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I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Sa'eed is literally incapable of considering sexuality in the context of social and romantic relationships, trust, love, kindness, laughter, personality, and happenstance, or if he's being facetious in talking about it as if it was a literal commodity being horded by "Alpha Males." Because if he is serious, it's actually really sad that he has no understanding of love, or what a relationship with a woman is actually like. It's not something that can be quantified or bought.
Anyway, apart from MRA (a cause a think actually has some merit, but who's supporters I find mostly cringeworthy) and any associated political issues, I want to say it's pretty clear you don't even understand women enough to treat them like human beings. And until you're able to listen to, understand, and respect a woman, and treat her with the dignity and respect yourself would want to be treated with, you're not going to have any luck with dating. This has nothing to do with Alpha Males stealing all the women. It has everything to do with your own fear and hatred of women.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: ...we just need to extend the sexual libertarianism a bit more as to allow involuntarily celibate men the option of buying sex.
As a registered libertarian I agree with the concept of legalizing prostitution.
But seriously. With little to no chance of offspring due to condoms, with no emotional attachment to the person, with no on going relationship...how is sex better then masturbation? When I was a virgin a long long time ago I might have thought otherwise, but seriously, if it's just a stranger you are paying, keep your money and limit your risk of STDs and just do it yourself!
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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That's been my question all along. If it's really just a question of sexual release for these poor men who can't get any, they can masturbate, right? But it's actually about power: they want to demonstrate that they can get sex with a woman, not that they can achieve sexual release. In this scenario, a prostitute is actually an emotional stand-in for their conquest; she's serving as both a prop and a therapist as much as she is a fleshlight.
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Obama
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If ya'll think masturbation is as good as sex, I don't think you're having the right type of sex.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: I don't want to really change the rules. Things are mostly fine, we just need to extend the sexual libertarianism a bit more as to allow involuntarily celibate men the option of buying sex.
Dude, how much money do you have? Because any woman who is selling sex as a choice will get to be choosy about her clientele.
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quote:If ya'll think masturbation is as good as sex, I don't think you're having the right type of sex.
Fair enough. But the difference in sensation is not so severe, in my opinion, that it is necessary to rejigger society to democratize access to vaginas.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: I don't want to really change the rules. Things are mostly fine, we just need to extend the sexual libertarianism a bit more as to allow involuntarily celibate men the option of buying sex.
Dude, how much money do you have? Because any woman who is selling sex as a choice will get to be choosy about her clientele.
Ha, good point. Of course it's easier to understand this when you realize Clive is convinced women are generally already prostitutes.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Dude, how much money do you have? Because any woman who is selling sex as a choice will get to be choosy about her clientele.
Maybe, maybe not. I have no experience with prostitutes having never bought one's services before but I was quite friendly with an ex-stripper for a while. I used to talk to her about the business all the time. She said she got out of it because most of the other girls would do just about anything for $25 and she felt that she just couldn't compete with that unless she did it herself. It got to the point where all the regulars expected every girl to be available but once they figured out that she wasn't, the tips dried up.
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Okay that said Sa'eed, some of the things you're saying are pretty sexist. I mean. Jeez. And somewhere there are members of the opposite sex that face some of the same obstacles you do and men don't have a monopoly on them.
The average woman who isn't obese is attractive to hundreds of millions of men in her teens and 20s and maybe even into her 30s. The only women who have problems with dating and attracting men are the truly unfortunate ones when it comes to looks, and I'm talking ones with genetic abnormalities or some such.
Have you noticed how men gossip about women being flat-chested? No ass? Freckle-faced? Boy body? Too skinny? Too manly? Too strong? Too pasty? Too plain? Men put women under a microscope all the time. Especially the "alpha males". The petty differences between different women absolutely generally matter to them. And a lot of other men too.
quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: I don't want to really change the rules. Things are mostly fine, we just need to extend the sexual libertarianism a bit more as to allow involuntarily celibate men the option of buying sex.
Dude, how much money do you have? Because any woman who is selling sex as a choice will get to be choosy about her clientele.
That's why I'm championing legalization. It would increase the quantity and quality of prostitutes and prices would drop in recessions.
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Okay that said Sa'eed, some of the things you're saying are pretty sexist. I mean. Jeez. And somewhere there are members of the opposite sex that face some of the same obstacles you do and men don't have a monopoly on them.
The average woman who isn't obese is attractive to hundreds of millions of men in her teens and 20s and maybe even into her 30s. The only women who have problems with dating and attracting men are the truly unfortunate ones when it comes to looks, and I'm talking ones with genetic abnormalities or some such.
Have you noticed how men gossip about women being flat-chested? No ass? Freckle-faced? Boy body? Too skinny? Too manly? Too strong? Too pasty? Too plain? Men put women under a microscope all the time. Especially the "alpha males". The petty differences between different women absolutely generally matter to them.
Guys can be obnoxiously judgmental about these sort of things, but normal guys who pretend they're deal breakers are just posturing. It's only the alpha males who can afford to really screen women on such basis, not that they always do. Often mere novelty trumps everything else for these sex hoarders.
quote:If ya'll think masturbation is as good as sex, I don't think you're having the right type of sex.
Fair enough. But the difference in sensation is not so severe, in my opinion, that it is necessary to rejigger society to democratize access to vaginas.
So legalizing prostitution would be rejiggering society?
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Okay that said Sa'eed, some of the things you're saying are pretty sexist. I mean. Jeez. And somewhere there are members of the opposite sex that face some of the same obstacles you do and men don't have a monopoly on them.
The average woman who isn't obese is attractive to hundreds of millions of men in her teens and 20s and maybe even into her 30s. The only women who have problems with dating and attracting men are the truly unfortunate ones when it comes to looks, and I'm talking ones with genetic abnormalities or some such.
Have you noticed how men gossip about women being flat-chested? No ass? Freckle-faced? Boy body? Too skinny? Too manly? Too strong? Too pasty? Too plain? Men put women under a microscope all the time. Especially the "alpha males". The petty differences between different women absolutely generally matter to them.
Guys can be obnoxiously judgmental about these sort of things, but normal guys who pretend they're deal breakers are just posturing. It's only the alpha males who can afford to really screen women on such basis.
Plenty of them still do. And, if the studs "screen" their partners and aren't available, then women have to...date everyone else.
Posts: 1407 | Registered: Oct 2008
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If I'm a girl whose a 5 sex rank, then my range is going to be 4-infinity. But if that guy is just looking for a cum dumpster then subtract the median by three.
For the sake of argument, granting the silly notion that everyone has a "sex rank"... The biggest flaw with your theory is that most guys are finding mates. And most of us are in the middle of your bell curve, not at the end with your "alphas".
I'd probably be a 5-6 myself on your scale, not anything resembling an "alpha male". And I did just fine in the female interest department, thanks. I think most guys arguing against you are themselves counter-examples to your claims.
I think there are two real problems, in your case. The first is that you'd probably rate 2-3 points lower than you think you do. Perhaps you are average looking, but there's more to sexual attraction than pure appearance.
The other problem is that when you meet a 6, you're probably going to rate her as a 3 because she'd had sex in the past. Which is particularly ironic, considering you're the one looking to have sex with whores.
-----------------------------------------------
I'm actually a proponent of legal prostitution myself, but your problems have nothing to do with the availability of sex-workers.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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Reading through some of these articles and all the problems that have occurred where it is legal, I think I have figured out how to solve all these problems. Prostitutes need to unionize.
As crazy as that may sound and as impossible as it would probably be for them to do it, I seriously think it would solve most of their problems. Normally my somewhat libertarian views make me somewhat (but not completely) anti-union and a government forcing people to unionize is even worse but in this case, I think they should. If you're going to legalize prostitution, they need to join the union to be licensed.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I think most guys arguing against you are themselves counter-examples to your claims.
Whatever, brah, I'm like totally an Alpha. I only post on this forum with you nerds because sometimes I get bored of having sex with women and lifting weights all the time.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go monopolize some more female erotic capital. Nerds.
For the sake of argument, granting the silly notion that everyone has a "sex rank"... The biggest flaw with your theory is that most guys are finding mates. And most of us are in the middle of your bell curve, not at the end with your "alphas".
Eventually, but there is a shortage of available 18 to 28 year old women, because not only are they dating men their own age, but they're also dating men well into their 30s. Women aged 18 to 30 are also being competed for by guys into their 30s and 40s. This wasn't an issue when everyone married young and it was hard to get divorced. Back then everyone matched up in sex rank and every man got a young woman, with whom he grew old and he never became too perturbed by her inevitability sagging looks, because he had bonded with her in her prime and developed "wife goggles" for her. Most people today end up pairing up but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of men are left out in the cold in their teens and 20s due to their female peers being at the height of their sexual value and being also sought by men considerably older.
quote: I'd probably be a 5-6 myself on your scale, not anything resembling an "alpha male". And I did just fine in the female interest department, thanks. I think most guys arguing against you are themselves counter-examples to your claims.
I think there are two real problems, in your case. The first is that you'd probably rate 2-3 points lower than you think you do. Perhaps you are average looking, but there's more to sexual attraction than pure appearance.
Even women who are 3's are scarce in their prime years because the 5's have to dip down due to the pressure from the guys above them.
quote:The other problem is that when you meet a 6, you're probably going to rate her as a 3 because she'd had sex in the past. Which is particularly ironic, considering you're the one looking to have sex with whores.
I don't know where this point came from. By some age you have no right to expect to date virginal women.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Back then everyone matched up in sex rank and every man got a young woman, with whom he grew old and he never became too perturbed by her inevitability sagging looks, because he had bonded with her in her prime and developed "wife goggles" for her.
Yeah, I can't imagine why it's hard for you to talk attractive women into sexy times.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
if only women were stopped from collectively inflating the value of sex, he could have his guaranteed sex-rank-match female delivered to him like in the Good Old Days when this happened to everyone yeah this is definitely that thread
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Obama
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Have you considered a mail order bride, Sa'eed? You could learn her language, and make it as difficult as possible for her to learn English. That would solve most of your problems, right?
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well, we do know he was shopping around for a surrogate he could impregnate, because while he's not too excited with the whole dealing with females thing, he still wants to breed.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:I don't know where this point came from. By some age you have no right to expect to date virginal women.
Its something I assumed, based on your views on women who choose to "slut it up". It appears to have been a misjudgement, which is a pleasant surprise to me.
quote:Even women who are 3's are scarce in their prime years because the 5's have to dip down due to the pressure from the guys above them.
I am curious on what data (even anecdotal) you are basing this on, beyond your own rejection.
Having myself had little difficulty securing a mate in her prime, and having friends and family that pretty much all did the same, it seems obviously false.
With no "dipping", mind you. When rating for attractiveness, I'd say that I have more guy friends with women who are "out of their league" looks wise than vice-versa.
Are we just all "alphas" and don't know it? If so, perhaps I need to join Dogbreath at the gym...
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: I don't want to really change the rules. Things are mostly fine, we just need to extend the sexual libertarianism a bit more as to allow involuntarily celibate men the option of buying sex.
Dude, how much money do you have? Because any woman who is selling sex as a choice will get to be choosy about her clientele.
That's why I'm championing legalization. It would increase the quantity and quality of prostitutes and prices would drop in recessions.
I've never utilized their services, but in the next county over from Las Vegas here lies Nye county, where prostitution is legal. It takes about 45 minutes to get there from the Las Vegas strip. Hey, they need payroll and Human Resources services too!
I can tell you that the price, quality, and quantity you speak of isn't there. What you do get is however is a semblance of safety, as each girl must be tested for STD's on a regular basis.
A couple of these establishments also have men. The men tend to cost a LOT more and the selection process to become an employee is VERY difficult. Unless you could double for an extra on Spartacus, you probably won't even be considered.
That being said, I'm for legalizing it. In an age where people want full control over their bodies and want the freedom to do with it what they want, why not? In fact, if more men could utilize prostitution legally, it may bring the single parent household and abortion rates down.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:I don't know where this point came from. By some age you have no right to expect to date virginal women.
Its something I assumed, based on your views on women who choose to "slut it up". It appears to have been a misjudgement, which is a pleasant surprise to me.
quote:Even women who are 3's are scarce in their prime years because the 5's have to dip down due to the pressure from the guys above them.
I am curious on what data (even anecdotal) you are basing this on, beyond your own rejection.
It's mainly based on reasoning and what I observe in the wide culture at large, how no one bats an eye that George Clooney keeps dating women in their best years and then upgrades to a younger woman when his current girlfriend hits her mid 30s, and how he's been doing that for more than two decades without even needing to hide it. If the culture at large is okay with that in it's okay with some very personable bar tender doing the same thing, some divorced guy remarrying a woman thirteen years younger than his previous wife, in short, some men get the best years of multiple women. I mean isn't this obvious? And isn't that surely going to lead to a shortage not just of attractive women but even average women in their 20s?
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I really need to stop reading this thread. It hurts my soul. Or more to point, Sa'eed's comments make me want to take a shower and scrub with iodine.
It's no secret I don't get along with Samp but I think he is right right right about this one.
posted
Last time I checked, flights within the US were fairly cheap. Where in the US are you travelling from?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Obama
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Uncomfortable isn't the word I'd use. Feeling pity is more accurate, for me, at least. If you really believe all of this, or more importantly, if you allow these beliefs to sabotage any chance you have of happiness with a woman when it is so very clear that the lack of such a relationship is why you are so angry and bitter, then it's very sad.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: It's mainly based on reasoning and what I observe in the wide culture at large, how no one bats an eye that George Clooney keeps dating women in their best years and then upgrades to a younger woman when his current girlfriend hits her mid 30s, and how he's been doing that for more than two decades without even needing to hide it. If the culture at large is okay with that in it's okay with some very personable bar tender doing the same thing, some divorced guy remarrying a woman thirteen years younger than his previous wife, in short, some men get the best years of multiple women. I mean isn't this obvious? And isn't that surely going to lead to a shortage not just of attractive women but even average women in their 20s?
Wow. I don't think I've ever met anyone as whiny as you.
Posts: 1357 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I really need to stop reading this thread. It hurts my soul. Or more to point, Sa'eed's comments make me want to take a shower and scrub with iodine.
It's no secret I don't get along with Samp but I think he is right right right about this one.
Blarg!
I can't imagine many sane people would think he's wrong in this case.
I too feel a mixture of pity and disgust. Mostly pity, because barring a radical change of heart, his own horribly twisted worldview will keep him from ever finding any real satisfaction. And he'll keep blaming women for it, which isn't a healthy or safe thing at all, especially for any women he knows.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
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next step: discussing Pick Up Artist systems, negging, and forays into neuro-linguistic programming, perhaps discussing the PUA blogs and subreddits you post in
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sa'eed, You remind me of several men I've known, and slightly of myself, when I was 10+ years younger. I'm also aware of the online culture of virginal young men, who have made this kind of whining into a lifestyle.
At this point it's pretty much impossible for you to not to know, how illogical your arguments are. Others have already repeatedly pointed out the massive flaws in your reasoning.
You are extremely transparent. It's obvious that you have a deep fear of women, and you've been so traumatized by other people, (Probably by your mother, but it could be other(s)), that you throw all your intellect out of the window, and replace it with blind emotion. It sounds like you're still re-living your childhood/teenage traumas.
The thing is, you obviously have trouble establishing a relationship with a woman, due to your fear. But roughly 95% of men don't have this problem. Yes, at least 95% of men actually find nice relationships. And remarkably, with women, it's the same 95%.
The "low value" men and women don't have any trouble finding company. They date each other. This can be very easily observed all around you. The 5% who don't end up in relationship, are so for very different reasons. Some are severely ugly, some extremely anti-social, some are heavily traumatized, etc. And even the great majority of them *could* have relationships, but they choose to not to pursue them.
And the fact is that the successful 95% actually has all kinds of men and women: Ugly, fat, shy, nerdy, stupid, anti-social, awkward, poor, boring, crippled, etc.
Since you obviously consider yourself a low-value man, there is very easy fix to your problem: Date low-value women. That's what other low-value men do. If you want to attract higher value women, then you have to raise your own value. Go to gym, get a stylist, get speech courses, get interesting hobbies, etc. Go out there and meet all kinds of people, the any chance you got.
It's actually all really easy and logical, but you have to do the work. You might feel that you are entitled to getting things you don't really work for (A lot of people feel this kind of entitlement).
But you're not entitled to anything. Life is not a movie. There is no beautiful princess that's gonna save you.
If it helps you boost your sexual self-esteem a bit, you can try that prostitute (Assuming she's and adult, and in the profession at her own will). Although I wouldn't be too surprised, if you would be too scared to actually have sex with a prostitute, since she is also a woman. And you're just very scared of women.
In Nevada at least there are legal brothels.
...I can't also help thinking, that you are very well aware of how poorly your worldview holds logical scrutiny. I've noticed an interesting trend with men who hold this kind of worldview:
A lot of them really, really want to passively-aggressively express, how little women like the kind of men they are. This is what you are expressing as well, and you're not really bothered at all, that everyone notices you are really talking about yourself.
I think that partially you're looking for pity. I think you want other people to say that it's really terrible that you have been mistreated in life, that it's really unfair how unpopular you are, and how sad it is that you struggle so much.
And I do feel genuinely sorry for you. But not for those reasons. I'm sorry that you were *repeatedly emotionally abused* when you were younger. And yes, it shouldn't have happened. People shouldn't treat children like that.
Also I think you are looking for approval. Despite your arguing, you would be happy, if a woman in this thread would praise your intellect and knowledge. It would make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Particularly since you are not used to receiving that kind of feedback from women, at all.
But women don't say nice things to you, if you are at first waging some illogical war on them. You just frustrate them, and they even assume you might want to hurt them, if you had a chance. They try to stay away from you. They are smart and logical for acting so.
All in all, I'm sorry for the kid that you once were, and sorry that you got so badly hurt. But you just gotta let go of the past, live today, and look in the future.
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: Interesting thread to read.
Sa'eed, You remind me of several men I've known, and slightly of myself, when I was 10+ years younger. I'm also aware of the online culture of virginal young men, who have made this kind of whining into a lifestyle.
At this point it's pretty much impossible for you to not to know, how illogical your arguments are. Others have already repeatedly pointed out the massive flaws in your reasoning.
You are extremely transparent. It's obvious that you have a deep fear of women, and you've been so traumatized by other people, (Probably by your mother, but it could be other(s)), that you throw all your intellect out of the window, and replace it with blind emotion. It sounds like you're still re-living your childhood/teenage traumas.
The thing is, you obviously have trouble establishing a relationship with a woman, due to your fear. But roughly 95% of men don't have this problem. Yes, at least 95% of men actually find nice relationships. And remarkably, with women, it's the same 95%.
The "low value" men and women don't have any trouble finding company. They date each other. This can be very easily observed all around you. The 5% who don't end up in relationship, are so for very different reasons. Some are severely ugly, some extremely anti-social, some are heavily traumatized, etc. And even the great majority of them *could* have relationships, but they choose to not to pursue them.
And the fact is that the successful 95% actually has all kinds of men and women: Ugly, fat, shy, nerdy, stupid, anti-social, awkward, poor, boring, crippled, etc.
Since you obviously consider yourself a low-value man, there is very easy fix to your problem: Date low-value women. That's what other low-value men do. If you want to attract higher value women, then you have to raise your own value. Go to gym, get a stylist, get speech courses, get interesting hobbies, etc. Go out there and meet all kinds of people, the any chance you got.
It's actually all really easy and logical, but you have to do the work. You might feel that you are entitled to getting things you don't really work for (A lot of people feel this kind of entitlement).
But you're not entitled to anything. Life is not a movie. There is no beautiful princess that's gonna save you.
If it helps you boost your sexual self-esteem a bit, you can try that prostitute (Assuming she's and adult, and in the profession at her own will). Although I wouldn't be too surprised, if you would be too scared to actually have sex with a prostitute, since she is also a woman. And you're just very scared of women.
In Nevada at least there are legal brothels.
...I can't also help thinking, that you are very well aware of how poorly your worldview holds logical scrutiny. I've noticed an interesting trend with men who hold this kind of worldview:
A lot of them really, really want to passively-aggressively express, how little women like the kind of men they are. This is what you are expressing as well, and you're not really bothered at all, that everyone notices you are really talking about yourself.
I think that partially you're looking for pity. I think you want other people to say that it's really terrible that you have been mistreated in life, that it's really unfair how unpopular you are, and how sad it is that you struggle so much.
And I do feel genuinely sorry for you. But not for those reasons. I'm sorry that you were *repeatedly emotionally abused* when you were younger. And yes, it shouldn't have happened. People shouldn't treat children like that.
Also I think you are looking for approval. Despite your arguing, you would be happy, if a woman in this thread would praise your intellect and knowledge. It would make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Particularly since you are not used to receiving that kind of feedback from women, at all.
But women don't say nice things to you, if you are at first waging some illogical war on them. You just frustrate them, and they even assume you might want to hurt them, if you had a chance. They try to stay away from you. They are smart and logical for acting so.
All in all, I'm sorry for the kid that you once were, and sorry that you got so badly hurt. But you just gotta let go of the past, live today, and look in the future.
I read this post a couple of hours ago. Some of it is on the mark, and some of it is not (I'm not trying to fish for complements from female posters...lol.) In any case, I read it a couple of times and thought about it and since you obviously took some time to write it deserves this acknowledgement from me.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Sa'eed...one principal I'd like to share with you: if you can't love yourself, you can't love someone else. Now, when it comes to sex, it can be as different as the word "transportation" can mean a quarter million dollar Bently or a crowded public bus. That is to say, sex can be harmful to healing, tender to rough, meaningful to meaningless. But when one feels unhappy or isolated they tend to look for what is missing in their life and say "if only I had <fill in the blank> I would be happy". To me, sex without emotional attachment is meanngless friction. And the big problem is is we don't want meaningless friction or else we would never leave or bedrooms except for more porn and tissues. So, either that sex is so unfulfilling that it only pushes you deeper into depression and loneliness or even worse you try and convince yourself that that relative stranger who you just bedded is the love of your life, the one missing piece of the puzzle, the only thing keeping you afloat in a dark sea. The depression is actually an easier road.
Not to mention that male sexual proformance is -vastly- affected by emotions. And if you are eager yet afraid and on top of all of that angry at your isolation you might not be able to get it up at all.
Now imagine for a second you let go of the thought that sex is a man's right, that women are a resource that can be depeated or withheld from you. Look at sex as the ultimate intimacy, the way you can physically demonstrate your emotional feelings for another human being. Would you really want to squander such a delicate and vital gift, would you really want to share that closeness with a totak stranger who is only interested in your money?
My children are the living embodiment of my wife and my love. Our sex is sacred and presious and I wouldn't trade her for a rotating harum of super models and a giant bag cash.
What you seek is not sex. Ejaculating into a woman will not make you happy.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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