
I spin this web of barely tangent thoughts

Held together by a single thread
It starts to slip
But my grip is tight

But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down

If I could get off the ground

Well I could move these stars
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me
If you let me

No one should climb this mountain alone
Don't let the scars pull you down

This fear I know all too well
I've been the fire
I've been the bridge

But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down

If I could just reach somehow

Well I could change our stars
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me
If you let me

But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down

Wish I could see through these clouds

Well I could catch your star
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me

Oh, you can touch me now
Just let it all come crashing down

Well I can see it now

'Cause I could be your star
And we could make it somehow
If you let me
If you let me

[ June 13, 2013, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: rollainm ]

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RivalOfTheRose
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Hey, great job! My favorite part was the lyrics. I wouldn't worry about being academically correct.... if it sounds cool, who cares? One way to possibly get more emotion out of it, is play the piano part in different octaves during different sections. For instance, take the second verse up an octave, or maybe the parts when you aren't singing. Would add to the whole "take the listener on a journey" aspect. But cool vibe overall, great job! I listened to your other originals too. You make a nice mellow atmosphere, especially in the time lapse vid.
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advice for robots
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Great song! I enjoyed it. I think your voice sounds pretty good already. You did a good job writing a song you could sing well.

I especially like the chorus and how you handled it in the melody. I'd say the verses tend a little toward the melodramatic with imagery that's a bit vague. It would be good to have something more concrete come crashing down when touched.

I wouldn't worry too much about chord progressions in a pop song. Save the complex, theory-laden progressions for classical or jazz. You can do a simple progression that sounds good to you and then dress it up with a good hook and interesting instrumentation and rhythm. I thought your progression was just fine and liked the flavor of the III chord.

You could definitely spice up the piano part. I might even start with less note density so you have room to add some in for flavor. IMO you don't need to fill every beat with a note, even when you're just doing piano and voice.

But good job!

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DustinDopps
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I like it quite a bit. It sounds like a "real" song so you've done good. Don't let thoughts about Theory and Chord Progression and the rest of it hamper you. Doing what you thinks sounds good is the right move, IMO.

My only two criticisms would be these: 1) Your pitch is good, but the tone sounds a bit nasal or back-of-the-throat. It's not a huge deal and it doesn't kill the song in any way, but a cleaner sound would improve things. 2) I would prefer a bit more variety in the notes of the verses. When you sang "I've been the bridge" I expected the notes to swell upward and lead into the chorus again, but they sounded the same as verse 1. Don't go nutty and do runs like on American Idol, just add a note or two of variety as the song progresses.

But like I said: I enjoyed it quite a bit. Thanks for sharing!

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rollainm
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Thanks a lot for the feedback guys! And noted, I won't worry about the specifics of the chord progressions. [Smile]

Rival,
Great idea on playing with the octaves. The second to last chorus especially would benefit from that a lot, I think.

advice,
Your suggestion on the piano, starting simple so I have room to build, is actually something I've been struggling with in general, even when I cover a song. I tend to want the instrumental to drive the melody much more than is necessary, and I kinda get lost in that sometimes. I'm working on it. As for the verses, starting from something more personal and expanding to something more universally relatable was the intent, but perhaps the imagery is a bit too vague.

Dustin,
1. I'm well aware of the nasal tone - workin on that [Smile] (in fact, if you listen to my first couple of uploads, you'll hear just how much worse it used to be).
2. I absolutely agree. I did toy with the second verse a little and couldn't find a variation I liked, got distracted and never went back to it. Probably should have.

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Aros
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You're singing too soft and "breathy". You need to sing louder, from the diaphram, and bring the sound down when you mix it. You kind of have a seventies Bowie whisper thing going on. But without any of the affectation. Which is fine, if you punch it up a bit. As is, however, at times your words almost seem to disappear in a mumble.
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rollainm
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Thanks for the input, Aros. Is my diction really that unclear in spots? I actually rather like the soft and breathy style - it's kinda my thing. I'm no professional singer, though, so yeah, individual affectations could be probably use some work. I have to respectfully disagree that my voice is devoid of them altogether, though. Recording technique and mixing could definitely be better, but what little I know is self-taught, and all I'm using is Audacity. Perhaps higher compression would have helped with clarity on the softer lines.

[ February 28, 2013, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: rollainm ]

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RivalOfTheRose
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Another idea, find other musicians that you admire who do the singer/songwriter style with piano. Don't pay attention to specific notes, but general concepts of how they vary not necessarily what they are playing, but how they play it.
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rollainm
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I guess I do that on a subconscious level already. With lyrics especially, the more I write the more I notice I've picked up on a lot of little things I like from my favorite artists. I'll definitely start paying more attention to instrumental cues now, too.
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El JT de Spang
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You might like my songwriting website (www.wewritethesongs.com). I'll try and listen this afternoon and give you a critique if you like.

Love to hear what you think of the site if you do check it out -- it hasn't officially launched yet.

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rollainm
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Thanks JT. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'm checking out your site now.
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Szymon
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Great job! Thanks for sharing. One of my friends, who listened, said the music is very catchy. And I agree.

One thing that seems imperfect is the "down" verse, sometimes. I agree that you could be a little more confident with the singing, louder, stronger. You have a nice voice, don't be affraid to be out of tune, you have as many takes as you want [Smile]

But on the whole I like it very much.

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RivalOfTheRose
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JT, I checked out your site.... cool stuff!
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rollainm
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Thanks for the input, Szymon. And I'm glad you liked it. Could you be more specific about the "down" verse?

JT, yeah I spent a good chunk of my afternoon perusing your site yesterday. Very good stuff, man. One thing I would suggest is a straightforward "getting started" section clearly linked on the home page.

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BlackBlade
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I didn't notice this earlier. I'll try to give your song a listen today and give you some feedback.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by RivalOfTheRose:
JT, I checked out your site.... cool stuff!

Thanks! It's just getting rolling, but it's a topic I've spent a ton of time thinking, reading, and talking about over the last 7-8 years.

quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
JT, yeah I spent a good chunk of my afternoon perusing your site yesterday. Very good stuff, man. One thing I would suggest is a straightforward "getting started" section clearly linked on the home page.

Hmm, that's a good note. I'll have to consider ways to implement such a thing.
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El JT de Spang
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So, I'm not sure what kind of feedback you're looking for, and I'm hesitant to offer much of a critique with being sure of that, but I'll give you a few thoughts (disclaimer: just because I am a songwriter doesn't mean I know **** about writing. Opinions are just that, and take them for what they're worth).

General Impressions:
I think, overall, you're coming along really well. Your piano playing is good (I'd be thrilled if I had even the medium sized piano chops you do), your voice tone is pleasing, and your pitch isn't bad. Your lyrics are interesting, if not particularly my style (I tend to like plainspoken narrative style lyrics with lots of imagery, where yours are a bit abstract [which can be a great thing, mind you]). Your chord choices were interesting as well, and there was reasonably good prosody between the music and melody. This sounds like faint praise, but you'd be STUNNED with home many beginning songwriters have no grasp of these things. You do, and that is excellent!

Song-specific observations:

You mention wanting to add another section, a bridge, but being concerned about the length. I think your instincts on both points are correct. In my experience, though, when people say a song is too long they aren't referring to the time on the clock. They mean it feels long, which is an entirely separate issue. We're talking, always, about building and releasing tension. If there's not tension and movement, even short pieces 'feel' long. Perfect example is Bohemian Rhapsody. It's nearly 8 minutes, but at no point does it 'feel' long. You're never bored. It's like listening to a mini-symphony, with constant movement and new sections.

This song has basically a V/Ch structure that keeps repeating, bouncing back and forth from one to the other. It's broken up with the intro section that starts the song and transitions from Chorus back to Verse, but nothing else. In fact, the intro piece is 25 seconds. If you're trying to write accessible pop music, that's a LONG time to intro a song. I'd cut that in half. If it were me, since I'm a whore for hooks, I'd try to fit a memorable melodic motif into the intro that I could repeat later on in the song, but that's personal preference.

Also, there's not a ton of dynamics in the melody. Now, it works for the content ok, but I'd love to hear a melodic lift somewhere. I feel like you're holding back because you're unsure of your voice. You're able to stretch out a lot more than you did here, and I think you should try to.

Here are your lyrics (modified by me with section identifiers so I can keep track and refer to stuff:
quote:


V1:
Consumed by white florescent light
I spin this web of barely tangent thoughts

Held together by a single thread
It starts to slip
But my grip is tight

PreChorus:
But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down
If I could get off the ground

Chorus 1:
Well I could move these stars
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me
If you let me

V2:
No one should climb this mountain alone
Don't let the scars pull you down

This fear I know all too well
I've been the fire
I've been the bridge

PreChorus:
But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down
If I could just reach somehow

Chorus 2:
Well I could change our stars
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me
If you let me

PreChorus:
But if you touched me now
It'd all come crashing down
Wish I could see through these clouds

Chorus 3:
Well I could catch your star
I could be your sword, your crown
If you let me

PreChorus:
Oh, you can touch me now
Just let it all come crashing down
Well I can see it now

Chorus 4:
'Cause I could be your star
And we could make it somehow
If you let me
If you let me

So, song structure. We have two V/Ch progressions (each with a prechorus), and then it just goes Pr/Ch/Pr/Ch/Out. Four choruses with no bridge or B section is a lot, in my opinion. The traditional move here would be after Chorus 2 to add a bridge section. I'd consider moving up the scale (tonally). You could reverse that intro progression and play it on a higher octave and have an instrumental break, or write bridge lyrics and melody if there's still something there for you to say. Then when you come back to Chorus 3 I'd go straight there without the prechorus. Then if you want to do a double chorus out you can decide how to handle that. That'll make your song about the same length, but it'll feel shorter.

Lyrically, you're not conveying a lot of information with the pre/ch lyrics, even though they change a tiny bit, so repetition is to be used judiciously. There's also not a clear 'hook', but for the style of song it is that's pretty typical, so no worries there.

Vocally, you've got a good voice. It's just new and untrained. Start going for it!

Finally, the cardinal rule of songwriting: good songs are written, but great songs are re-written.

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scifibum
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Waaaay better than I expected. [Smile]
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rollainm
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Thanks scifibum. Of course now I can't help but wonder just how low your initial expectations were. [Smile]

JT,
This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for, although I never expected anyone to put quite so much effort into it. So thank you very much for that. You've given me quite a lot to think about.

I had to look up prosody in a musical context, but yeah, thanks a bunch for the compliment. I attribute a large chunk of the amateur skills I have in this area to my 7 years of band geekdom. [Smile] Seriously though, thank you for recognizing the effort I put into getting the melody into a form I felt fit well into the instrumental.

As for my lyrics: while I did favor somewhat abstract imagery here, my driving goal (not just in this song, but in general) is to write lyrics that can convey the complexity and imperfection of human thought, but to do it in a way that is (relatively) widely relatable on an emotional level - even if the listener doesn't necessarily relate to or recognize every single subtle reference. This may seem counter-intuitive to some, but many of my favorite songs do this very thing rather well. Take "Lua" or "First Day of My Life" by Bright Eyes as fantastic examples, or any number of songs by Ben Folds, Andrew McMahon, or even more commercial artists like Elton John or (though to a much lesser extent) Billy Joel. That's what I'm after, what I've hoped to accomplish here. What are your thoughts on that? Did I accomplish this to at least some degree of success?

On song structure: Right after submitting the op of this thread I started thinking about how I should have cut that intro in half and put a little more thought into a bridge. You're absolutely right - it feels too long, and that's largely due to the excessively repeated Pr/Ch structure with nothing different in there to spice things up. At this point though I'm seriously considering replacing that intro altogether with a completely new, more thinned out two-measure intro. If I do that, put a rest in at the end of verse 2, add an 8 bar bridge (I've already got a pretty solid idea on that, just need to work it out on the piano), cut the third prechorus, and make a few subtle lyric changes, I think the flow and perceived length of the song would be drastically improved. Probably bump the bridge up an octave and leave it up there through chorus 3, then bring it back down on the last prechorus to make things more melodically interesting.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
Thanks scifibum. Of course now I can't help but wonder just how low your initial expectations were. [Smile]

Sorry, I think I'm coming off like a jerk.

My expectations were low, but it wasn't anything personal. I don't know/remember enough about your background to have low expectations based on who you are, so my expectations were based on my perception of the chances that an amateur songwriter's work shared on a general discussion forum would be listenable.

After hearing the song, I'd guess you either have a good instinct for this or have been working pretty hard at it.

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rollainm
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Hehe it's cool man. I knew what you meant.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
As for my lyrics: while I did favor somewhat abstract imagery here, my driving goal (not just in this song, but in general) is to write lyrics that can convey the complexity and imperfection of human thought, but to do it in a way that is (relatively) widely relatable on an emotional level - even if the listener doesn't necessarily relate to or recognize every single subtle reference. This may seem counter-intuitive to some, but many of my favorite songs do this very thing rather well. Take "Lua" or "First Day of My Life" by Bright Eyes as fantastic examples, or any number of songs by Ben Folds, Andrew McMahon, or even more commercial artists like Elton John or (though to a much lesser extent) Billy Joel. That's what I'm after, what I've hoped to accomplish here. What are your thoughts on that? Did I accomplish this to at least some degree of success?

I'm pretty sure I'm the wrong person to ask about that, since it's not something I feel like I have a good handle on specifically. What I CAN say is that those artists you mentioned tend to be a bit wordier than you were here. Take the first verse of the Bright Eyes song you mentioned:
quote:

This is the first day of my life
I swear I was born right in the doorway
I went out in the rain suddenly everything changed
They're spreading blankets on the beach

Yours is the first face that I saw
I think I was blind before I met you
Now I donít know where I am
I donít know where Iíve been
But I know where I want to go

That's conveying a lot more content than your first and second verses combined. So while the words and phrases you chose probably do what you want, I don't know that there's enough syllables in the time allotted to them to convey this amount of story, so to speak. If that makes sense. But that's really up to you, because only you can judge if the song tells the story you want it to.
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rollainm
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Good points. The simplicity of this one was somewhat intentional. I was a bit reserved in several aspects since my primary goal here was just to churn out something that felt complete. But for my next song I intend to focus on lyrics and telling a story a bit more instead of limiting myself to the expression of a single emotion.
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rollainm
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I did a quick little cover of "My Freeze Ray" from Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog - thought some of you folks here might find it amusing. I did all the singing and the instrumental myself (including the trumpet). My "what" girl was a fellow youtuber.

Also, thanks again to you all for all the input on my original song. I'm gonna let it sit for a bit, maybe write some more stuff, and then come back to it at some point and re-record it with your suggestions in mind.

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rollainm
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I present to you good people my latest foray into the surprisingly gratifying world of songwriting. This one's called "Blur the Lines." It comes from a not so good point in my life that, thankfully, I have since worked through and grown from. It actually took several months of tinkering before I was satisfied/annoyed enough with it to let it go and move on to something else.

Those of you who took the time to listen to and comment on my last song, thanks again. The same goes with this one - please feel free to let me know what you think. Whether it's a compliment, criticism, or even just a tangentially related anecdote, songwriting is a pretty awesome learning experience for me, and I'd love to hear whatever you have to say about it.

---
Lyrics:

I feel the tension in my skin
Seems cold for June
My mind mocks the condensation
And slowly fades away

I can see the streetlights in your stare
See the flicker I once knew
Monday's tears are not what linger
I just don't know what's left to say to you

Just keep driving, I'll be fine
I've found a way to blur the lines
Painted constellations, wounded pride
Compose our song and blur the lines

So you're the first to break the silence
It seems strange for you to try
Still I defer to conversation
They're only words to me

And now I feel the cracks spread through these walls
Feel the tension slip away
And for the moment there's no reason
We can't lie for just another day

Just keep driving, I'll be fine
I've found a way to blur the lines
Painted constellations, wounded pride
Compose our song and blur the lines

I never thought that I'd be here
"slipping in between you and your big dreams"

You're in my dreams

The exit sign reflects the moment
We're so close
And so alone

Just keep driving, I'll be fine
I've found a way to blur the lines
Painted constellations, wounded pride
We write our song and blur the lines

I feel the tension in my skin
It seems cold...

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RivalOfTheRose
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Hey, another great job! I though the lyrics were clever in parts, cool intro, and especially enjoyed the sporadic pops into falsetto! My favorite line is "The exit sign reflects the moment."

[ June 13, 2013, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: RivalOfTheRose ]

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rollainm
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Thanks Rival! Yeah, I thought I'd try to spice up the melody a bit. [Smile]

Honestly, while I do like singing and playing the stuff I write, what I think I'd like to try at some point in the near future is writing for someone else - someone with real talent. In fact, I feel like "If You Let Me" would sound pretty fantastic accompanied by just an acoustic guitar and sung by someone with a stronger voice.

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