posted
This is a YA/fantasy novel and we're seeing the main character's birth through the eyes of a witch.
I'm so sick of looking at this, my eyes are crossed. Fresh opinions please...
The child’s toes pushed at the belly of the mother, brushing at Helen’s fingertips. It kicked out, and then pulled away, as if seeking the safety of the dark womb; as if it somehow understood that the world it was soon to enter would not welcome it.
Helen dipped a rag into the bowl beside her, watching for signs of awareness in the girl’s eyes. After twenty-three hours there had been no progress, other than the slowly ebbing life of mother and child seeping into the weathered quilts and molded hay. The child would not come, and with each tightening of the mother’s belly it became clear that death was close.
She placed the cool rag on the mother’s face, wiping away the perspiration. An intense heat bled from the girl’s pores as the sun sank into the horizon. Soon it would be too late. Most likely it was too late already. Helen couldn’t imagine the child living to take its first breath without intervention from the Spirits. She had seen this happen too many times within these walls.
posted
I liked #2 better, too. But if you keep this text, you might want to change the part about "no progress" being made "other than" someone's life slowly ebbing away. Makes it sound like the ebbing away can be viewed as progress.
posted
You're the first one to notice that as a problem. I see what you're saying, but in the technical sense of the word, death is progress. IMO anyway. Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
Hmm. Not sure what you mean by "in a technical sense". Progress is directed toward a goal. If death is progress, what's the goal that it's progressing toward? And is that the goal that Helen is after here? If not, "progress" is the wrong word. I wouldn't have noticed it if kk hadn't pointed it out, but she's absolutely right.
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted
Start with Helen and her actions. That gives us the "center of the universe" for the scene.
The term "progress" doesn't necessarily mean movement towards a goal. It just means movement in a consistent direction, such that there is an overall change as the result of cumulative "progress".
The word is often used to describe undesirable change, such as the progress of a disease or degenerative condition. The way it is used above, saying that the various contractions and struggles had not produced any overall change in the situation other than the steady and potentially fatal weakening of both mother and child, is quite correct.
Whether the poetry works...if someone has a prejudice against the way you've used a word, there's nothing to be done about that. Just use the word that means what you want to say. There's always someone that dislikes that word or that meaning. Ultimately, you can't do anything about that. Pick your meaning, then pick the words based on the meaning you're attempting to convey.
That said, "progress" is a side issue. The main issue for me is that you didn't start with Helen. She may not be the main character of the story as a whole, but she is the POV of this scene and that means that everything that happens in this scene happens primarily in relation to her. You must establish her as a starting point for everything else. Instead, I had to take everything else and use it to figure out who she was.
Okay, it helped that you stated up front what was going on, but that wasn't part of your text now, was it?
posted
I didn't notice it the first time either!! But the second time it just struck me that you would not tell a husband "She's making progress" if you actually meant his wife was dying!
posted
I'll grant that "progress" is a side issue. But I think it's sufficiently interesting to continue talking about.
quote:The word is often used to describe undesirable change, such as the progress of a disease or degenerative condition.
This is true; however, it's the disease, and not the patient, that is progressing--even though both are moving "in a consistent direction." I think the idea of a goal has intuitive truth, even though it may not be literally the best way of describing it. Does a disease have a goal? Not unless you want to anthropomorphize diseases. However, the course upon which a disease is embarked does have an endpoint, and the disease progresses as long as it moves along that course. It is thwarted, and the cure makes progress, if the disease's progress is halted or reversed.
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted
But we already have terms for goal oriented activity. We don't need another. There is no reason to change the meaning of an existing term to mean something else simply because we are prejudiced against predictable change that isn't goal oriented.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
|
posted
Yes, yes, clearly a side issue. But just to be clear, I didn't mean to dispute that death, disease, or destruction could be used with the word. And I agree with Survivor that consistency of direction is enough to call something progress -- progress literally means motion forward, and what counts as forward depends on which way you're facing. My point is that if you have two diametrically opposed activities, you can't call them both progress at the same time. The first clause of the sentence sets up motion towards a normal delivery as progress, yet the second clause treats motion towards death as progess.
[This message has been edited by kkmmaacc (edited June 21, 2005).]
posted
I'm glad you think so! Honestly, I don't think anyone will catch it, or if they do, it's not really a big deal.
I think the only reason I noticed it was from having overdosed on Maternity Ward, Lamaze classes, and childbirth books a year and a half ago when my son was about to be born. It seems like the word is used endlessly by childbirth professionals. You're forever hearing things like "I'm just going to check your progress," or "She's making good progress," or "Your doctor may administer pitocin if you're not making adequate progress." In Lamaze class you hear that the number one cause of unplanned C-sections is "failure to progress". Is Ahavah here? Is this a technical childbirth term?
In any event, no one else seemed to notice it, so if you like it, go ahead and keep it in.
Best,
K.
<edit to include a postscript> Not that I mean you're limited by how childbirth professionals use the word. I'm just saying that I think that experience is why I noticed it.</edit>
[This message has been edited by kkmmaacc (edited June 21, 2005).]
posted
I've had four children so I know all about the fun of that stuff. One failed natural, and one failed v-back, and two scheduled c-sections. My first two births had some major complications so I felt fairly secure when I wrote this chapter. It's different experiencing it from having to communicate it with words, though. That's why I love all the input. You get to see your writing through many different eyes and each person's experiences colors what they see. It's very interesting...plus I love all the discussions about word usage. I've learned a lot from everyone on this blog.
Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
To me, seeing 'progress' fit right in with the childbirth thing. There are actually 6 ways to progress in labor, so I was wondering which way she wasn't progressing. I would think it may be a more modern term, but I don't know for sure.
Actually, when I read I was thinking more of trying to figure out what position the baby is in if the toes are pushing at the belly. My thoughts were...'Oh, that might be occiput posterior. She's in for some back labor...but it could be breech, that's why she's not getting anywhere...'
posted
I read your 13 and liked it. I thought all it needed was some trimming. I've cut what I thought was unnecessary and pasted the new version below...hope that's ok.
The child’s toes pushed at the belly of the mother, brushing at Helen’s fingertips. It kicked out, and then pulled away, as if seeking the safety of the dark womb; somehow understood that the world it was soon to enter would not welcome it.
Helen dipped a rag into the bowl beside her, watching for signs of awareness in the girl’s eyes. After twenty-three hours there had been no progress, the child would not come. And with each tightening of the mother’s belly, it became clear that death was close.
She placed the cool rag on the mother’s face, wiping away the perspiration. Sweat bled from the girl’s pores as the sun sank into the horizon. Soon it would be too late. Most likely it was too late already. Helen couldn’t imagine the child living to take its first breath without intervention from the Spirits. She had seen this happen too many times within (maybe name the place) the walls of X.
[This message has been edited by M_LaVerne (edited June 22, 2005).]
posted
If there is some real objection to "progress", then you can replace it with "substantial/significant change", though I think that term loses something. All the same, I think worrying over that one word is a waste of time, I don't know why everyone keeps talking about it.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
|
posted
Sorry, I've been gone a while. Rick--no, dying is not one of the ways to progress. Pixy, I know you've decided to leave it, but Rick is right that it does seem to imply that dying is the progress. I think another word would be better to show what you mean. Progress works well when referring to labor in general, but I think I just read too fast the first time.
I just thought I'd throw that in there, even though you may have already decided. They do seem to suggest opposite things.
I'm afraid, in spite of all the drama, the word's going to stay for now. We shall see what the future brings and then decide. Thanks for your imput though.
posted
Hi Pixy, The biggest problem I have with this is only that I didn't know who Helen was. I think if you added one sentence at the beginning... something like "Helen laid one hand on the girl's swollen abdomen." This would fit right in with the child's toes brushing her fingertips AND would give us a sense of who Helen is.
The (suggest to add: "unborn") child’s toes pushed at the belly of the mother, brushing at Helen’s fingertips. After twenty-three hours there had been no progress,(just my 2 cents but I think progress works fine here. The subject is the labor - and it's progress is now towards death - makes sense to me.) other than the slowly ebbing life of mother and child seeping into the weathered quilts and molded hay. Helen couldn’t imagine the child living to take its first breath without intervention from the Spirits. (I think this sentence: "She had seen this happen too many times within these walls." Is your hook. I'd move it to the beginning) This sounds interesting to me. Meenie
[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited July 04, 2005).]
Printer-friendly view of this topic
Sorry guys...
