quote:I'm putting mine up without a log line. I want to see if the first chapter gives enough information that the reader knows what is happening.
I'm considering the same move. The opening scene I'm submitting is from the third story in a series. This (if I go through with omitting a log line or synopsis) will be my way of determining how much assumption seeps into the opening scenes that come after the detailed descriptions and settings of the first (or second) story in the series. This is one of the reasons I picked this story. Should be an interesting learning experience.
posted
Well, about the logline, I'm not sure it's here or there with respect to the goal of the contest:
quote:Vote for the chapter that would most make you want to read on.
If the reader can't figure out whether he wants to read on from the first 3000 words, a logline isn't going to change things. It's a fair bet that *everybody* who will read your manuscript will have read at least the equivalent of a log-line and probably a short blurb or query letter.
Personally, I think that that a logline and query should be part of this exercise if we are playing the part of agent when we read (in which case the third novel in a trilogy would be a tall order to sell). If we are playing readers when we do this, we should have a logline and snappy back cover blurb. If we are playing writers in your critique group, a brief explanation of what your manuscript is trying to do is in order.
Or you could just provide the chapter and leave it at that, but even so I don't think it's reasonable to use judges in this contest as guinea pigs.
This should be a test of skill at opening a story, which is hard enough without complicating things. If you turn in something to find out whether it's incomprehensible, you're wasting our time if it *is* incomprehensible. I for one have critiqued enough incomprehensible manuscripts. If the author needs help, I don't mind. I wouldn't even mind if you sent me the manuscript explicitly for that purpose. But slipping a manuscript that you suspect is incomprehensible into a pile I'm committed to read is something I *would* mind you doing. I want to read your *best effort*.
Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Not doing a logline here either. I have done the query challenge, the elevator pitch. Now I want to see what my chapter does on its own.
Posts: 1168 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Not doing a logline here either. I have done the query challenge, the elevator pitch. Now I want to see my chapter does on its own.
That's OK by me, as long as you expect the chapter to stand on its own. If there's any reason apart from writing quality that the chapter might not stand alone (e.g. if the book is in the middle of a series), then I think it's inconsiderate to dump the chapter on readers without some background information.
Personally, I'd prefer a logline and some story background with every submission.
What a first chapter has to do is launch the story. That obviously includes making the reader want to read *on*. What it doesn't have to do is make the reader want to read the story in the first place. That's done outside the first chapter, in a query letter or a cover blurb. Omitting that information won't get you a more accurate read on the quality of your first chapter, it will get you a *less* accurate response because readers will have to guess how they were sold on reading this book in the first place.
But if you're determined to make me figure out what you're up to, I'll do my best to guess and evaluate your piece accordingly. Likewise if you don't want that information from me, I'll hold it back and let you do the same.
Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
I guess what i dont want to do is have to read a 2-page synopsis with every chapter. I'll be the first to admit I havent read every line on this post, but I fear that is what it was heading for. As far as a logline, I dont mind a quick paragraph of what the story is about, might help, but I feel it should be limited.
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posted
All right. We'll make it similar to a query or a back-cover blurb. No more than 300 words max.
Posts: 4633 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Tiergan -- I absolutely agree that a full synopsis would be a bad idea. We don't want people judging the synopsis rather than the chapter. A one or two paragraph orientation is exactly what I had in mind.
Meredith -- this sounds like a good plan. Just remind people not to judge the blurb.
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posted
Personally, I can't help but judge writing by all the information I have available. If someone gives me a synopsis, I don't read it first.
I read the chapter, write preliminary notes, then read the synopsis and see how my first impressions stack up.
Otherwise, I know I will have assumptions and preconceived notions of the story and won't be able to give a true assessment of how the writing stands on its own.
Just my two cents.
Posts: 266 | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Since we are going to have to spit into groups anyway, could we have a group who are first chapter only, and a group that is chapter/logline?
Posts: 1201 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
I was thinking of just giving a two to five sentence synopses to the other two chapters. To give an idea of where it's going.
Something like "she reads a logline of the book and jumps up and down because it gave away too much. She hits her head and sees stars because she missed the part about the low ceiling." Only shorter.
Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by shimiqua: Since we are going to have to spit into groups anyway, could we have a group who are first chapter only, and a group that is chapter/logline?
Since I'm announcing the groups very soon, I doubt that's practical. Those who want to include a logline will, clearly differentiated from the chapter, and readers will use it or not as they see fit.
Posts: 4633 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
It seems everyone has different interpretations of the terms in my original question. Here's what I meant.
Logline - A single sentence that summarizes a major conflict in the novel. May also be thought of as the blurb commonly found on book covers or ads.
Really brief summary - A paragraph that summarizes a major conflict in the novel. May also be thought of as the novel's elevator pitch.
I intend to provide a single sentence, which several of you have already seen elsewhere on this site, and I would prefer to see a sentence-long summary for each first chapter.
If someone provides no summary, then no worries on my part. I'd still like to know what kind of critique that someone wants.
If anyone sends me an entire page worth of summary, I'm going to read the first paragraph (or first few lines) and skip over the rest to read the chapter. I'll base my vote on that. I will then write my critique based on anything and everything that's given, provided I have enough time.
Posts: 1139 | Registered: May 2008
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posted
By the way, almost every reader has a preconceived notion of a novel before reading the first chapter.
For my part, I'm providing a logline so y'all understand that the story is science fiction. Like much spec fic that takes place on modern-day Earth, the speculative elements don't appear until after the first chapter. The goal of my first chapter is to introduce the two main characters, one of the main antagonists, the primary setting, and some of the themes.
Would a logline be necessary? Maybe not. But agents, editors, and random readers would have an idea of the main plot. Would they still want to read on after the first chapter? That's my question and the reason I'm entering this challenge. And that's why, with Meredith's permission, I'll be providing a logline.
Vote however you desire. I'm more interested in the critiques than in how I place. (Wow, is that a change in me?) Skip over my logline if you want to, and forget that you've ever seen it on Hatrack if you can. Just know that if you complain about the lack of spec elements in my entry, I'm going to assume you didn't take your role seriously. I've done what I could to be clear about what type of story it's opening into.
Posts: 1139 | Registered: May 2008
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I am sending my whole book. And you will read it. And you will like it. And...
I am really bored at work, and have too much work to do to be reading the forum, but my brain is fried and it is only Thursday.
Meredith, thanks for doing this. The first chapter is oh so important. I am up for a little short blurb, just dont want to read 2 pages synopsis Posts: 1168 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Well, I'll put the logline and on paragraph story summary at the back of the chapter, so anyone who *doesn't* want to read them won't be forced to.
Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
MattLeo, I think you have a good idea. Then the reader can have the option. Also, consider a sentence at the top of the manuscript: "Logline/summary at end of document".
Just a thought.
I probably won't put anything, but at most a single sentence.
Posts: 1993 | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
Sure. The point is to be considerate of the judges' time. If a judge feels his time is spent better without a logline and a 1-2 paragraph summary, don't force them on him. On the other hand, if your story might mystify a judge, don't waste his time making him scratch is head.
Posts: 1459 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Criminy sakes! All of this bother about an introductory sentence? Now if there was a summary or a synopsis, I can see that.
I'll be putting a little blurb that follows the title in mine. It takes about two or three seconds to read (five, if you sound it out aloud)and then let you plunge into my chapter.
Group 1: Meredith, SEVEN STARS, YA Fantasy wirelesslibrarian, EXPIRATION DATE, MG Fantasy RoxyL, MOTHER OF PEARL, YA Fantasy Natej11, CORSAIRS, YA Fantasy RoxanneCrouse, SAVING AVALON, YA Fantasy Shimiqua, FUNNY TRAGIC, CRAZY MAGIC, YA Urban Fantasy Crank, ORACLE OF SENTRY RIDGE, YA
Group 2: Owasm, The Reluctant Mage, YA Fantasy LDWriter2, STONE WITHIN, Urban Fantasy genevive42, FORGED WITH FIRE AND STEEL, Fantasy Tiergan, KNIGHTS VALOR, Fantasy Crash, LAST DAYS OF FUSPMAR, Fantasy MAP, BONDED, Fantasy
Group 3: MartinV, Clockworks Warrior, Steampunk Fantasy TempestDash, NEWTON'S CROSSING, Space Opera MattLeo, THE KEYSTONE, Space Opera/Romantic Comedy rcmann, THE PATTERNS OF CHAOS, Sci-Fi/Fantasy aspirit, REFLECTIONS IN THE NIGHT, YA Romantic Sci-Fi RobED, SHATTERED EMPIRE, SCI-FI/Fantasy
I did my best to put like things together for the first round.
Owasm, I put you in group 2 because we've both already read each others' first chapter. This gives us the best chance of fresh input.
Martin, steampunk is generally sort of between fantasy and science fiction and the science fiction group was the smallest.
posted
Forgive my naivete, but we should just look at each member in our group's profiles and e-mail our chapters directly, correct?
Posts: 52 | Registered: Mar 2010
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posted
MAP, scroll up to the top of the page (any page on the forum). Look for these links:
Post New Topic Post A Reply my profile | search | faq | forum home
Click on "my profile". Click on "Edit Profile". Enter your e-mail address in the appropriate field. Then click the "Update Profile" button at the bottom of the page.
You might want to remove your e-mail address from your post after updating your profile. It seems that spammers are more likely to grab addresses from discussions than from the Hatrack profiles. (By the way, I think I haven't ever received spam because of my profile.)
Posts: 1139 | Registered: May 2008
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posted
On the Edit Profile page under the Email Address heading, there are also a couple of "radio buttons" that let you indicate whether your email address is visible to people.
If the radio button that says "No, hide my address and do not allow members to mail me" is the one activated, your email address won't show on your posts, even if it is in your profile.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
I'll be sending my chapter out tomorrow. Have a few tweaks to apply and never could find a spare minute today.
Posts: 108 | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Thought I posted this already, I hope it wasn't on some thread in another forum here.
Anyway, I sent my chapter tonight and earlier I received four. Reading, doing the very simple comments people want and voting may take a week or two but I have all month I believe. Plus I need to wait for one more.
Posts: 5289 | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by RobED: Any chance, if everyone gets their stuff in earlier, if the timeline would move forward?
Just judging by the chapters I received, I don't think I'm going to need an entire month.
We'll see. The full novel I was expecting to have for critique this month has been delayed. So, maybe. That's all I'm going to say.
Posts: 4633 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Group 3 is waiting for a revised chapter from rcmann.
RobED, if we finish early, then we could work on critiques from Feedback or other areas until the the second round. Meredith said she'll need the full month.
Posts: 1139 | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Go ahead without me. Just dump the one I sent before.
The last few days worth of storms have been hitting pretty hard in my family's area. The latest one flattened my wife's home town. I mean, devastated it. No one in the family died, but several neighbors that we knew did get killed. Many more are still missing and being searched for in the rubble. At the moment I am in no frame of mind to do an effective crit on anything.
Sorry for this. I'll try to make it up somehow in the future.
Posts: 884 | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
I didn't receive anything from rcmann. Am I correct in understanding you won't be submitting and that group 3 only has five members now?
Posts: 24 | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
rcmann, please don't worry about us. Of course your thoughts would be with your family and old friends.
RobED, rcmann sent three e-mails to the rest of Group 3, but for some reason or another, your e-mail wasn't included. In his last e-mail, he stated that he's withdrawing from the challenge, so there's only five of us.
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