posted
I'm just curious as to whether anyone has ever posted their first 13 lines and received responses but no suggestions for changes. In other words, everyone who read it thought it was fine the way it was.
If there is one on the board, I'd love to read it.
posted
Probably has happened a few times. Yet, sometimes we save our opinions for a full crit and don't bother posting recommendations on the board, often we simply say "I'll read" and let the author have it in a private discussion.
I almost had one recently, though, but then someone came in and said I used too many "SAT words" that stuck out like sore thumb. And then the whole topic regressed into pure silliness with recommended changes.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited May 17, 2005).]
posted
Thanks, but if anything, it should be us who apologizes to you for making fun of your comment. I suppose the upside (besides the ensuing funny posts) is that you'll probably consider your comments more carefully in the future. You're on the adult board now... most of us don't think about high school or SAT's. Please try to keep that in mind. All right?
Posts: 1520 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Yeah, but what about the people who read your story? I don't know what age range you're aiming at, but some people will certainly be scared off by vocab, among other things.
Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think that's fine. Other people would be scared off if he dumbed down the vocabulary. Not every story is going to work for everyone, no problem.
Kind of reminds me of my story Rancor. A few people apparently thought Rancor was some kind of character out of Star Wars and that George Lucas was going to sue me. If my target audience is limited to people who know the meaning of the word rancor, so be it.
[This message has been edited by Beth (edited May 18, 2005).]
posted
It's impossible to know what words other people don't know. I thought the word "Transom" was a common word, but no one knew what it meant when I used it for the flash trigger. On the other hand, when I used "Wayang Kulit" I didn't hear a single response of "I've never heard of that." Ironic. I'm sure a lot of people hadn't heard of it, but it looks like a foreign word so they probably weren't surprised.
Oh, and Stephen, I'm not going to apologize for my post about using smaller words, because I would have teased anyone else the same way. I will, and do apologize for not giving you any warning that I was going to poke fun at you. You couldn't know that it was meant to be in fun.
All of which is off-topic.
The thing about the first thirteen lines is that people can focus on those lines in ways that they don't focus on the rest of the story, because farther into the text the story tends to carry you along. I notice when I give crits or get them back, that there are often large sections with no comments, but those sections are never the first thirteen lines. It's not like the writer sucks during the first thirteen and then miraculously improves, it's just that my focus changes.
quote:I don't know what age range you're aiming at, but some people will certainly be scared off by vocab, among other things.
That story was for adults, which should be the basic assumption here unless otherwise specified. If I were writing a story for the YA market, I would have clearly noted that in my post. Then your comment would have been taken seriously. Even still, I was reading hard SF when I was 12. I never once got scared off by any word I didn't know. I got a dictionary and looked it up, or I inferred meaning from context.
But that's me. And if someone is scared off... so what? I don't care. They can read someone else's story that starts with See Spot run.
posted
I read and enjoyed Hamlet at age eight, right after reading Lord of the Rings. What a way to build vocabulary! I like reading books that use words I don't know. I can have fun learning them.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
As far as not getting any criticism of the first 13 lines, it has almost happened, but usually I get at least one person who wants to rewrite it in their own words. Plus, it is impossible to make everyone happy.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Something else to consider, when something is posted, people assume you are looking for feedback. Even if there is nothing glaring, readers will look and comment on anything, regardless of whether it is a case of personal taste or a nitty little pick.
Posts: 1473 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Some of us use "big" words because it's natural. I struggle to remember to use small words because I naturally use big words when I talk. It used to drive my children to distraction. My daughter was particularly annoyed at the fact that I used words like "plethora" or "dichotomy" and she had to look them up if she wanted to know what they meant. (I was mean. I expected them to learn to use the dictionary.) She was particularly livid one day coming home from school. She said to me, with a great deal of emotional drama, "Do you know what happened to me at school today?? DO YOU??" At this point, I realize I'm in trouble for something I'm not quite sure what it is. So I said, "What?" She glared at me and shouted, "I USED THE WORD 'LUDICROUS'!"
Nothing worse than realizing you are becoming just like your old mom.
And it depends a bit on what you mean by "responses". There are some bits where there were subsequent posts, but no direct suggestions as to changing the text. But even if by "response", you mean someone volunteering to read and crit, yeah, it's happened a few times. It's happened a few more times if you don't count "here's how I would have written it" posts, but not that many more times.
I don't think it really matters. I sometimes simply say "I'll read it." That doesn't mean that I don't detect problems, it simply means that I don't think I can offer very useful advice without reading more. I sometimes say as much.
And really, the point of this board is not a contest to see who can write the thirteen lines that nobody else feels can be improved. You should not care whether or not you got any feedback on the thirteen lines posted. The point is whether your story was improved.
quote:And really, the point of this board is not a contest to see who can write the thirteen lines that nobody else feels can be improved.
No, of course not. That would be pointless. But responses are so varied, coming from so many different individuals. I wondered if anyone "pleased all of them, all of the time" or in this case the first 13 lines. Such a feat I'd like to see and read! Mere curiousity.
quote:You should not care whether or not you got any feedback on the thirteen lines posted. The point is whether your story was improved.
Umm...don't I need at lease some feedback--positive or negative--to help me improve my story? Personally, I'd take a harsh critique with reasoning behind it over a vague and nearly meaningless, "that was good" with no support.
posted
But you want the feedback for the entire story, not just the first thirteen lines. Editors may reject a lot of stories without reading past the first thirteen, but they very rarely accept on the basis of that and nothing else.
Often, even if a text is pleasing me plenty, I'll have suggestions for ways to change it. Whether or not I suggest a change has nothing to do with whether I like the first thirteen. I know that may seem odd, but it's true.
posted
I see where you're going. Really, I can be quite dense, at times. Thanks for sticking with me on this. See, if you explain things long enough, some of us "newbies" will begin to understand. Posts: 150 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I suppose I should explain the various reasons that we tend to give feedback on the first thirteen. There are several, and which apply (and in what weight) depend on a lot of different factors.
The main purpose of providing feedback on the first thirteen is mainly to tell the author why you are or are not interested in reading more of the story. On the less happy news side of things we have statements that go "I'm not interested in reading more because..." followed by a comment about the apparent quality of writing, sub-genre or theme, character qualities, etc. These are not negative comments about the story, on a recently locked thread, I read a second opening and said it would have kept me from reading the story where the first opening would have kept me reading for a few more pages at least.
On the flip side of the coin, it is also common (though less so) to point out why an opening works as a hook, including minor advice on how to tweak the hook. The locked thread has my analysis of the first opening, which is along those lines. The "I'd read more of this because..." comment is usually in the context of at least one prior comment slighting something the reader felt worked well, though this isn't always true.
The secondary reason is to match the first thirteen lines the writer has offered. You offer your first thirteen lines worth of critique so that the author has some idea of what to expect from you. "I'd love to read this!" is encouraging, but it doesn't lead you to hope for much in the way of solid advice on debugging your text. "Ur stry suxxrs pntewst!" may very well be an accurate assessment (if you can figure out what it means), but maybe you don't want advice on writing from that poster. It lets the author be a little more selective about who's going to be reading the whole text (or some large fraction, at least) and giving feedback. Even if you don't use it to be more selective, at least you're choosing to send it to everyone who offered rather than being in the hopeless position of having no idea whether any of them are doing more than just fishing for free stories on the internet.
The flip side of this coin is that many of the more experienced/busy members like to get an idea of whether giving an author feedback is going to be a total waste of time. They've seen a sample of your narrative writing and would like to offer some help, but want to snag a sample of your response style as well. Any post that makes a suggestion or points out a problem without saying yes or no on the question of reading more could be one of these, though most aren't (even if you just look at the ones by veteran members--besides, a lot of the newer members are veterans of other groups, so that isn't such a great filter anyway). This is mainly just to spot writers who carry around hair-trigger flame-throwers and those who are just clueless about taking advice intelligently. Usually the author's replies to existing posts will have answered that question one way or another already. But occasionally a new writer shows up and hasn't shown much in the way of responsivness.
Then there are replies that are posted for no rational reason other than because we're writers and can't resist the allure of hearing our keyboards click. Probably most "rewrite" posts are of this nature, as are a lot of things that look like they might be something else. I post things like that all the time, though mine usually don't pretend to be on topic.
Like I said, none of these reasons for giving advice on the first thirteen have much if anything to do with whether the text is any good. Even the best opening in the world can garner a few of each kind of comment, "I can't stand characters with Japanese names" to "your protagonist should have a cat named Vinci."
On the other hand, whether or not your story actually collects any of these comments depends on various things. I don't usually feel the need to say much more than "I'll read" for a lot of the established members on this forum (and "established" can mean "joined yesterday and posted three insightful comments"). A bunch of people could have posted on frags other than yours so the topic got pushed down the stack a bit and most people glossed over it other than ones who were already waiting for you to post something. One person was logging in with multiple membernames for a while to try and give congratulatory feedback to himself (it didn't work, because said person was the embodiment of trigger-happy flame-throwing, but who's to say that was the only case?).
Anyway, use your judgment in sifting through what comments you do get. You'll almost always get a surplus, but if you don't it probably isn't anything you're doing wrong (or right). Bump your thread and you'll get some (unless the internet decides to be particularly strange that day).
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Personally, I'd take a harsh critique with reasoning behind it over a vague and nearly meaningless, "that was good" with no support.
thread, I read a second opening and said it would have kept me from reading the story where the first opening would have kept me reading for a few more pages at least.
