What is the point of posting such a short amount of material when all it does is confuse those who are reading it? I can’t get any useful feedback as a result, and it just makes me want to quit writing altogether. I’m through with this useless place.

KDW, feel free to take this thread down to spare Hatrack the bandwith.

See, this is exactly the problem here. You yourself misunderstood my post because of the limited information I provided as to my reasons for leaving. That’s what is broken about how things work here.

If I post 13 lines here, I get all kinds of different feedback, but almost none of it is of any use because the readers can’t see past those 13 lines. When I give my stories to people in my community, they can go past those 13 to clear up what was confusing them or didn’t seem to work in their mind. Then they can give me a fuller and much more useful criticism on where the problem areas are in the story.

In here, I hand people a fragment and they draw conclusions without having all the needed information at hand. So the feedback they provide does nothing for me, and because it’s so off-base it frustrates me into thinking there are problems that exist in my work that may indeed be there, but need much more complete analysis to come up with the solutions they require.

You're all missing what I am saying here, so I'll play it out for you:

I write a story and submit 13 lines of an intro here at the Hatrack forums (I've done this before). I get all kinds of feedback taking me in all kinds of different directions but it serves no purpose whatsoever because the reader can't see past those 13 lines.

Now, I hand the story to a friend of mine who also writes. He reads the whole thing and says something like:

"Hey man, the first page confused me. I didn't understand what was going on until around page two."
"Why's that," I ask.
"Because," he goes on, "page two and three are just going over what you wrote on page one, but they make much more sense. Page one is confusing and redundant. Try compressing your ideas on page one into two and three, or better yet, just ax page one completely."
"Oh, okay. I'll keep that in mind."

See? Sure, with 13 lines you can get a taste of style, but that's about it. And if this forum is about critiquing style and style alone, then it only serves the egos of the writers that frequent it.

I am beginning to suspect that this may indeed be the case. Comments like: “The point of posting your material here is not to get a pat on the back,” or “Instead of blaming us, have you ever considered the fact that your writing isn't as good as you think it is,” lead me to believe this. Even OSC will tell you style is something that comes in time; not by default. I could care less how pretty and flowing my prose is right now, I’m trying to learn how to tell a compelling and interesting story in a competent manner. But because I am limited in how I can share a story in here, I cannot get the feedback I need to improve.

So far, Elan is the only person that has offered any insight as to what a system using a 13-line submission is good for. However, I’m looking for more than just pleasing Hatrackers with flashy prose. I’m trying to work out the meat and potatoes of writing, but all you people seem to be interested in is how effective a 13-line poem could be in pleasing your senses.

Of course, it's true that 13 lines don't answer all questions. However, as a reader, I can distinguish questions that I think should already be answered from those that shouldn't.

Generally, those things that make me think the author doesn't know what he's doing; and those that make me unsure what's going on -- those I want answered, right now. In some cases, I can be put off for a while, with a hint that the author knows this is a good question and will tell me in a moment. Not many.

Inga had run almost to the edge of her endurance. The monster was close behind . . . OK, I don't need to know what the monster looks like, right now. But I DO need to know what she's running from.

I can't always use plot to hook a reader in the first 13 (especially with a novel), but I can at least make the writing or the characters interesting enough to keep going.

Now, addressed specifically to EM:

I didn't have a problem with MC's subterfuge, because I imagined he was in a place where cops citing people for public tinkling were unlikely. Also, it seems to be a cyberpunk world, where people have more urgent things on their mind.

On the other hand, the story didn't particularly interest me. It's hard to say why, so I didn't comment.

As far as the first thirteen lines go, please note that the first thirteen lines of a short story have to do more work than the first thirteen of a novel. And yet even with a novel, those first thirteen can determine whether you get an editor to read your work at all.

At a writer's conference, I took part in a couple of sessions called "Preparing the Pages" and "So, You Wanna Buy It?" by Jeff Kleinman. They were a reenactment of what goes on in publishing houses. The participants 'submitted' their first five pages, which according to Kleinman would be sufficient to determine marketability. He demonstrated how editors went through a stack. Most submissions didn't make it through five pages. After one or two paragraphs, they were literally tossed on the floor.

So you might think you should have a few pages to get into the meat of your work, but editors don't. Isn't it better to have Hatrackers or other assorted strangers give you the bad news so you can hone your stories before facing the real-life editorial gauntlet?

While some people tend to post rough 13-line pieces in here without apparently clear ideas of where the story might go, there are also people who post 13 lines here from finished (or final draft, or rough draft, or whatever) stories with the aim of sending the full piece out for critique to anyone who volunteers. To give up because of one response that says "no, I'm not hooked" just seems to be a woeful overreaction. If you want "useful feedback" - send out a whole story to critiquers. It looks as if ExplodingMonkey has completely missed this part of the process. I'm not sure how or why.

As for the point that there is "too wide a range of skill and age groups" - well, yes, and it will probably take time for anyone to learn whether particular people are providing more useful critiques than others. But when you publish a story, you don't get any say on the skill or age group of who might be reading it, so surely it's valuable to have feedback at all levels?

I doubt that any writer would intentionally seek to infuse any feeling of confusion in their readers. In my opinion confusion is never a good thing for them to be feeling when reading a story. A sense of urgency to find out what is going to happen next, or I wonder how the MC is going to get out of this one is fine (and part of what makes a hook), but never confusion--which exploding monkey seems to talk about a lot.

Additionally, your 'friend' appears to have given you the same advise after reading 3 pages as people have on this site after reading 13 lines. He's told you to start the book on page 2 because the first part is redundant / confusing. Well, from what I can understand, that's what people have said to you on here after reading the first few lines. The advice is the same--change it, it's no good.

You need to learn to use the information given to you as you so wish. Ignore it if you like, that's fine, but ignore it for a good reason, not because your pride has been injured. Listen to the advice given, and use it for your gain.

There are quite a few arguments already on here where people have commented that 13 lines isn't always enough for the critiquers to adequately comment on the plot of the story. But they have been made in far less stroppy terms.

One of the options that was open to you was to offer to send the completed story to the critiquers after tempting them in with your first 13 lines. However, I feel that you've probably blown this opportunity now. Also, nobody seemed hooked and wanted to read more anyway.

All the best with your writing. But, you've already spoken about giving up. I wonder if you have the attitude to keep at it.