posted
Mostly I'd just like a "yea" or "nay" on whether you'd keep reading. Anything else would of course be appreciated.
quote:Cardinal Thradt slumped in his throne, doling out canned miracles, feeling hungrier and more alien than ever. Someone's plow needed fixing, another's cat was constipated. Sometimes a wealthy or lucky soul came in to have a robot resurrected.
A banner hanging in the entrance hall ticked them off as they were granted audience: Over 102,836 served.
It was good that miracles didn't take much thought, because Thradt had more important things on his mind, like starving himself to death. He had to because it made him powerful. He was planning something big, something nobody in his right mind should even think about, and it made him feel less like everyone else than his magic ever had. It was enabled by a single, extraordinary secret.
[This message has been edited by trousercuit (edited June 26, 2006).]
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited June 27, 2006).]
posted
What is the length here? If this is a novel, I'd give up right here, but if it's short story length, I might give it a bit more. I want to know what he's planning to do, but no enough to wade through a bunch of other stuff.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
That's some very interesting and useful feedback. I wouldn't have expected a reader to be less forgiving of a novel's pace than a short story's.
It's novel length. I can't stand it when an author hits me over the head with a giant hint and then violates POV by withholding information that I have every right to expect the POV character to be thinking about. I plan on revealing just enough of the what that the reader should be left primarily wondering how. I had scheduled it for page three or so, but I may bump it up now.
It would fit in the next paragraph, but not within 13 lines. The current version is 12.
posted
I'm intrigued despite the -- to me -- sort of clumsy wording here.
I think you'd be better off starting with your line -- It was good that miracles didn't take much thought.
Now that is a great opening line. It raises questions immediately and points the reader in the direction of religion, religious people like cardinals quite well.
I don't know that I would commit to reading the entire novel, but I might have time for the first chapter, if that would help.
posted
I'd quit reading, and I'll try to explain why.
I think my problem is that I don't like this character. He strikes me as petulant, and a little self-absorbed. The plot is approaching great-big-wonderful things, and the person controlling the great-big-wonderful things is, well, kind of a jerk. (At least, I read him that way.) The notion of him getting more power as the story goes on is a turn-off for me. (Of course, I'm your typical example of the kinder-gentler reader, so it may not matter, for the purposes of this book, if I wouldn't like it.)
posted
I'd definitely keep reading, and not just because the hook is so interesting.
I do think that "It was good miracles didn't take much thought," would make a good opening line, but I like the way you show that they don't much interest Thradt, and that he isn't thinking much about them, whether or not he should. In other words, Thradt doesn't really care about his "day job".
I like that he's aware of the fact that he's alienated from the community he's supposed to be serving. Partly that's because the details of the service lead me to believe that it is a highly trivialized and materialistic "religion" (the banner is funny, but possibly too much). I get the feeling that he's not just going for power, he's aiming at revolution, and I'm instantly sympathetic to his perception that radical change is necessary, no matter how undesirable in the view of everyone else.
Or maybe I just like his jaded detachment. Whatever
I have to say, however, I was a bit put off by the humor of the McDonald's-esque customer count. It didn't really do it for me. I expected this story to do some very intriguing things--until I read that line. After that I couldn't take any of it seriously.
If you DON'T want me to take it seriously, then make it MORE, hmm, shall we say 'goofy?' from the get-go.
posted
I loved "Thradt had more important things on his mind, like starving himself to death." The rest of the opening was all right, but I'd keep reading because of that line.
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posted
Novice: He's actually the antagonist, though he'll be a pretty consistent POV character. The reader is supposed to sympathize with him, though he is kind of a jerk, like you said.
I think starting a novel with the antagonist is a gamble, and you're illustrating exactly why.
Survivor: You've got both Thradt and the setting pegged, which means I must have done something right. Wicked.
arriki: Can you point me at the awkward parts? I just wrote it last night, so I'm still a bit blind to the mechanics.
Regarding the McDonald's-esque banner: I'm going for a mixture of humor and deep characterization, like Pratchett does. I struggled with that line, but I think I'll leave it in because it does a good job of illustrating exactly how shallow the dominant religion is.
posted
Opening line was fine, but not sure how to pronounce “Thradt.” Odd to pronounce name put me off a bit.
The second paragraph tripped me up too. I fist read “ticked them off" as in made them angry and I wondered who was getting angry until I reread the sentence and caught your meaning.
I don’t have too great of a problem with the hints and the withholding of info in the third paragraph, especially when done from a characters POV, as you do here. But I think you push it too far and lay it on too thick with the last sentence (“It was enabled by a single, extraordinary secret.”) You’ve already alluded to a secret. No need to tell the reader again that there's a secret to be revealed, and further stress that the the character is withholding info (unless you intend to reveal the secret plan in the next sentence or two.)
posted
The McDonald's sign was a turn off for me too, even though I'm not Catholic. The line doesn't really say anything about the church since it hasn't and wouldn't use the sign. It just tells the reader that they're in for some juvenile humor about the Catholic Church. Also, anything that you would like the reader to seriously consider regarding the church later on in the book will not be taken seriously after that line.
Literary satire has to be a bit more surreptitious than a political cartoon if it is going to effective or entertaining.
posted
I may end up changing the word "Cardinal" to something else, because this actually doesn't have anything to do with the Catholic church--it's happening on a different planet. I just haven't bothered to look for a suitable synonym.
EDIT: I was considering leaving it Cardinal, but not anymore. Thanks for pointing that out.
[This message has been edited by trousercuit (edited June 26, 2006).]
posted
I hadn't even imagined that this had anything to do with Catholicism, but taking Cardinal out is probably a good idea, particularly if you can come up with alternative.
The banner can stay if it gives Thradt another chance to be pithy at the expense of "the system" (less than three thousand miracles since he'd been promoted to highwhatsis...). You could also make it an ornate tapestry rather than a banner, that might be a better image.
posted
I thought it was great. It was clearly satire from the first paragraph.
I don't like the McDonald's banner, either, but maybe for a different reason: it takes it from the realm of _Catch-22_-style satire to that of _Spaceballs_.
_Catch-22_ works so well because it's so damned serious about how over the top it is (e.g., the character whose last name was "Major", whose parents gave him the first name "Major", who was promoted to Major in the Army: Major Major Major). For me, that's almost where you are, maybe just a little beyond that, when you talk about canned miracles and resurrected robots. Then you push something so patently out of current Earth life into it, and it's like having Rick Moranis playing Dark Helmet. It's still humor, but of a much different type, and one I happen to like less.
posted
I agree with survivor concerning the banner. If it plays off the POV, then use it. If you're just throwing it in to throw it in though, I'd look at alternate ways to demonize the church. Concerning the "cardinal" title, I think it would fit nicely with the satire to give him a painfully over-the-top title neatly printed on ivory linen business cards. Either that, or go completely the opposite direction and give him an understated title.
Readability wise, all the "its" an "was'" make the passage a tad awkward. I'd look at changing up some of the passive language.
Is it just me or does this character seem like a darker version of Miracle Max from "The Princess Bride"?
[This message has been edited by Raisedbyswans (edited July 03, 2006).]
[This message has been edited by Raisedbyswans (edited July 07, 2006).]
posted
Strange, I thought your first 13 were perfect. I'm interested. I can see there's a certain comedy edge, but I'd reserve judgement for later as to what extent. Even with the McDonald's reference.
Honestly, that reference made me sympathize with Thradt. I feel like he's being abused by his flock.
I like the name Thradt because it looks easy to pronounce, even though it probably isn't. I'm just not one of those people that actually pronounces words in my head. And it's obviously alien. My initial impression was that humans had spread to other worlds, which had native species that adopted our religions. I know you said that's not the case later, which is disappointing. Since you recently started writing this, I encourage you to reconsider. You don't even need any or many human characters. I got the impression, from the kind of miracles he was performing and the number, that he resides in a small community. No reason for humans there.
And it would make sense for an alien who could "perform miracles" to get involved in the Catholic church. And from your intro I can see why he'd be less than thrilled with his job.
Sorry this post lacks cohesion. Just my first impression.
posted
I'm on the fence. You're telling me some of what I want to know (the Cardinal's attitude), but the wording was tough, and I'm a little confused -- I don't know whether the miracles are real, and what "canned" means -- does he open up a plastic miracle-pouch? Does he have psychic abilities? Does he pray and get some god to do it?
Rule from OSC: the first paragraph is free, which means, go ahead and write it omni if you like, then go into 3PL in the next paragraph. A good way to tell everyone what's going on so we can understand the 3PL.
posted
"Canned" is gone in the next version. I didn't like it, either.
Regarding not knowing whether the miracles are real: what leads you to believe that they may not be? The reason I ask is because I want to know whether it's something in the wording or something ingrained in wbriggs that makes him not like to trust the narrator.