posted
Hey, you might remember this story I posted on here before. Well, it has undergone some amazing changes, thanks to your comments (big thanks to Aalayna)! After about 5 drafts, each being major overhauls, I think I'm finally getting close to being done. So I'd like some readers to give me some final concerns and detailed critiquing.
It is about 4600 words. Annnd, since I'm sure I need to include them, the first 13 lines:
She felt the last trace of life on the world calling out to her. With a grimace, Oyra slid her feet tiredly across the ice. They ached from her long wandering with no food to sustain her, no rest to ease her weary body. She shrugged deeper into her heavy coat, trying to fend off the cold that constantly crept inside it.
With every step, her sense of that bit of life grew until she found herself standing before a small pond. After miles of snow, it seemed strangely out of place-like one of the huge glass walkways that had flowed from building to building in the last desolate city she had found.
The moon quivered lightly upon the ice like the faded glow of her cursed life. Shivering, she looked up into the backdrop
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited March 16, 2006).]
posted
This is alot better! I'm one of the ones who reviewed the whole thing before, I'd like to read it again it you don't mind. This sounds so improved.
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posted
I'm still happy to look at it again if you want, either now or after another revision or two. (And thanks for the mention. That made me feel good.) Whatever you decide, I definitely want to read the final version.
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posted
What happened -- or, what does Oyra think happened? What world are we on? Did the ice kill everything, or do we just happen to be in a cold area? How does she know where life is? That backdrop that was once the sky -- what is it now? I'm confused.
I was also confused on the first sentence; I didn't figure out what it meant until "her sense of that bit of life grew."
posted
wbriggs, you're slightly funny. You always want to know everything that's going on in the very first sentence. Or so. Not making fun or anything, but I don't see how you possibly could expect every question to be answered right there. Read the story and see. Then if you still have those questions, THEN there's a problem.
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posted
I don't see wbriggs's comments as particularly funny... they are more insightful, IMHO. What he's trying to tell you is that your sentence structure is off. It's a mechanical problem, not a "plot-as-yet-unrevealed" problem. It's not that you have hinted at a storyline that is not yet fully described, it's that you have given us some confusing sentences that makes no sense at all.
She felt the last trace of life on the world calling out to her. I'm more willing to be tolerant of the confusion in the first sentence. It may be a little too obscure and confusing, but it conveys a tone, which-- since this is only the first sentence--I'm willing to risk you will clarify. Soon.
With a grimace, Oyra slid her feet tiredly across the ice. They ached from her long wandering with no food to sustain her, no rest to ease her weary body. My initial reaction is: "Ew. Adverb overload." Why not say: Oyra slid her aching feet across the ice. That does the trick without using an "ly" word that isn't working like you want it to. It also solves the problem of the entire sentence being too long. Zap a period into place and expound on the no food, no rest... after all, THOSE things affect more than her feet. She would feel a weary ache in all of her body, not just the feet.
She shrugged deeper into her heavy coat Shrugging is usually done in the context of taking something OFF... shrugging the coat OFF. A better word to convey what you mean to would be "She burrowed deeper into her heavy coat," or nestled, or anything that implies a going-into, not a taking-off.
With every step, her sense of that bit of life grew until she found herself standing before a small pond. Here's where you lose me. What do you mean by "that bit of life"? This is too vague, and I need greater clarity.
After miles of snow, it seemed strangely out of place-like one of the huge glass walkways that had flowed from building to building in the last desolate city she had found. My reaction here is: "HUH??" That is NEVER a reaction you want from a reader! There is not enough context for us to understand this sentence. You must keep in mind the reader starts out, cold, without your pre-conceived notion of what this book is about. We are basing our initial reaction to your first 13 using every other fantasy/sci-fi book we've ever read in our lives, to try and quickly grasp your milieu and your world. It is to your disadvantage to be vague at this point. You need to TELL US what we are seeing. For instance, the "bit of life", the "it" that seems strangely out of place, the "huge glass walkways" that flow between buildings and the "last desolate city"... these are all confusing references and there is nothing solid for us to begin building a mental reference point so we can track what you are trying to tell us.
Again, this is about being clear with what you DO say, not about the fact that we will learn more about the plot later on. If you are going to use these phrases at this point in time, you MUST clarify what you mean by them. Perhaps this one paragraph is too ambitious. Save the "glass walkways and desolate buildings" until we need to know about them. Right now I'be be hapy to know what you mean when you say "bit of life." Does that mean the character is pregnant? Then tell us so.
The moon quivered lightly upon the ice like the faded glow of her cursed life. I'm not fond of the imagery of "the faded glow of her cursed life." A life doesn't glow, so the metaphor is lost on me. But I can allow for style.
Shivering, she looked up into the backdrop that was once the sky, the blackness surrounding the moon like a ethereal oppressor I think you've nailed this one. Great imagery, it's clear, it's relevant to the metaphor. Good job!
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Elan, I'm really not wanting to start up an argument, but I've already been through this before with some other people. I know I should probrably shutup right now, but I like to figure out what is the problem. So understand that I'm just telling you how I see it.
Most of your objections were simple stylistic issues. I still don't see at all how they affect meaning, but I sure know they affect tone.
The first sentence is one of those "ambiguous hooks", as in...you don't really know exactly what she's talking about (I'm not going to tell you right off what the "last trace of life" is or why there is only a trace of life at first) but that's so that you keep reading. No, I really didn't think about it like that when I wrote it, but I think it turned into a nice hook.
Your objections about the next 2 sentences are completely stylistic ones. Your "Adverb overload" is like a whole 2 adverbs...maybe 3. You're right, I could have said it the other way, but it would say the exact thing I did while ruining my tone. And as far as the no rest and no food, that comes in like 2 more paragraphs as well. I can't state a sentence and then run into some explanation of every little bit--that leads to what you guys complain about as "too much detail too quick."
And yes, you can shrug deeper into a coat, depending on which way you rotate your shoulders. I do it all the time when I'm in my coat.
"With every step, her sense of that bit of life grew until she found herself standing before a small pond." You said this is confusing...but again, I fail to see the confusion. I'm telling you she's sensing life, just as I told you in the first sentence, but now I'm calling it a bit instead of a trace. And she follows her sense of it until she reaches a pond. Don't see what's unclear about that.
"After miles of snow...desolate city she had found" Personally, if anywhere, I could see that the little glass walkway thing is confusing. But we often mention little tidbits in stories that we don't fully explain. Since we are from her general POV, this is a slight reference to something else before the story starts...but it really doesn't matter that you know exactly what the "glass walkways" are. I disagree about there not being enough context however. You're looking at a frozen pond. It reminds her of glass walkways. The "that flowed from building to building in the last desolate city" bit is just to show you a bit of the level of technology of this world...a brief thing that says "Look, this world was advanced enough to have tall buildings with glass walkways." But even without this, I don't see how you don't get the comparison of the pond to glass.
The "Faded glow of her cursed life" is what I like to call a cross-sensational metaphor. Yes, I made that up. But what I mean is that I'm likening something abstract that you have (a life) to something concrete that you see (a faded glow). Now (forgive me my tone) lets compare the two. You have a life and then a faded glow. "Faded glow" indicates a dying light, or perhaps something distant or covered. Now lets liken that to a life. It could be a life that's dying, distant, or covered.
Now you'll prolly tell me that because I had to explain it it was obviously a wretched metaphor. Um...no. All it takes is a little bit of thought. Sometimes you actually have to think about what you read. I doubt most writers change what they write because they are afraid someone won't try to think about their image and get the image in their mind.
So that's pretty much my thoughts on this. Just so you know, since you are prolly thinking I'm an angry stubborn idiot, I did change a TON of this around, redoing wording and editing "unclear images". So I have taken in this advice already and thought through these images to make sure they work. Yet, still I am getting the same complaints. My question is, when will I stop getting the same objections? When I give it to you and let you rewrite it?
posted
A vast improvement over the first draft I read. I liked it and I'll read more.
However, "With every step, her sense of that bit of life grew until she found herself standing before a small pond." was the only thing that threw me. I understand the rest of the imagery and I get what you're trying to compare it to.
This sentence seems a bit off only in that I'm wondering about that "bit of life". What is it? Or, more importantly, where is it? I know you stated where it's at, but perhaps rephrasing it might clear it up, say:
With every step, [the sense of life she felt] grew until she found herself standing before it. A small pond (and then go into description of it, maybe.
It's just an idea, however, and I'm sure there are countless ways to change it up to be clearer. I could be wrong though.
Nevertheless, I'll read what you've got so far and give some feedback. Good work.
posted
Ethersong, I want to just outline briefly what's been said, and maybe take a look at your arguments. I don't want this becoming a flame war or anything drastic, so---in the event this gets out of hand---I'll have a full retraction typed up and sent to you. Or something.
As writers, it is our job to tantalize our readers. We do this in several ways---when we make the reader care about a character, even if the plot is completely cliché and hackneyed, they will often read because they don't care about how many times they've already read the story; they want to read about this specific character. We can also include little bits of information to hook the reader, which is what you've attempted here.
However, what Will and Elan have tried to point out is that your phrasing (NOTE: not the information you've given) is confusing to the reader. You can tantalize us without confusing us.
As with Elan, I'm willing to let that first sentence go. I can accept that the MC has a special ability that allows her to sense lives, and that she may be one of the few remaining things on the world that still live.
There are four adverbs in the first thirteen lines you've posted. There is almost always a better way of phrasing adverb-laden phrases. Find verbs that convey the adverb---why can't the MC shuffle across the ice, or somesuch?
Since you're as concerned as you are about tone, Elan's point is completely valid---that third sentence is long and, too this reader, clunky.
Your usage of "shrugged" is unfamiliar to me, but I understood it in context, so it's no biggie. As Elan said, though, you could change it. Every time a reader (or, if you're lucky, an editor) takes a break from your story---especially in the first thirteen lines!---to think "Huh? What does this mean?" you're risking that reader's loss of interest. If you don't feel you need to worry about it, that's cool. I do. I think it would be safer for you to use your explanation in the work itself---it's something that involves "[the] way you rotate your shoulders."
quote:With every step, her sense of that bit of life grew until she found herself standing before a small pond.
quote:Here's where you lose me. What do you mean by "that bit of life"? This is too vague, and I need greater clarity.
I also think this could use some clarification---not explanation, but I'd like you to draw a clearer picture of what she's doing. How is she following this "bit/trace" of life? Does she feel it like a glimmer on the horizon? Perhaps she can feel it like a gentle tug on her mind, one that she's missed after so many months of seeing nothing but death around her. However you choose, I think you owe the reader a clearer explanation of (NOTE: not the mechanisms, or the story idea, but) the movements and actions of your character.
Once again, I agree with Elan about the buildings---I think that reference needs to come later, when we've gotten to know this character better. As it stands, you're giving the reader too much and yet too little information about your world. Decide what the essentials are. Stick to them.
So you've got my interest piqued, which is always good---what's so strange about the pond?
The abstraction about the moon quivering like the faded glow of a life doesn't conjure up a clear mental image for me.
The last metaphor, as viewed in Elan's post (since it seemed to be over the "thirteen lines" rule and so Kathleen maybe gave it a little snip-snip) is spot-on---I instantly understood the mental image you're trying to conjure.
So, just to assuage your concerns viz:
quote:Sometimes you actually have to think about what you read. I doubt most writers change what they write because they are afraid someone won't try to think about their image and get the image in their mind.
and
quote:So that's pretty much my thoughts on this. Just so you know, since you are prolly thinking I'm an angry stubborn idiot, I did change a TON of this around, redoing wording and editing "unclear images". So I have taken in this advice already and thought through these images to make sure they work. Yet, still I am getting the same complaints. My question is, when will I stop getting the same objections? When I give it to you and let you rewrite it?
First: "I doubt most writers change what they write because they are afraid someone won't try to think about their image and get the image in their mind."
This is writing. That's what writing is about. As writers, we have images and stories and ideas in our heads and it's our job to clearly, effectively, and succinctly (unless your name is Dickens) portray that idea/story/whatever to the reader. That often means a ton of rewrites that can get progressively more frustrating. However, in this specific case, the image you're referring to is not a clear one, especially given that we're dealing with SF/fantasy. In this genre, any and every metaphor is open for a literal interpretation. For all I know, the MC is seeing a fading life off in the distance.
Outside of this genre, I try to eschew abstractions like this at all costs. Their has to be a more effective way of conveying the same information---a way that, preferably, tells us about the character from the character's POV, not in flowery narrator-speech.
As to your second concern, no one is trying to rewrite your piece and no one would ever be able to and bring the same life and verve to it that you would. So far, you've had three complaints of unclear (not images, but) phrasing. Does that mean that every reader will respond the same? No. The next two-hundred-ninety-seven might be completely positive, thus rendering the complainers in this thread a tiny minority of your intended audience.
But, given the responses, there's some clarity issues. I understand how much you've thought about the images and phrasing already---and there comes a point where you either have to say "You know, they're probably right, and I could sacrifice some of the language I've worked so hard on to acquiesce to my readers (so far)," or you can say "No, I like this image/idea/phrase, and I think it conveys a lot if the right audience will receive it." If it's the first, then every crit or nit or whatever is food for thought. If the second, then there's not much more that we can crit with this story, seeing as there's so little room for change.
As critics, we have to operate under the assumption that every word you present to us can be changed. If that's not the case... well, I dunno. Why are you presenting to us things that you are already sure you don't want to change?
In summary: If you're getting the same complaints (but they're not the same, do note the distinction), there may be a reason.
----------- Wellington
PS: No offense, etc., implied. If I was mean/crass/unduly obnoxious, please consider that I'm up past my bedtime.
[EDIT: Bloody freakin' UBB code... Grr...]
[This message has been edited by 'Graff (edited March 17, 2006).]
posted
There's controlled ambiguity and uncontrolled ambiguity. Just because you're doing it on purpose doesn't mean you've got it under control. A good ambiguity is specific, it gets the reader thinking about a specific question, even if it's one with many possible answers. Uncontrolled ambiguity gets the reader thinking of all kinds of questions that have nothing to do with the story you're trying to tell, and that's bad.
"Oyra felt the last bit of life on this world calling out to her." Look how much more this minor edit tells us than your opening sentance. Also note how it focuses our curiosity on a very specific question, what kind of person is Oyra that she knows of more than one world and can sense the last trace of life on this one?
And yes, that's the exact question you want the reader to be asking. You want us to be focused on finding out more about Oyra (at least for the time being). But to read your opening line by line, I'd never guess that. I only know it because you told us (in another thread) what you're trying to accomplish with your opening. wbriggs might be playing dumb, or he might not have bothered to remember the specific purpose you claim is behind your opening. But his point is valid either way, not only do you not provide answers, but you don't even frame a clear question.
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Yah...I know. You're right, just being stubborn and difficult. I really like the faded glow image but I could do without it. The adverb thing is understandable as well. Just wanted some clarification. I think you did that. Maybe I'm just being nice since I probrably took up a good 20 minutes of your time to write that whole entry. lol.
Aalayna told me the bit of life thing was a bad wording but I kept it simply because I really didn't know what else to say.
I'd be interested to see how much exactly you would nitpick in my story if those images bothered you. Who knows, I might decide to listen.
posted
The story could definitely use another pair of eyes looking at it. I've gotten to the point reviewing it where I can't possibly see everything any more because the sentences are just too familiar.
So I'll put in a plug for ethersong. The story is really quite interesting and worth reading. I've already done two critiques of it and I'm working on a third. I haven't gotten bored of it yet.
Survivor - I actually made the opposite comment about the first sentence. I think "*the* world" is better than "*this* world" because "the" is more of a non-word (and it's important to have non-words when you've got a lot of description to help the flow) and "this" begs the question "which?"
I think some of ethersong's frustration is coming from the fact that he's spent hours rewriting this piece, and it really is getting better and better, but eventually everyone gets to the point when they want it to be *done.*
quote:The first sentence is one of those "ambiguous hooks", as in...you don't really know exactly what she's talking about (I'm not going to tell you right off what the "last trace of life" is or why there is only a trace of life at first) but that's so that you keep reading. No, I really didn't think about it like that when I wrote it, but I think it turned into a nice hook.
I think some people are complaining about the hook being too ambiguous. I run into this problem all the time with my writing. It's not as much that the reader needs all the questions answered, but more that they need enough information to keep their interest in the story. For example:
quote:Original She felt the last trace of life on the world calling out to her. With a grimace, Oyra slid her feet tiredly across the ice. They ached from her long wandering with no food to sustain her, no rest to ease her weary body. She shrugged deeper into her heavy coat, trying to fend off the cold that constantly crept inside it.
It starts out with a great ambiguous hook. You immediately ask, "why are there only traces of life left?" Then you move on to her sliding across the ice. This would be an excellent place to add a little information about why there are only traces of life left:
With a grimace, Oyra slid her tired feet deftly across the ice. Her stomach suddenly growled in protest, and although she knew there would no food left in this frozen desolation [called Earth], she looked around anyway.
...something like this would establish 1) that the world (immediate area, depending on the plot) is frozen and dead. 2) Oyra is extremely tired and hungry, but perseveres through it all to meet an ends, 3) is getting tired of it all, and 4) has been doing this for a while. So without giving plot elements away, you give the reader something to attach to.
The rest then flows on smoothly into the bulk of the content/story.
I'd be glad to read the story if you want to send it to me.
Jammrock
[This message has been edited by Jammrock (edited March 17, 2006).]
posted
If you're looking for fresh eyes, send me a copy, I'll read (try and get it to me so I can read over the weekend. I *may* be starting a job on Monday, and my time will be a bit limited after that).
I'll reserve comment on the opening 13 until then except to say that I don't find the opening confusing, merely vague on some things.
...and telling me that my critiques are laughable is not a good way to get me to do more of them. I know it's annoying to be critiqued; but the critiquer is doing me a favor, so my response is always "thank you," even if I decide not to follow the advice.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited March 18, 2006).]
True... but in this case it's a question that isn't very important to this story. I would rather see ambiguity that is resolved later than ambiguity that doesn't really have much to do with the story. I think there's enough ambiguity here already without adding more, especially when it isn't really important.
Just my own opinion on it of course. I suppose it's a matter of preference.
posted
So yeah, if I haven't quite apologized enough already, I will do so again. Sorry.
I was attempting to argue, I was attempting to clarify. But I guess that can be viewed as the same thing. I just find ambigious comments worse than an ambigious story.
Oh, and it seems that kicking up a storm gets me along pretty well on this forum...I've recieved some of the best comments that way. So that's a bit toungue in cheek...I'll behave now...
[This message has been edited by ethersong (edited March 19, 2006).]
posted
Thanks everyone who looked over my story. Had some really awesome comments--some that took me from being horribly frustrated to really excited about some more revisions. When Aalayna told me that perhaps I should now scrap the whole thing, I just about died, since I've spent so much time on this one and I thought it was so great. But then with what KrazyKiter said, I think that perhaps instead of completely scrapping the story I'll have to write a ton more. So, yeah, look forward to ANOTHER version, hopefully within the next month.
Oh, and I'll prolly scrap those first 13 lines...and watch out for those scary adverbs..
posted
I know how much work you've put into this. Only you know just how much more you can do before you burn out on it. I don't want you to burn out. My suggestion was not something you need to do, just something for you to consider if you have the energy. I certainly didn't mean that your story was horrible and needed to be redone. I was just thinking that it might be fresher and more revitalizing for you to start over on a blank page. It was really just about what was best for your sanity And only you know that.
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posted
The main issue with the story as written was there were some significant pieces hinted at that needed to be developed further so readers could get a better handle on the main character and why she does what she does (sheesh, that's all one sentence). It's a really neat concept for a story, and I think it will be stronger in the end once those pieces are added.
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