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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Thee Germans could have won WWII if only:

   
Author Topic: Thee Germans could have won WWII if only:
Stone_Wolf_
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A. They did not invade Russia.

B. They merely stole from the Jews and then deported them.

4. Made nice nice w/ the UK.

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Jake
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Is this where we talk about current US politics?
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Stone_Wolf_
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HAha!
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NobleHunter
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They didn't declare war on the biggest countries on the planet?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Never get involved in a land war in Asia...and never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
A. They did not invade Russia.

B. They merely stole from the Jews and then deported them.

4. Made nice nice w/ the UK.

1. They would not have been Nazi's, and there likely would not have been a war; or would have lost in 1940.

2. To where? Most nations refused them or refused them visas. By the time of Barbarossa they were in ghettos and the final solution hadn't started yet; While obviously Nazi policies didn't at all help them for Barbarossa (and in fact they liquidated a Lithuanian ghetto that was making them Winter uniforms!) But not having those policies wouldn't have made a difference in the success/failure of Barbarossa.

3. This is the closest chance for a sustainable "Victory" was not invading the USSR and focusing on submarine warfare against England, but again, between Lend-Lease and the US escourting British convoys its likely that the British could have kept going almost indefinitely as long as a significant peace faction did not materialize in parliament.

But again, if Hitler and the Nazi regime were rational they wouldn't have been Nazi's and there is no way that Hitler doesn't eventually invade the Soviet Union.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I think had they secured their new boarders, Poland, France, Austria etc, i.e. pre Normandy, and stayed out of Russia they could have sat back and played colonial off continent indefinitely.

Where would the Jews go? Like invade Yugoslavia and then march the Jews across the boarder and then retreat and lock down the boarder. Idk

Why was the invasion of Russia inevitable? I guess I'm just not that big a fan of tundra

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NobleHunter
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1. This brings to mind that there's an author I follow who has reviewed books on Nazi Germany under the tag "Nazis: evil *and* crazy."
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Stone_Wolf_
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The point of not killing the Jews, btw, (politically, not for OBVIOUS reasons) was the amount of outrage it generated...easier to keep the us out I would think
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Elison R. Salazar
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I guess you've never read Mein Kampf.

Basically Nazi Ideology in it's momentum stupidity and amateur hour understanding of anthropology was a Racially focused variation of Italian Fascism; there is a lot of discussion as to whether it's own unique brand of authoritarianism or an evolution of Corporatism but you need to have a solid understanding of what makes Fascism different from Socialism and how Racial thought processes fit in to Nazism specifically.

Found an interesting blog, but specifically fascism

Basically, the entire ideology and reason of being for Nazi Ideology is the need to safe guard the racial purity of the German Volk against the taint of inferior races; and to safe guard their future by seeking "living space" so that the population of pure Germans can continue to grow.

Basically, this idea was so paramount and important that it was the whole and entire core of their ideology and world view, conflict was inevitable, the war was coming and it was always better to strike first while they had the upper hand before the international jewish conspiracy can undermine the PEOPLE.

Hitler's obsessions were overwhelming, ever present, and all consuming. His drive and will to power was predicated on carrying out his will.

Basically a Hitler rational enough to not invade the Soviet Union wouldn't have had the drive and combination of personality quirks to enable him to take over Germany and go to war with the Allies over Poland. They are intrinsically linked.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Nope, never read it...after the massive land grab, it seems like the thing to do is normalize and fortify the gains you made in Europe, set up a steady production base and then kiss European ass while meanwhile engaging in further land grabery in Africa or S.Am

I get that Hitler was squirle crap nutty and all, but CLEARLY this is a what if discussion and as such making Afolf less nutsy coo coo just HAS to be on the table for us to be even discussing it...maybe Himler took over...or a strike team from the future replaces flesh and blood Hitler w a robot, idk

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Elison R. Salazar
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The lands they took in Europe had people already living in them, and would not sufficiently provide LIVING SPACE to ze Aryans.

What if's are stupid wastes of time if they aren't based on reality or a willingness to accept why they aren't; like the question "Could the Japanese have won Midway?" is interesting up to the point that you'd have to research the history of the IJN, their dysfunctional interservice rivalry with the IJA, the effects of militerism and Bushido honor on training and retainment of crew; etc to find out "Oh, no, there's almost virtually no way they can win unless they weren't the Imperial Japanese Empire."

Like, the steps of learning absolutely everything there is to learn, the why of it; that's all interesting; like read Shattered Sword etc.

Like at best "Okay, maybe if Nagumo decided differently (unlikely) they might have won at Midway" could and should only answered by "But then they likely would have had a catastrophic defeat elsewhere eventually as an inevitable manner of time."

So same with the Germans; it's impossible with the Nazi regime as is to avoid invading the Soviet Union; Hitler was already deciding on it before the Battle of Britain was even over.

The only way such a what if makes sense is if they weren't Nazi's; they entirely lacked the necessary rationality for any other result.

The entire ideology depended on acquiring living space, and depriving subhumans of theirs; which was only in the East; not in the West; and especially the Soviet Union since they were a clear and present dancer pointed at the heart of the Reich.

The Germans were doomed to lose the moment they invaded the USSR; and if they had waited then there moment of opportunity will have passed; and will be a matter of if/when the Nazi's decide to stick their dicks into that hornets nest.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
clear and present dancer
This is the best thing you have ever said.
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Elison R. Salazar
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I'm sure I've said better.

Like, I thought I was wrong once.

But I was mistaken.

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