posted
Okay, we've probably heard them all--from shapeshifting to telepathy to alchemy--does anybody have a favorite, or new or more interesting way to use magic. How about magic's cost? Magic is seldom interesting unless it costs the spellcaster something. I know Uncle Orsy has touched on this subject, but let's hear from you.
Posts: 604 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I think my favorite use of magic in fantasy is in Dianna Wynn Jones' book "Howl's Moving Castle." She has a few characters that use the powders, magic words, etc., but her main character, Sophie, "talks" things to life. For instance, she is a hat maker, and being lonely while sewing and trimming hats, she starts to talk to them. She tells them what kinds of people should buy them, and what might happen to them. Much to her surprise, the things she tells the hats starts to come true.
I guess the cost for her, was that a powerful witch didn't like the "competition" and put a powerful spell on her.
Anyway, I like the simplicity of Sophie's gift of magic, and how it surprised her, and she didn't even realize she had those kinds of abilities.
posted
I'm huge on the cost of magic. IMO, that's the way to make a tale of fantasy interesting and fresh. A lot of fantasy glosses over the price -- it's more about power and wish fulfillment. I guess you can have fun with that for a while but you can really bring depth into a story by having the character struggle with something. In fact, that's the cornerstone of my published novel, "Touch of Fate." It's not that someone can predict the future -- done to death -- it's that she can't change the futures she predicts and this fact takes a terrible toll on her sense of freedom and control. It makes it a character-rich story, even though other things are happening.
posted
I use a pretty standard aproach in most of my wizard-related stories. Theres usually an element of fatigue involved. Also, although I dont delineate it, I usually write with the idea that things like words, gestures, materials, objects etc can be a "cost" of sorts. That some actions or spells can essentially be made to take less toll by incorporating these aspects. Some things require them.
I see magic as very natural and basic so I dont usuall go in for the "magic sucks your soul" or that kind of thing. Or if I do, its intent based, sort of like with the Force in Star Wars. Using magic with evil intent is usually more taxing and dangerous since your twisting it against its own nature.
posted
I actually really liked the OSC 'knack' kind of magic. I never have read the Ender's series, but I stumbled on the Alvin Maker stories by accident, and really enjoyed them. I like the subtle flow, where things start out just about normal, and then slowly diverge, tugging the reader (and the reader's sense of disbelief) along with them, until all of a sudden you're in a totally new universe and have accepted seven improbable things before breakfast, without even realizing it.
I didn't care too much for the Historian, but it rather worked the same way, on some levels, very slowly seducing the reader in to a world where Dracula could really exist. Anyone else get that feeling from it?
[This message has been edited by debhoag (edited August 09, 2008).]
posted
The practitioners I've known who have experienced magical events all have a price they've attributed to good magic gone wrong. For most, the damage centers around the wrists; any of the assorted arthritis diseases, Carpal tunnel syndrome, sprains, or compart injuries, one gangrene, but that might have started from another affliction. I don't dare touch any crystals of any kind for fear of bad mojo. I'm not so fortunate around metals either, other than iron, steel, copper, brass, bronze, and nickle. No silver, gold, platinum, pewter, or lead for me.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
One thing I've been toying with recently has been elemental magic. (based on the four classic elements.) The trouble with using one element is you make the other elements mad at you. (I haven't decided if it's because they resent not being used or that they don't like the other element and fight against it and you who have identified with it.) For instance if you use earth then the air will fight against you.
Now though I realize that OSC did that in the Alvin Maker series. My spin on it wouldn't be like his though.
Another thought I had was illusionary magic, which is limited by your ability to convince other people that magic is actually happening. (Which is a bit like writing a story, really.)
The last one (of the one that I promised) I've been stewing on since a thousand ideas exercise we did her a while ago. The cost of magic is money. You have to pay to use it.
posted
A few things work together when creating good fantasy. A price for magic can create a good tale and I think that there at least need to be some limitations. The standard D&D fatigue, knowledge, experience, etc. can work out although it is often not well portrayed. As a reader, I can understand a character getting out of breath from running a marathon. But from waving his arms and shouting words? Not so much. You have to work harder to convince me. Also, when knowledge and learning is key to a magical system, it is difficult to help the readers understand what is at stake. Maybe a wizard spent 20 years learning to teleport himself but you've got to convince me it's 20 years worth of hard in 2 pages and you have to convince me that not just anyone can do it.
I thought of a couple of examples. As much as I loved the Harry Potter series, I never really "got" the magic. It seemed a little random and the magic behind the one or two-word spells was never clearly defined. Why not just fling around killing curses in a duel, if they can't be blocked? Certainly, this is an example of a system in which years of learning make the best wizards but despite the fact that it all took place in a school where such learning took place, I never really understood what Harry was learning or what made it difficult when he had trouble.
On the flipside, I've just finished reading a series (at least, all the books that have been written in the series so far) by Jim Butcher -- also about a wizard named Harry. (The Dresden Files -- it had a brief run on the scifi channel but the books are much better.) It also has fatigue and learning as some of the limitations on magic (although the system is far more complex, well constructed, and refreshingly internally consistent...I'll gripe more about internal consistency later.) Anyway, I'm buying it in these books. I'll be honest -- the writing style in these books isn't brilliant but the story is good and keeps me reading. The more I think about why, the more I realize it's because of little things like an author finally pulling off a complex magic system from the POV of the wizard without confusing me or oversimplifying it. I believe it (suspended disbelief) and its limitations.
And since I brought it up, let me just say this: there is nothing so important in fantasy as internal consistency. This will make or break a story for me. I can't stand it when an author makes up a rule, decides later it was inconvenient, and breaks it.
An interesting price makes for a good story, but it's not the only thing that does. Basic principles, well thought out, well portrayed, and consistent, can also be spun into a good fantasy tale. But then, usually, the story isn't about the magic...the magic becomes a tool to achieve an end.
posted
When I drive to and from work, I often like to plug the iPod in and listen to a podcast. A few weeks back, I listened to Brandon Sanderson and team speak on Excuses Episode 15: Costs and Ramifications of Magic".
I certainly expect a cost, but more importantly, there needs to be a defined set of rules.
Only a fifteen min. segment, so worth a listen...
[This message has been edited by psnede (edited August 10, 2008).]
posted
In Harry Potter, I can't think of any real cost associated with magic--off the top of my head--yet, I would argue it worked pretty well.
Posts: 2195 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:I thought of a couple of examples. As much as I loved the Harry Potter series, I never really "got" the magic. It seemed a little random and the magic behind the one or two-word spells was never clearly defined. Why not just fling around killing curses in a duel, if they can't be blocked? Certainly, this is an example of a system in which years of learning make the best wizards but despite the fact that it all took place in a school where such learning took place, I never really understood what Harry was learning or what made it difficult when he had trouble.
This is a symptom of Rowling being truthfully a mystery writer who is writing in a fantasy setting. I dont think she really "gets" the magic either...its just window dressing and plot devices for her. So there are inconsistencies, and yes we dont really know much about how and why the magic works etc.
quote:A few things work together when creating good fantasy. A price for magic can create a good tale and I think that there at least need to be some limitations. The standard D&D fatigue, knowledge, experience, etc. can work out although it is often not well portrayed. As a reader, I can understand a character getting out of breath from running a marathon. But from waving his arms and shouting words? Not so much.
Its not so much about running out of breath, as in just running out. In real life there are things that are, for lack of a better term, mentally tiring while not that physically difficult.
Also, theres the concept that the channeling of the forces involved takes a toll on the person, or that in at least some cases, the power is coming from within them. It may even be basically the same force that powers the body, such as the soul etc.
posted
The Obsidian Trilogy, by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, did a nice job of magic. There were four types of magic, while each had a different cost to use. The high magic used personal and borrowed/stolen energy, while wild magic used more of a divine energy that required some act as a part of the price. This usually involved something that would have some benefit to "a greater good" in the long run. That made the wild magic most interesting because it made the caster think before casting a spell, since the cost could be anything. The other two were demon magic, which was fulled by pain and suffering. The more innocent and pure the victim the more power could be gained. The last was dragon magic, which required a bonding to a dragon to work.
It had some interesting view on how magic cost, and that no one could find a way to negate that cost...even when someone tried.
posted
I had one story where the main spell-caster would lose about a months worth of memories every time she cast a spell. I was going to play with the idea of her risking bits and pieces of her life every time she used her abilities, but I never fleshed the idea out.
Posts: 487 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I like to use magic that is commonly presented as real in our every day world. Who needs to make stuff up when you can utilize such phenomena as astral travel, levitation, faith healing, etc. By basing my magic on "real life" it makes it more plausible to the reader...
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