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Author Topic: Cliven Bundy Scares Everybody Away
Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Heisenberg:
Sorry, was just a typo. It should read "no point," not "in point."

Just a response to Brian saying that at one point in history the debate centred around ideas.

Looking at the course of American politics, the modern era is actually the most polite. Back in the day, politicians used proxies to insult each other, and the stuff Jefferson and Adams said about each other that was repeated by others was pretty heinous.

Things got better when Hanna invented the modern election campaign. Better still later on.

Now we've managed to veil everything in sarcasm, false niceties and code words.

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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
John Adams is a hideous hermaphroditical character with neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman.
-Richmond Examiner
Thanks BB! That's one of my favorites. I was just about to post it. [Big Grin]
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
John Adams is a hideous hermaphroditical character with neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman.
-Richmond Examiner
My hometown has always excelled at bashing yankees. Well, at least until that whole civil war thing. [Big Grin]
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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

It's okay, there's always the owner of the L.A. Clippers if he needs a friend.

Hail Hydra.
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Rakeesh
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*snort* that got a grin from me, man.
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Samprimary
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aahahahaah
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
Everybody who's anybody in the conservative establishment has made a public statement saying they don't support this stuff Bundy is spouting.

It's okay, there's always the owner of the L.A. Clippers if he needs a friend.

quote:
Donald Sterling banned for life, fined $2.5 million
yessss
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Samprimary
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http://gawker.com/nevada-ranch-militias-turn-against-each-other-over-dron-1570140614

quote:
The armed anti-government play-warriors who built a military force around a racist redneck rancher in Nevada have split into rival factions and are now at the brink of civil war, calling each other crazies and traitors and spreading rumors that Eric Holder planned a drone strike on them.
guaranteed by armed militiamen: the freedomest place on earth
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TomDavidson
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Oh, man, if we have to have a civil war in the next couple of years, a bunch of right-wing gun nuts shooting each other in an empty wasteland would be just about the best kind.
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Jake
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Geraine, I'm pretty curious to read your response to the people that rebutted your argument that Bundy's remarks weren't racist. Do you stand by your earlier argument, or did you find what they (Dan and Strider, particularly) said persuasive? If you do stand by it, what are your thoughts on what they said?
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michaele8
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This Bundy guy's character as opposed to Dirty Harry Reid?
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Rakeesh
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Ohhh, burn!

Wait.

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MattP
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hehehe https://www.facebook.com/www.bundyfest.org
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Samprimary
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this needs to be a theme park
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BlackBlade
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We could make said theme park a mandate in our Constitution. That would probably make heads explode.
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Samprimary
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Now gather round th' campfire and let me tell you the tale, as I pull out my good ol' kevlar-plated travel gitar, ..

of ol' Cliven "Freedom" Bundy, a hero right quick like Johnny Appleseed. But instead'o seedin' trees, he seeded Freedom.

Y'see it's when a man's got Grit and Gumption — the Grit and Gumption necessary to freeload on fed'ral land, he earns us back our God (th' correct God, I shant hes'tate to add) and Founder granted rights. The rights to say shockingly ig'nant things 'bout the Negro, causing a bunch o' conservatives up in D.C. to drop you right quick like a bad habit, and regret standing behind you at all ... the rights to get in fistfights and shouting matches 'cause half o' you think the Eric Holder's gonna kill y'all with drones or fluoride or sommat ... the rights to use George Washington as an icon by ignoring that the Whiskey Rebellion was a thing ...

and it is for that man, and those rights, and those freedom, and a bunch o' guns, and God, and that we're totally not racist and what happened wasn't racist at all stop being so bigoted you P.C. obsessives, that we sing this song to every hero who literally just doesn't acknowledge the federal government.

and it goes a little sompin like this:

OH, Good Old Cliven Bundy
Now Some Would Call Him Fundie
But Here We Know Tha

*is shot for 'degenerating political discourse' that'll show me*

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Geraine, I'm pretty curious to read your response to the people that rebutted your argument that Bundy's remarks weren't racist. Do you stand by your earlier argument, or did you find what they (Dan and Strider, particularly) said persuasive? If you do stand by it, what are your thoughts on what they said?

Bundy raises a point about black culture that is ignored. When 12% of the population is African American and 36% of all abortions are performed on African-American women, there is a problem. When the rate of un-wed mothers in the African American community is 72%, there is a problem. Many blame it on "racism" or lack of "equal opportunity," but this doesn't explain why other minorities have vastly lower numbers.

Is the language Bundy used racist? After rereading the statements, yeah, they were. I was wrong. Was my judgement a little biased since he is a (fairly distant) relative? Yeah probably.

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Samprimary
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you're a distant relative of bundy?

that's actually kinda neat, haha

quote:
Many blame it on "racism" or lack of "equal opportunity," but this doesn't explain why other minorities have vastly lower numbers.
those numbers being? i would like to see what dataset you are using.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
Geraine, I'm pretty curious to read your response to the people that rebutted your argument that Bundy's remarks weren't racist. Do you stand by your earlier argument, or did you find what they (Dan and Strider, particularly) said persuasive? If you do stand by it, what are your thoughts on what they said?

Bundy raises a point about black culture that is ignored. When 12% of the population is African American and 36% of all abortions are performed on African-American women, there is a problem. When the rate of un-wed mothers in the African American community is 72%, there is a problem. Many blame it on "racism" or lack of "equal opportunity," but this doesn't explain why other minorities have vastly lower numbers.

Is the language Bundy used racist? After rereading the statements, yeah, they were. I was wrong. Was my judgement a little biased since he is a (fairly distant) relative? Yeah probably.

Coincidentally the Bundys appear to be Mormons if not descended from Mormons.

Still makes their treason stink. [Wink]

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theamazeeaz
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I would love to see that statistic divided out to include other races and see if they also included 1. the income level of the woman and 2. the age of her mother at the birth of her first child.

I don't know if the high number of abortions among African Americans is the result of racism. Getting an abortion is extremely expensive, requires time off from work, and difficult to access (certain states have a single digit number of clinics-- I believe Mississippi has just one), and the stigma surrounding it is so great, that I can't imagine that most people were pressured into having an abortion, who didn't actually want one themselves. Though it might be interesting to have women of a variety of races pose as pregnant women seeking abortion counseling, and tell similar stories and see if there's a difference in suggestions of what to do. (Then again, if white women are consistently pressured into keeping their rapist's baby more so then black women, maybe that isn't a good thing).

Actual teen births (which is not the same as being an unwed mother, or having an abortion, and I realize that one of the big populations of abortion haves are married mothers who can't afford an ADDITIONAL child) among hispanics and blacks are very similar http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-health-topics/reproductive-health/teen-pregnancy/trends.html. In the Old Man Blogs Thread, there was a discussion about how strongly Catholic values would compel hispanics to vote Republican should Republicans make concessions on illegal immigration, and the answer was "not necessarily". But Catholicism probably does reduce the number of hispanic women seeking an abortion.

Poverty has a lot to do with it. Children of teen mothers are more likely to become teen parents themselves, and for children in poor schools with few role models with stimulating careers, teen mother is a concrete thing that high schoolers see their friends doing. African American women are much more likely to live in poverty than their white counterparts.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

The other minority is asian, and the fact that asians are generally wealthier.
This link breaks down pregnancy rate by country of origin, and it's interesting to see that folks from less well off countries have more teen pregnancies.

http://bixbycenter.ucsf.edu/publications/files/Monograph_API_TeenPregFinalReport.pdf

Skimming the document, there were some quotes from the folks involved, and they are also HIGHLY insulted at the welfare programs incentivizing marriage, and a family structure that doesn't work for them.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
you're a distant relative of bundy?

that's actually kinda neat, haha

quote:
Many blame it on "racism" or lack of "equal opportunity," but this doesn't explain why other minorities have vastly lower numbers.
those numbers being? i would like to see what dataset you are using.
I guess it's kind of neat. I've never met the man, but my great-grandmother was a Bundy. I believe Cliven is a son of my great-grandmother's sister. Also interesting: my great-great-grandmother was Native American. I wonder if Cliven could pull the Native American card. He at least has more of a claim to it than Elizabeth Warren [Razz]

That mean I condone his behavior or what he said. I can tell you that my family has been in southern Utah and Nevada for over 150 years, and have farmed here for about that long.

The datasets are all over the internet, on pro-life and pro-choice sites alike. A quick google search on black abortion rates or minority abortion rates will result in dozens of articles. The results in each almost mirror each other.

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Rakeesh
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From a sociological perspective, I am often baffled at the supposed 'contradiction' between the current economic and political statuses of various minorities in the United States. Often this surprise is a pretty transparent, cynical ploy to justify racism. Other times it's genuine, and I should make clear I believe the latter in your case, Geraine.

Now, all of that said, from a sociology and history perspective...which of these minorities started in the United States at literally the lowest possible point, that of not being deemed human at all? I often marvel at how quickly people sometimes expect groups-always groups other than themselves, mind-to overcome enormously powerful historic forces, even though they all but never in history are overcome quickly.

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theamazeeaz
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In that vein, I really recommend "The Warmth of Other Suns", a long, but very good history of the great migration of black people from farming the plantations where their ancestors were enslaved to the cities of the north and west, framed by the stories of three individuals. More so than any school history lesson, it really put in perspective some of the things that black people had to deal with, and explains why certain things are the way they are (ghettos, Trayvon Martin, education funding).
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
The datasets are all over the internet, on pro-life and pro-choice sites alike. A quick google search on black abortion rates or minority abortion rates will result in dozens of articles. The results in each almost mirror each other.

i'm well aware. what i'm asking is what datasets you are using. can you provide them?
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m. bowles
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Oh, man, if we have to have a civil war in the next couple of years, a bunch of right-wing gun nuts shooting each other in an empty wasteland would be just about the best kind.

I doubt it will be like this ^^. It will be more like a bunch of "gun nuts" shooting at powder blue hats.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
When 12% of the population is African American and 36% of all abortions are performed on African-American women, there is a problem.

I agree! I look forward to your ideas on convincing white people to have more abortions [Wink]
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Strider
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
When 12% of the population is African American and 36% of all abortions are performed on African-American women, there is a problem. When the rate of un-wed mothers in the African American community is 72%, there is a problem.

theamazeeaz discussed this, but it'd be useful for you to adjust your numbers for socioeconomic status and see if there is still a large discrepancy between races. If your own defense of differences in "black culture" rest on this data, and the data shows the difference correlates more with income/education than with race, what is your next step? I actually don't know how the numbers will come out, but you really shouldn't be making claims without knowing the relevant statistics. And as theamazeeaz points out, there could be other factors as well that need to be taken into consideration, but this would at least provide a primary adjustment to what are highly uninformative figures.

p.s. - I'll refrain from getting into a discussion regarding what moral failing you see in unwed mothers, so as to stay on target.

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Geraine
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Strider,

There is nothing morally wrong with unwed mothers. The problem is that 41% of children in single parent households live in poverty. That is almost half.

The income disparity? According to a Huffington Post article posted last year, there is actually a higher percentage of whites living in poverty than blacks:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/single-mother-poverty_n_3953047.html

quote:
The number of Americans in poverty remained largely unchanged at a record 46.5 million. Single-mother families in poverty increased for the fourth straight year to 4.1 million, or 41.5 percent, coinciding with longer-term trends of declining marriage and out-of-wedlock births. Many of these mothers are low income with low education. The share of married-couple families in poverty remained unchanged at 2.1 million, or 8.7 percent.

By race or ethnicity, a growing proportion of poor children are Hispanic, a record 37 percent of the total. Whites make up 30 percent, blacks 26 percent.

While education and poverty no doubt play a role, it isn't the only cause. There is a growing "thug" or "hip-hop" culture that affects not only blacks, but other races as well.

I'd like to ask though your personal opinion on a few of questions:

1) Do you believe a 2 parent household is better than a 1 parent household?

2) Do you believe that education and poverty are the only factors that contribute to abortion rates?

3) Do you believe that the "thug" culture contributes to poverty, crime, and the abortion rates?

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Samprimary
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quote:
The income disparity? According to a Huffington Post article posted last year, there is actually a higher percentage of whites living in poverty than blacks
what

that's completely untrue and it doesn't look like what the article is saying at all. the huffpo article is saying that of a total percentage of children in poverty, 30% are white and 26 percent are black.

What that article is saying is that there's a higher total number of white people living in poverty in America than the total number of black people living in poverty in America. Considering that blacks are only somewhere around 12 to 14 percent of the population, wouldn't that make sense?

As per the last census finding in the US, 9.9 percent of white children live in poverty(the lowest figure) and 38.2 percent of black children live in poverty (the highest figure).

That's about one in ten versus well over one in three.

and the primary influencing factor is supposed to .. not be poverty how, I wonder?

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Rakeesh
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I'm not sure how one could look at 'hip-hop culture', or what I imagine is meant by it, and not think poverty was one of the key factors in its evolution. Songs about slinging dope in the project, likely part of what is meant, are...what, they cause inner city drug sales and not the other way around, I guess?

But since you're asking for personal opinions-and I do respect your guts in being willing to speak openly and solicit opinions on such a controversial subject-a question for you in turn: his many hip hop musicians can you name without looking them up?

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Darth_Mauve
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Germaine what would you suggest? Outlawing "Thug" culture? Setting up a government agency to make it illegal for African Americans to listen to, own, or enjoy certain types of music?

Or perhaps we should just ban "Thug Culture" and make sure that all minorities prescribe to the approved successful WASP culture that has proven to be so successful.

Or are you suggesting that we should just give up and not care about those who's own choices have brought them poverty. Let them starve in their own failed culture. Its not for us to care.

Laying blame only does one thing: It frees you up from having to solve the problem.

Blaming a culture is not different than blaming a race. You are just saying, "They may not have been born lazy sinning terrible people--but that is what they all become."

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Rakeesh
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Dude, I think that's an absurd charge to level, Darth.
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Samprimary
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I just want to get back to the actual numbers wrt poverty and race, as well as the addressing of geraine's interpretation/filter for "thug" and "hip-hop" culture — whose presence in "quotes" is admittedly indicative of something culturally closeted, like 'those kids and their "rap music"'
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
Germaine what would you suggest? Outlawing "Thug" culture? Setting up a government agency to make it illegal for African Americans to listen to, own, or enjoy certain types of music?

Or perhaps we should just ban "Thug Culture" and make sure that all minorities prescribe to the approved successful WASP culture that has proven to be so successful.

Or are you suggesting that we should just give up and not care about those who's own choices have brought them poverty. Let them starve in their own failed culture. Its not for us to care.

Laying blame only does one thing: It frees you up from having to solve the problem.

Blaming a culture is not different than blaming a race. You are just saying, "They may not have been born lazy sinning terrible people--but that is what they all become."

Blaming culture has NOTHING to do with race. The culture is permeating into Hispanic and white culture as well. Do you know many whites or Hispanics that have a good, high paying, productive life while prescribing to the thug culture? Yes, there are a few such as M&M and a few other rappers, but as a whole, those that prescribe to that lifestyle tend to live in poverty, use drugs, and break the law.

I have never said that the culture is the only thing keeping blacks (or any race for that matter) down. The thug culture is simply more present in the black community, and as such affects them more.

Over the past 50 years there has been a moral culture shift that has regrettably led to a gigantic rise in single parent households among all races. A higher percentage of those single parent households are black. That's a fact. I'm sure the mothers do their best to do what is right for their kids. We live in a society where it is extremely difficult to provide for a family on one income, and as such single parent families tend to be more prone to living in poverty. Abortion rates, crime rates, etc are all direct results of this.

It has nothing to do with laziness. I've never even mentioned that, and the fact that you would even accuse me of saying that means you aren't actually reading a damn thing I'm typing.

And Sam, the exact numbers don't really matter. They are higher in the black community. There is a consensus on this. Nit-picking over a few percentage points here and there isn't going to change that.

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Samprimary
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quote:
And Sam, the exact numbers don't really matter. They are higher in the black community. There is a consensus on this. Nit-picking over a few percentage points here and there isn't going to change that.
nitpicking over percentage points is one thing, geraine, but calling what I was correcting you on as "nitpicking" is, to be frank, inane. you were taking a piece of data and reading it wholly incorrectly, to the extent of providing the opposite of a real percentage gap. You literally said that data showed that "there is actually a higher percentage of whites living in poverty than blacks" when the data you were providing didn't actually say that and the reality is, by a significant margin, the opposite situation. Responding to being corrected on that as "the exact numbers don't really matter" doesn't help your case, it's dissembling.

it is enough of a habit that I am always sure to ask you to provide your sources and numbers, because you are very frequently in need of clarification and correction in terms of things like socioeconomic data.

quote:
The thug culture is simply more present in the black community, and as such affects them more.
Please explain thug culture completely for us? How do you define it, what are its hallmarks, etc
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Bokonon
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Culture is a collective response to the environment. Sometimes it is created proactively (by the group itself alone), and other times it is re-actively to other cultures', well, cultures.

Saying it is culture is the same as saying race, in this regard... Especially since race, IMO, is largely a cultural construct.


As far as "moral culture shift", I would counter that it was largely a shift in employment status of women that led to a rise in single parent households, which is amoral on the face of it.

That blacks appear to be affected more by this would imply to me, that they had to have more women working, likely due to other cultural an socioeconomic pressures on them in the last 50 years.

In short, I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

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Samprimary
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it is very easy to criticise marginalized groups, ethnic or otherwise, for situations arising largely from a legacy of oppression which continues to be very real and very pervasive in society and law. it's why it's important to dissect this "thug culture" thing that's being touted here. it's an easy thing to do, to point to black culture and say 'see, they're doing it to themselves' when one is stridently ignoring, purposefully or not, the conditions that arose to a particular culture among disaffected, impoverished, neglected people in american innercities. so, yes, carts and horses.
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