"Yeah, Cameron?" Kyle looked down at the shorter boy who was holding his hand and staring out toward one of the few gutted buildings still standing in what remained of the city. Kyle couldn't help a little grin. When he smiled, he was always surprised that he could still do it.

"Kyle? Kyle!" Cameron continued to ask.

"Yeah, Cameron?" Kyle repeated.

"I want a milkshake."

"Sure thing, Cameron. We just need to find a restaurant. That's just a pet store."

"That's just a pet store," Cameron repeated, parroting the exact vocal intonation Kyle had used.

"Yup. C'mon, Camtron," Kyle said, fondly. He was also acutely aware that Cameron was probablhy as hungry as he was, though Kyle wanted a lot more than a milkshake.

"Hey, Kyle. There's a Big Plane coming."

Kyle felt his heartbeat quicken so fast he got a little lightheaded. "Let's move, Cam."

One good thing is that you have plenty of room here for conflict, which is ideal for hooking a reader. The bad thing is that you've not really given us any yet.

First things first: There are far too many Cameron's and Kyles in this. In real life, we don't typically repeat someone's name in every sentence. You're dialogue would work better if you cut out almost all the names from it. But, I personally feel you could cut out nearly all of the dialogue and help your story.

Second things second: There's an odd feeling of contradiction (which may be your intent, but if it isn't...) with gutted buildings and restaurants and pet shops and hunger. It's not clear if they "used to be" or "still are" these things. You're telling us there are remains of a city, but there are still pet shops? If a city was mostly destroyed, I doubt a pet shop would be high on the priority list of things to keep open.

Third thing: Where you've written "shorter boy" implies there are more boys around than just Cam and Kyle. Are there? If not, you'll need to fix that.

Fourth thing: Okay, the kids are hungry. Why? Don't hold back on this information it needs to be said right off of the bat.

Fifth thing: Far too many "he's" in this sentence: "When he smiled, he was always surprised that he could still do it." If you joined the previous sentence with this it might work better. Play around with it, see what you come up with.

If I were writing this story, I'd probably start by mentioning the milkshake first and then making it clear that milkshakes were impossible to get (if that is the case) by talking about the city and introducing the smaller kid.

Example (I need a last name, so I'll just throw one in):

As Cameron Jones stared at the gutted buildings in what remained of the city, only one word came to his mind: Milkshake. He would give his left arm for one if only the little runt beside him didn't already have a death grip on it.

Cameron looked down at the boy...

***

And so on...

Starting a story with mostly dialogue is always a gamble. Think carefully about how you start your story.

Hope you don't mind nitpicky comments as I tend to gravitate toward them.

~~"Kyle? Kyle!" Cameron continued to ask.~~

As there's no one but them two around, I suggest removing "Cameron continued to ask." Saves on words and isn't really necessary to understand the line.

~~"Sure thing, Cameron.~~

I suggest deleting the name here. It's clear who the characters are talking to, and he's not being cute here like he is with "Camtron".

You might even be able to delete these lines: ~~"Kyle? Kyle!" Cameron continued to ask.~~ and ~~"Yeah, Cameron?" Kyle repeated.~~ without losing anything.

Besides those couple of nits, it's a little sparse from Kyle's pov. What was he doing before Cameron kept calling for him, frex? I suspect he is the one who is most aware of his surroundings if he's the protector of the two, so that might be a way to sneak in more description than just what Cameron sees and a hint of what Cameron looks like. Also, I wondered why Cameron sensed the plane first; does he have a special talent that Kyle doesn't have?

~~"That's just a pet store," Cameron repeated, parroting the exact vocal intonation Kyle had used.~~

I liked that line :-)

Anyway, it sounds like a story set in a war or one that's almost post-apocalypse, the latter of which is one of my favorite kind of stories.

>Be careful what you ask for...

I wasn't sure if this was meant to suggest you deeply disliked the material, as in "Be careful what you ask for because I'm going to let your work HAVE it now that you've opened the door for me." If you did deeply dislike it, that's obviously OK and fair, but your comments were even-handed, which suggests to me you didn't just abhor it as the worst writing ever seen. That you replied at all suggest you didn't feel that way. I simply wondered if I was supposed to infer dislike from that or not...

>First things first: There are far too many >Cameron's and Kyles in this. In real life, >we don't typically repeat someone's name in >every sentence. You're dialogue would work >better if you cut out almost all the names >from it. But, I personally feel you could >cut out nearly all of the dialogue and help >your story.

A rule of thumb for me in writing is "If the characters don't know it, and it doesn't come through their senses, the audience shouldn't know it" if it's a story from the POV of the characters. In other words, if the main character doesn't know the thing in front of him is a military tank, then as far as he's concerned it's just a "long, wide metal machine with a long pipe sticking out of the front and big wheels inside rolling flaps of metal." Likewise, if a character doesn't call someone else by name, then the audience doesn't know who that person is until someone says that name, just as if the story were being told cinematically. "The man in black walked up to the counter. 'How are you today, Mr. Roberson?' asked a wire-thin, old shopkeeper in a green smock. 'Doing fine,' Mr. Roberson replied. 'Do you have any rutabegas?'" It's an individual technique, but I can understand how it might be off-putting. Going by that idea, would your suggestions still hold? If I take out the Kyle and Camerons, then it has to just be two boys walking along the ruined landscape, which I can do. You think that works better?

As for the name repetition, my goal was to immediately suggest Kyle as aware of his surroundings as a person and Cameron as being quite autistic, hence his repetition of Kyle's name over and over until he got the other boy's full attention and the repetition of the "pet store" line in parrot-speak.

>Second things second: There's an odd feeling >of contradiction (which may be your intent, >but if it isn't...) with gutted buildings >and restaurants and pet shops and hunger.

I am going for a bit of contradiction. As this paragraph goes further, it expands out and you learn a little more: that there aren't any restaurants any more, that the buildings are all empty and the pet store is full of dead animals who've starved in the cages, that there's no milkshake to be found because there's no milk in storage, nor electricity to keep milk fresh, that all the buildings are deeply looted, that Cameron is autistic and that Kyle is trying to keep him away from other people as much as possible.

>It's not clear if they "used to be" or >"still are" these things. You're telling us >there are remains of a city, but there are >still pet shops?

The suggestion I was trying to get across was that Kyle was referring to the building as a pet shop because it's a little rough to say to Cameron, "That's a pet shop. Well, it used to be a pet-shop, but the thing is, all the animals inside are dead. We could eat them but the meat is probably rotten by now."

>If a city was mostly destroyed, I doubt a >pet shop would be high on the priority list >of things to keep open.

That brings up another point. I'm trying to suggest also that the buildings have been ruined, but not by a war. They've been looted and wrecked, firebombed and things like that, but many are intact that contain things of little value (like a pet shop), so the pet shop building might look to Cameron more like a regular building.

>Third thing: Where you've written "shorter >boy" implies there are more boys around than >just Cam and Kyle. Are there? If not, you'll >need to fix that.

I thought it would imply that Cameron was shorter (and therfore younger) than his brother Kyle.

>Fourth thing: Okay, the kids are hungry. >Why? Don't hold back on this information it >needs to be said right off of the bat.

I'd be unsure how to include that, since it would be really tough to get in without making it expository. I also certainly DON'T want to make Cameron stereotypically autistic in the sense that I refuse to make him say something like "Actually, it's been 12 hours, 45 minutes... and... 13 seconds since we ate anything." Brrrrr.

>Fifth thing: Far too many "he's" in this >sentence: "When he smiled, he was always >surprised that he could still do it." If you >joined the previous sentence with this it >might work better. Play around with it, see >what you come up with.

This, I will examine in due regard.

>If I were writing this story, I'd probably >start by mentioning the milkshake first and >then making it clear that milkshakes were >impossible to get (if that is the case) by >talking about the city and introducing the >smaller kid.

Milkshakes are impossible to get, but Cameron loves them and Kyle doesn't have the heart to tell him he'll never get another milkhake, ever for probably the rest of his probably very brief life. That was my goal.

>Starting a story with mostly dialogue is >always a gamble. Think carefully about how >you start your story.

I did put a great deal of thought into that opening, as well a the rest of the material. Was your implication to suggest it was careless or clumsy? If so, again, no offense taken and it's OK, but I was unsure what you meant here.

>Hope you don't mind nitpicky comments as I >tend to gravitate toward them.

Not at all. Thank you, in fact. The more detailed response is what I'm looking for here in the first place.

>As there's no one but them two around, I >suggest removing "Cameron continued to ask." >Saves on words and isn't really necessary to >understand the line.

I thought about that.

>~~"Sure thing, Cameron.~~ I suggest >deleting the name here. It's clear who the >characters are talking to, and he's not >being cute here like he is with "Camtron".

"Sure thing, Cameron," is actually meant to be something Kyle will say again and again as a calming mechanism for his brother. One of the things autistics tend to do is respond well to certain positive output from others that's repetition. It gets a response. So, for Kyle, "Sure thing, Cameron, sure thing" is something the other boy understands, that Kyle got his output and is responding to it. Just saying "Yes," or "OK" isn't enough. Cameron will keep asking if you just say "Yes" or "OK." You perhaps didn't HEAR what he WANTED.

>Besides those couple of nits, it's a little >sparse from Kyle's pov. What was he doing >before Cameron kept calling for him, frex?

The two were walking along a street in a wrecked part of the city.

>I suspect he is the one who is most aware of >his surroundings if he's the protector of >the two, so that might be a way to sneak in >more description than just what Cameron sees >and a hint of what Cameron looks like.

That's in the next paragraph. I could only include 13 lines, right?

>Also, I wondered why Cameron sensed the >plane first; does he have a special talent >that Kyle doesn't have?

I ran into a question there. Cameron can tell when the "Big Planes" (they're not planes) are coming, Kyle knows it and Kyle freaks out and starts to drag Cameron along until they get into hiding and the BP passes over them without seeing them in the wreckage, in the next couple of paragraphs. We get a description of Kyle at that point because he's facedown near some water.

>Anyway, it sounds like a story set in a war >or one that's almost post-apocalypse, the >latter of which is one of my favorite kind >of stories.

Oh, it's definitely post-apocalypse, though I hope I've come up with an original apocalypse using familiar themes.

Yet, why not just tell all of this stuff first off? Especially the kid being autistic if anything--there's no point in letting us guess he is.

If you say the kid is autistic right away, then his particular idioms and repetition would be far less annoying and we will actually become more sympathetic -- which is probably what you want. But even still, you don't even have to use dialogue to cover it every time--be clever, find another way to do it.

And the same goes with his brother, tell us it's a calming thing so we don't get pissed off reading the same dialogue in the first 30 seconds of reading your story.

And while we are at it, why not just say their brothers from the get-go? Why say the shorter kid? He knows it's his brother, right? So tell us.

I actually didn't think you did hate it. I just wasn't sure if you were trying to say you did. I actually meant it when I said I was just asking. I realized that it might've sounded hostile, but trust me, the best thing I could've seen in this critique would be an utter savaging of my work, because it's only through that savaging that we learn. I just meant that I was hoping, too, to get impressions. Yours was annoyance (?) more than anything else, with the story and the characters. That answered it. If you'd hated it, that'd be valuable feedback and valueable input. That's what I meant.

>You very well could have a clever idea here. >Do I think your story needs a better start? >Yes. But again, just my opinion. Please do >not make any inferences from what I'm >saying... just read the words and know that >is exactly what I meant as I wrote them. No >hidden meanings -- just face value.

quote:

---

"Kyle? Hey, Kyle?"
"Yeah, Cameron?" [SPACE HERE ADDED]

Kyle looked down at the shorter boy who was holding his hand and staring out toward one of the few gutted buildings still standing in what remained of the city. [Long sentences like this I can't stand. To be honest, my reflex is to skip them. Which of course is stupid when they are essential to the story as this one is. Whatever.]Kyle couldn't help a little grin [Why can't he help the little grin? What is the little grin? Where does the little grin go in the rest of the narrative?]. When he smiled, he was always surprised that he could still do it. [This may work for some to set a fearful, tense mood. For me, however, it didn't -- because the rest of the text doesn't support it.]

"Kyle? Kyle!" Cameron continued to ask.

"Yeah, Cameron?" Kyle repeated.

"I want a milkshake."

"Sure thing, Cameron. We just need to find a restaurant. That's just a pet store."

"That's just a pet store," Cameron repeated, parroting the exact vocal intonation Kyle had used. [What does this mean?]

"Yup. C'mon, Camtron," Kyle said, fondly. He was also acutely aware that Cameron was probablhy as hungry as he was, though Kyle wanted a lot more than a milkshake. [The meaning is expressed unclearly. What does the "though" modify? *two seconds later* Ah, I see. It is, however, unclear.]

"Hey, Kyle. There's a Big Plane coming." [Huh? Another confusing aspect.]

Kyle felt his heartbeat quicken so fast he got a little lightheaded. "Let's move, Cam."

---

First thought when finished reading this segment: What the fish is going on here?

Why? Because none of this makes much sense.

a) We have an endless barage of names
b) We have a vague setting (though it is a little explained)
c) We have a lot of things going on in the conversation.

Second thought:

This work has a lot of potential, but needs to be much clearer to let the inner strength of the idea shine through. Good luck!

"Yeah, little bro? What'cha got?" Kyle asked as the younger boy holding his hand came to a stop outside a ruined storefront. Beyond the glassless window, skeletons of dead dogs lay still in long-untended cages. "What'cha got, Cameron?" he prodded again, gently. "Something in there we should know about?" He knew that trying to drag his brother away wouldn't do any good. "Are you having trouble?"

"I want a milkshake," Cameron said, keeping his eyes focused on the dead dogs, shaking a little, his hands clenching together. His face, however, displayed no visible emotion.

Kyle bit his lip, hard. The image of the dogs in their cages had clearly upset his brother, and this was definitely not the place for Cameron to have a meltdown. "Sure thing, Cameron," he tried to soothe, barely concealing the quaver in his voice. "We just need to find... a restaurant. This is just a pet store. Those dogs are dead," he explained, "and they can't hurt you."

"This is just a pet store," Cameron repeated, parroting Kyle's exact intonation. His expression remained neutral, but he reached over to grasp Kyle's hand again. "Kyle," he murmured, shoulders relaxing as he rocked slightly, back and forth where he stood.

"I'm right here, Cam. It's just a pet store, and some dead dogs. C'mon, big guy, let's not have a meltdown or anything, OK?"

quote:

---

Kyle asked as the younger boy holding his hand came to a stop outside a ruined store front.

---

Several comments. This sentence still is a little long. One way to shorten it would be to have Cameron tug on Kyle's hand in the first paragraph, that way you can cut out "holding his hand". Also instead of saying "came to a stop" consider rewriting it as "stopped".

quote:

---

Beyond the glassless window, the skeletal remains of dead dogs lay still in long-untended cages.

---

This can be more concise: replace "skeletal remains of dead dogs" with "skeletons of dogs"--unless there's still some flesh on them. Also since they are remains, you don't need "dead". Delete "still" as an unnecessary adverb.

quote:

---

"I want a milkshake," Cameron said, keeping his eyes focused on the dead

---

"keeping his eyes focused" could be "eyes (or gaze) focused"

quote:

---

The image of the dogs in their cages had clearly upset his brother, and this was definitely not the place for Cameron to have a meltdown

---

Nice indicator there's something different about Cameron.

quote:

---

trying to be soothing, trying to calm his brother,

---

Calming and soothing are pretty similar, and thus redundant, so I'd deleting one. Another suggestion: show how he's trying to be calming. Is he trying to keep his voice steady and failing? Is it in body language? Is it in the actual words? Etc.

quote:

---

just barely rconcealing

---

I suggest deleting "just". Especially as he uses it in dialogue not long after.

quote:

---

Those dogs are dead," he explained. "and they can't hurt you."

---

I like that bit, but there's a typo: comma not period after "explained."

quote:

---

exact vocal intonation

---

"vocal" can be cut as redundant as well, because "intonation" implies voice. You might not even need "Kyle had used", because who else would he be parroting?

quote:

---

while holding his brother's hand

---

As you already said he took his brother's hand, I don't think you need this bit.

quote:

---

C'mon, big guy,

---

Awww, I like that. :-D

quote:

---

"OK," said Cameron, beginning

---

Can you rewrite it to still imply that they were both walking, without repeating "with his brother"? Possibly. "Cameron started them walking along as if the incident...." Or the like.

I also suggest deleting "Then" in "Then, after only", as it's probably not needed. You probably also can delete "again" at the end of stopped, without losing anything and it makes it feel more immediate.

quote:

---

Kyle felt his heartbeat quicken

---

One final suggestion, to make this sentence less wordy is: "Kyle's heartbeat quickened so..."

Despite all my nitpicks, I think this is much improved over the previous version. I like the details added, and the slight morbidity of the fixation on dead dogs ;-) Also with the fear of meltdowns, it adds extra tension that Cameron could meltdown at the wrong time. Good job.

I hope this helps. If you would prefer less nitpicks in the future, let me know. I can go overboard, lol.

So, maybe tell me how it made you feel?

quote:

---

So, maybe tell me how it made you feel?

---

Not quite sure what you mean. What emotion it evoked in me as I read it? I can't recall. I was too deep in edit mode, thinking like a writer, not a reader. Sorry.

Your story will likely draw readers to make comparisons to it; just like portions of King's The Stand (one of my favorite books) did so with his relationship between Stu and Tom. "M-O-O-N. That spells..."

There's no harm in making that comparison... just don't make your kid want to raise rabbits, or like petting soft, furry things even if those soft, furry things are dead.

quote:

---

and this was definitely not the place for Cameron to have a meltdown.

---

And my story has more in common with "The Shining" than "The Stand."

Jerome Bixby, Patrick McGoohan, Russell Hoban... I might have to fend off some people citing influence from them. I wouldn't think it was justified, but I still might.

Seriously, the comparison I made was only to draw attention to your starting characters. It reminds me of the characters in Steinbeck's novel... and then when I read The Stand, I was also reminded of Steinbeck's characters... not overtly as such, but I remembered it nonetheless.

It's a tried-and-true theme used in countless stories and movies (Rainman, for instance). It's like free conflict without thinking it up. It just is by its very nature. How a character deals with that conflict is another story and is left to author to decide.

Well, the psychic elements coupled with the autism (Danny is a classic autist, though a very highly-functioning one), for one. There's also the issue of the "place memory" aspect as in the Overlook. That story was definitely one that helped shape my writing when I was growing up and read it for the first time. Thanks, Mr. King!

I don't know, is it OK to reveal all the relevant plot points here like an outline? Part of me wants to outline the basic "premise" and get some feedback on that, but I don't know if that's healthy for a writer to do, even in a presumeably safe environment like this.

This is how I would resolve the troubles in this bit:

***

(Paragraph consisting of two to five sentences that sets up a scene in which we can walk with the characters. This would include the description of the city, the gutted buildings still standing in what remained of the city, etc. as well as description of Cameron—enough to realize that he isn’t quite right and to establish Kyle as your POV character. I don’t need to know that Cameron’s Autistic particularly. Just that he’s slow. And that won’t be as effectively communicated if Cameron is a small kid. We won’t be certain whether he’s slow or just young.)

“Kyle? Hey, Kyle?”

Kyle looked over at his brother. Cameron was gripping his hand and staring into the shattered windows of a dilapidated storefront. The display case still held the musty bones of some animal—a dog, maybe.

“Yeah, Cam?”

“Kyle? Kyle!”

Putting a steady hand on Cameron’s shoulder, he spun him slowly until the boy was looking right at him. “I hear you Cam. What is it?”

“I want a milkshake.”

“Sure thing. We just need to find a restaurant. This is just a pet store.”

“Just a pet store,” Cameron repeated, parroting Kyle’s voice exactly.

“Yup. C’mon,” Kyle said, giving up a wan smile. He was surprised he could still smile. Cameron was the only thing worth smiling for anymore. But he was hungry. They were both hungry. And milkshakes were only dreams, almost forgotten in the endless search for anything that might dull the ache in their stomachs.

With a gentle tug on Cameron’s arm, Kyle started down the street again. But Cameron froze, his head cocking at a familiar angle, his cheeks instantly pale.

“Big Plane coming,” he whispered.

Kyle’s heartbeat quickened and he grabbed Cameron’s elbow in a tight grip—the kind that meant the kid should keep his mouth shut and follow as fast as he could.

***

That last sentence might be a bit sticky on POV, but then I would think the two would be close enough that Kyle would know Cameron knows this or that Kyle had told him what it means.

The thing I like about the first version is that I think it does quite a good job of characterizing Cameron as slow or mentally handicapped. The second version makes me doubt that, makes me think that Cameron is really just a very young kid.

Anyway, chuck it if you want. Use it if you want.

I'm new, and eager (hence the 20+ posts in a matter of days in this thread, many mine), and don't have a writer's group yet, but I'm trying to get a feel for this place by diving in and exploring the place.

Some folks get seriously irritated by it. Others, like you, appreciate it. Generally, if you're willing to accept that kind of feedback then ask for it (though doing so with more than a small fragment constitutes collaboration rather than feedback). It might be a good idea when posting a fragment to state what KIND of feedback you want, as well as if you want feedback only on your posted thirteen lines or want people to read more, as well as the length of the piece you want people to read for you.

I understand you're new, and I probably stated that a bit harshly. All newbies gotta learn--usually the hard way. I've been through it, and not too awfully long ago. Talk about embarassment!

Most folks around here are too polite to say anything, but rude ones like me tend to break the newbies in a lot faster--if they're tough enough skinned to take it. Just keep in mind, I'm trying to help you learn from my mistakes.

So Welcome to Hatrack and may you always write in peace!

As for my story, I'd love to have volunteers to read it, but I felt odd asking without showing I could contribute to others' text appraisals That said, anyone could tell me they wanted to participate by reading my story.

In regards to the fragment, I agree with Dakota that a scene setting, and POV setting paragraph might be needed, before the initial dialogue.