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Author Topic: Moore Tornado
Thesifer
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Soooo.. the EF5 Tornado missed my house, by about half a mile. I guess it might be time to invest in a storm shelter. So expensive.
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Brian J. Hill
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Investing a couple of thousand bucks in a storm shelter=good investment.
Investing a couple of thousand bucks in a company that specializes in building storm shelters=better investment.

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AchillesHeel
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Investing a couple thousand bucks in moving to the Southwest where the only way weather kills people is via dehydration = safety.
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Samprimary
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Man, if I were to invest in anything, it would be not living there at all.
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Lyrhawn
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Post disaster history suggests a mass migration is unlikely soong as we continue to subsidize living in disaster prone areas.
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Thesifer
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Let's see.. Granted 24 people died, and I could have possibly lost my house. I could move back to San Diego.. and possible lose my house and life, along with thousands upon thousands of others when a large earthquake hits.

Or maybe I'll move to Florida, where there's never a hurri.. oh wait.. Clearwater, Florida is also the Tornado capital of the world, and has hurricanes.

Gulf States, Hurricanes and Tornadoes.

I could move to New Yor... wait nope. Hmmm.. How about the 20+ other tornado prone states.. Or.. Maybe I could live in Hot as balls Phoenix where people die from the heat.. That sounds.. awesome.

No.. I think I'll stay here, and get a storm shelter.

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kmbboots
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In Chicago, our weather is chronic but seldom acute.
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TomDavidson
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There are many reasons why the Great Lakes region is the best place in America to live.
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Thesifer
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Chicago proper looks to be safe from Tornadoes. As I don't think they've ever been hit. But I lived there for a year when I was in the Navy. And I don't think I could again. I don't mind snow, but I can't stand Sub Zero temperatures.


There are definitely benefits and drawbacks to every area. This is where I grew up, I lived in other places for 9 years, and I came back here.

We deal with tornadoes, but if you look at their make-up most of us are vary rarely actually in danger. While it definitely happens, so do lightning strikes, car wrecks, death from hypothermia, etc.

Edit: List of Chicago Area Tornadoes:
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/?n=chi_sig_tornadoes

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Thesifer
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The only thing I disagree with in Oklahoma, is that New Construction doesn't add in a Storm Shelter. I don't mind paying for the storm shelter, and I don't think anyone else does really either that lives here.. Just in case. If it's factored into the cost of the house, that's pretty cheap.

Basements in the Northern States: 80% of houses.
Basements in Oklahoma: 5-6%

Storm Shelters, I don't know the percentage, but it's not very high here either.

If they put them in when the house is built, the cost of 3-6k or so is easily pushed over the life of the loan, and nearly nothing in the scheme of things.

They require "Earthquake Codes" to be followed in California, and rightfully so. There are no "Tornado Codes" for Oklahoma.

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Rakeesh
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Listening to reporting on the surprising (to outsiders) rarity of shelters or basements, I learned that in the present it's as much due to an impression of their high expense, more than a reality. This impression was built in the past when it really was quite expensive (and prone to damage over time) to build underground, due to a variety of factors such as frost levels in the ground, the high water table, and high amounts of clay in the ground. These factors mean that when a home is built, the foundation isn't required to go very far into the ground, removing an incentive to make a basement easier, and the water and clay lead to lots of cracking or water damage. Or did, rather, but contractors have as you say largely overcome these problems for a mild increase in expense.
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Thesifer
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I've heard that as well. But the problem is, they looked into it, and Oklahoma Contractors don't actually know how to do it. Because they never learned. Primarily because they didn't have to.

If we had built our house, we would have put in a basement, or shelter when it was new construction. But we bought our house is 2011 and it was built in 2004, without a shelter. We're trying to rearrange our budget so we can afford to put one in soon.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Listening to reporting on the surprising (to outsiders) rarity of shelters or basements, I learned that in the present it's as much due to an impression of their high expense, more than a reality. This impression was built in the past when it really was quite expensive (and prone to damage over time) to build underground, due to a variety of factors such as frost levels in the ground, the high water table, and high amounts of clay in the ground. These factors mean that when a home is built, the foundation isn't required to go very far into the ground, removing an incentive to make a basement easier, and the water and clay lead to lots of cracking or water damage. Or did, rather, but contractors have as you say largely overcome these problems for a mild increase in expense.

Actually I just read a couple articles on this. The problem isn't the perceived cost, it's the lack of ROI.

Homebuilders (or homeowners, I guess) will never recoup the investment in a basement because there's no increased value in having one. Property listings don't even have a space for basements, it has to be listed under misc. notes, and since so few homes have one, there's no way to determine their market value. The result is that homes with a basement cost no more than homes without one, so people don't see the point in the added expense when it adds no value to the home.

Talk about a money pit...

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Thesifer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Listening to reporting on the surprising (to outsiders) rarity of shelters or basements, I learned that in the present it's as much due to an impression of their high expense, more than a reality. This impression was built in the past when it really was quite expensive (and prone to damage over time) to build underground, due to a variety of factors such as frost levels in the ground, the high water table, and high amounts of clay in the ground. These factors mean that when a home is built, the foundation isn't required to go very far into the ground, removing an incentive to make a basement easier, and the water and clay lead to lots of cracking or water damage. Or did, rather, but contractors have as you say largely overcome these problems for a mild increase in expense.

Actually I just read a couple articles on this. The problem isn't the perceived cost, it's the lack of ROI.

Homebuilders (or homeowners, I guess) will never recoup the investment in a basement because there's no increased value in having one. Property listings don't even have a space for basements, it has to be listed under misc. notes, and since so few homes have one, there's no way to determine their market value. The result is that homes with a basement cost no more than homes without one, so people don't see the point in the added expense when it adds no value to the home.

Talk about a money pit...

Which you would think would change. Although I think I would rather have a basement, that has a reinforced roof over it, and some sort of steel entry door. Because an EF5 going over your house, is going to take you very neatly out of the basement I had as a kid. (In Oklahoma, surprisingly enough.)
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Lyrhawn
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That's part of the added expense if you want to use it as a shelter. Most basements where I grew up would be a death trap during a serious tornado, there's nothing but wood and insulation between you and the next level. You need to build one and then put a concrete slab over it.
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Thesifer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
That's part of the added expense if you want to use it as a shelter. Most basements where I grew up would be a death trap during a serious tornado, there's nothing but wood and insulation between you and the next level. You need to build one and then put a concrete slab over it.

Or just get a "Fraidy Hole" type Garage Shelter. [Smile]
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Stone_Wolf_
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I understand that used cargo containers make great and cheap storm shelters...half bury them (use the dirt to cover the sides) and install an easy access door.
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Thesifer
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I understand that used cargo containers make great and cheap storm shelters...half bury them (use the dirt to cover the sides) and install an easy access door.

Except they are really large, hard to put in a populated area, and they don't have just a ton of "Cargo containers" laying around extra in Oklahoma. If I lived in the country, I would probably look into something like that. But being in Moore with .24 Acres or something, I don't have the room to do that.
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TomDavidson
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Yeah, cargo containers aren't inexpensive in inland states. If you're near a port, they're a great option -- but here, you're better off with poured concrete.
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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
Originally posted by Thesifer:
Soooo.. the EF5 Tornado missed my house, by about half a mile. I guess it might be time to invest in a storm shelter. So expensive.

Huh, we must be, like, neighbors (ish).
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tertiaryadjunct
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quote:
Except they are really large, hard to put in a populated area, and they don't have just a ton of "Cargo containers" laying around extra in Oklahoma. If I lived in the country, I would probably look into something like that. But being in Moore with .24 Acres or something, I don't have the room to do that. [/QB]
A standard 20' x 8' cargo container has a 160 square foot footprint. You can't find somewhere to bury that in your 10,454 square foot property? I have the same size lot and I'd probably drop it where my vegetable garden is and put a raised bed there on top of it. (But I live in California - different dangers here so instead I had to upgrade the house with modern sheathing, beam brackets, concrete anchors, etc. and the veggies got to remain untouched [Wink] ).
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Thesifer
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quote:
Originally posted by tertiaryadjunct:
quote:
Except they are really large, hard to put in a populated area, and they don't have just a ton of "Cargo containers" laying around extra in Oklahoma. If I lived in the country, I would probably look into something like that. But being in Moore with .24 Acres or something, I don't have the room to do that.

A standard 20' x 8' cargo container has a 160 square foot footprint. You can't find somewhere to bury that in your 10,454 square foot property? I have the same size lot and I'd probably drop it where my vegetable garden is and put a raised bed there on top of it. (But I live in California - different dangers here so instead I had to upgrade the house with modern sheathing, beam brackets, concrete anchors, etc. and the veggies got to remain untouched [Wink] ). [/QB]
Doubtful, also doubtful my HOA would allow me to dig the earth to put it there. Also my lot may be that big.. but it has a 1750 sq ft house on it, a driveway, a large tree in the front and back yard, a storage shed, a small tree in the backyard, sidewalk in the front.. porch in the back... So.. no, probably not.

But I will soon be getting a Garage Based storm shelter that is 'underground' and doesn't take up much space at all, and the parking can still be used.

@Ginol_Enam Oh yeah? Are you in Moore, or near? I live in South Moore. I think once looking at the 'actual' track and the damage, I'm probably about 1 1/2 miles sound of the track once it crossed I-35. It was a lot closer before it crossed when it was heading down 19th street, but we live on the South East side, so we just got debris in the yard, but no damage.

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Teshi
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This is sort of academic (well, very academic) but I've been reading about innovation and how governments can promote it and I was interested to see that regulations (for example, earthquake or tornado protection regulations) can contribute to innovations, as people seek to develop new and clever ways of doing things they have to do for less money/impact.

This thread is an example of this and that pleases me.

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brojack17
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Don't forget about the easments. I used to live in an Oklahoma neighborhood where the easments came within 1 foot of the back door.
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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
Originally posted by Thesifer:
@Ginol_Enam Oh yeah? Are you in Moore, or near? I live in South Moore. I think once looking at the 'actual' track and the damage, I'm probably about 1 1/2 miles sound of the track once it crossed I-35. It was a lot closer before it crossed when it was heading down 19th street, but we live on the South East side, so we just got debris in the yard, but no damage.

I live up on the north side, near 27th. We didn't get any damage or even debris, but it was pretty nerveracking as it was going through. I was at work downtown, but my wife and kids were home. I was certain it was south of is, but I couldn't a hold of her afterward.
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bCurt
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An F5 tornado took off my in-laws roof in 1992 in Texas. It would have leveled the house if it weren't for where it is located on a hill. They weathered that monster of a storm in a basement and later would do the same as another tornado came through and once again ripped their roof off. Shelters or basements can save lives. It is still amazing to me how so few died during this one considering the level of destruction. I've spent many moments over the years growing up in Texas in the bathtub with a mattress over my head but thankfully never had a home hit by one.
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Thesifer
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Sad that people lost their lives Friday night in Oklahoma City, mostly because people seemed to panic and clog the freeways as they all were thinking about the Moore tornado and the destructive path it left.

But I can honestly say for me, it was an exciting evening, and was something I won't forget.

I'm a fan of severe weather. I do wish we had better ways for people to be protected when things get out of hand, but I love the weather all the same.

I think it's just the raw awesome power of it all.

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Lyrhawn
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I haven't gotten tornadoes sine last year here in Lincoln, but, I've had my fill of extreme weather for the season. My apartment was almost struck by lightning a half dozen times in the last week.

There were two strikes on my block, and four more within a couple blocks.

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Thesifer
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The Tornado on Friday was (Controversially) upgraded to EF-5 Status, widest Tornado in Recorded History at 2.6 Miles.
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