posted
[I have rewritten this opening. The new one is two posts down.]
I'm testing this opening for world-building and tone. Your impressions and confusions will help me make sure everything is clear. Thanks.
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When the seed matriach of Yrari's family decided to send her nest across the ocean to Duurepp-Virja, Yrari thought it the end of her life. For though she had seen only eight full seasons, Yrari considered herself ready to begin the social rounds and seek a mate. Her nest mother disagreed.
So Yrari packed her belongings and prepared to leave the warm caves of their family. Before they departed, their family held a feast to fill everyone's crop for the journey. With her crop distending her belly, Yrari thought she looked very much like a bride. She glanced sideways at the engorged belly of Rarjipp, her nest's replete. He reclined on a couch, grey and white belly ballooning onto the floor with food for the family's fortnight journey to Duurepp-Virja.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited July 11, 2006).]
posted
Possibly those more immersed in reading fantasy wouldn't think this, but I'm still trying to figure out how to pronounce Yrari, so my mind isn't picking up on the rest of the details. Then, I hit Duurepp-Virja and Rarjipp. You use Yrari five times in two paragraphs. That's a lot of strange words in such a short space.
So, I worked past that by changing her name to Mary, the replete's name to Bill, and Duurepp-Virja to Hawaii. Then, when I read it, I found things like "glanced sideways at the distended belly of Bill" and thought it might read better to say Bill's distended belly (yech, what a thought!).
"...her nest..." Whose nest? Yrari's, or the seed matriarch's? I had the same confusion with the end of that sentence, "...the end of her life." Whose life?
"Before they departed..." Who? Up until that sentence, I thought only Yrari was leaving. (Now, I'm guessing that "her nest" means Yrari and siblings, but I'm still not certain.)
"...her nest's replete..." OK, either siblings, or something like siblings. But "replete" is so oddly placed there, I don't really like it even though I can infer what it might mean.
The word "fortnight" seems out of place, especially as you pointedly avoid using "year" in the first paragraph. I also didn't care for the word "couch", but it wasn't quite as conspicuous.
As far as world building, IMO it would be more complete if you showed how they foraged for the feast. (Is there a reason you used "seed matriarch" instead of "egg matriarch"?)
posted
Thanks! If everyone else can hold off on comments until I get a chance to address these. It's pretty clear that nothing is coming across the way I want it to. I'm going to pause and try again.
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When the matriarch announced that she was sending Pimi's family across the ocean to settle in Repp-Virja, Pimi thought it the end of her life. For though she had seen only eight full years, Pimi considered herself ready to begin the social rounds and seek a mate. Her mother disagreed.
So Pimi packed her luggage and prepared to leave the warm underground rooms of their nest. Before they departed, the matriarch held a feast to fill everyone's crop for the journey. With her crop distending her belly, Pimi thought she looked very much like a bride. She glanced sideways at the engorged belly of her family's replete. He reclined on a couch, speckled golden belly ballooning onto the floor with food for the family's fortnight journey to Repp-Virja.
posted
I loved the names and usually people who read sci-fi/fantasy become quite familliar with odd names, maybe break up the names with hyphens Rar-ji? I don't think a distended belly would draw in a reader, it took a few reads but - correct me if I am wrong they hold food reserves in their bellies? Maybe more of a hook, something like planning an escape to another cave to avoid marriage.. I also like the way you write, there is an excellent flow to your prose. Keep it up, you are doing fantastic.
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posted
No great confusion with this one. I was a little puzzled with your last two sentences, because "replete" is an adjective meaning full, and yet judging from the last sentence, it's a noun for some type of person. Are you creating another definition for this, or am I missing something?
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Ray, would it be clearer if I said, "She glanced sideways at the engorged belly of her older brother, Jirar. He had agreed to serve as the replete for their family's journey. Jirar reclined on a couch, speckled golden belly ballooning onto the floor with food for the family's fortnight journey to Repp-Virja."
posted
No, brother implies a relationship that isn't quite right, I think. Or is it?
I was fine with the first version, though. It seemed pretty clear to me. Basically we're talking about sentient ants that happen to have a multi-generational hive structure. I don't think that there's any reason to avoid using the term "hive", by the way. For one thing, it would immediately make things much more clear if "Repp-Virja" is a hive rather than a geographic region. We would know that not only are the hives intergenerational but that they also allow immigration. It would also give us a better understanding of the situation that Pimi confronts. Instead of being baffled by all the ways that these people are different from humans, we can focus on the limited number of ways they are different from ants.
posted
I liked your last fix, Mary: the brother Jijar thing. It avoided the jarringness of the first, and it fixed a misapprehension for me: I didn't know what a "replete" was in the earlier version, and thought it might be the matriarch's mate.
Another possible fix: give us a reference to a nonhuman body part in paragraph one ("Pimi's wings twitched"), so I don't spend a paragraph wondering why an 8-year-old girl wants to marry.
Would I read? Probably not. It seems a low-tech world, and I'm just not a fan of low-tech SF. If I were, though, this would be my preference, I think.
I also intuited that these were some type of sapient birds, based on "nest" and the mention of her crop, which in the context here is used in a zoological sense and typically relates to birds.
Adding the mention of her brother being the replete for the group does clear up the passage that I also stumbled over, due to the uncommnon usage.
posted
I usually don't comment on names, because I agonize so over my own character's names. But I have to say, here, that I liked "Yrari" better than "Pimi." I assumed you were dealing with some sort of seabird, and "Yrari" reminded me of Watership Down (isn't the gull's name "Yeehar" or something?). Besides having the hard consonant as the first letter, "Pimi" sounds like a nickname, a child's version of a longer adult name. I haven't read the rest of your story, so this might be exactly what you are going for. Names are so subjective...I just wanted to give you my impression.
I'm still not certain, reading the new version, if "the matriarch" and Pimi's mother are two different characters. However, I can't say I'm terribly bothered by not knowing.
I wouldn't know quite how to handle the descriptions you are doing, and I think you've done a great job with them. (I can't wait to find out what her "luggage" looks like!) The only thing that seems inconsistent to me is the phrase "With her crop distending her belly..." This is probably just a personal thing, as my observations go back to a childhood with ducks and chickens, but I never thought of their crops as being in their bellies. That said, I don't know how I DID think of them...certainly not chest. My anatomy background would make me want to say "With her crop distending the flexure of her neck..." which is just silly, so I can't really help other than offering my initial observation. (Maybe just "With her crop distended, Pimi thought...")
posted
I thought birds because of the words "nest" and "crop". The descriptions of cave and ocean made me think cliff-nesters, which was reinforced by the mention of "grey and white belly".
I know other animals have an anatomical structure called a crop, but the only ones I know of that share food with other members of their species by regurgitating it out of their crops are birds. (And some birds do that "crop milk" thing.)
In your second posting, I was already imprinted with "bird." So I skipped right over "warm underground rooms of their nest". I suppose you could be dealing with worms or termites, if I read it objectively (well, that's not really possible, is it?). But you talk about colors and other visual elements, so I didn't really consider them as good possibilities. I never even considered ants...mostly because I didn't think they shared food from their crops (I've always thought they had some kind of "pouch" in their mouths). Bees carry nectar in their crops, but it would be odd to think about a female offspring.
So, after all that rambling, which probably doesn't really help...birds.
Even if you are dealing with something completely alien, my mind is going to try to make it look like something familiar. I don't think all readers have that same limitation. You might could clear up a lot of the ambiguity by referring to skin, feathers, scales, or chitin. Unless you mean it to be ambiguous...which wouldn't bother me at all. I'm perfectly willing to roll with your descriptions and build the characters in my mind as we go, because you are making a character that is more personality than physique.
posted
I meant to add: I wouldn't mind finding out they weren't birds, even if I had been picturing birds...this has happened to me before. Sometimes I can go back and re-read and discover I missed important clues, and sometimes I find there were no clues to miss. Either way, if I've been entertained I don't care. I think readers often interpret a story entirely differently from how the author intended; it doesn't really matter as long as both author and reader were satisfied.
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As for the bird thing, I didn't really have a visual in mind. Just a picture of people with a belly fetish. I'm willing to find out what their appearances are later.
posted
The problem is a lack of positive evidence. In the absence of solid indications to the nature of what is being described, readers are forced to make assumptions based on very minimal evidence.
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posted
I think you would be helped by a visual description of at least one of the characters sooner rather than later to clear up the "bird" - nonbird issue.
What made me think bird:
(1)sending Pimi's family across the ocean (okay whatever it is has to cross an ocean);
(2) Nest
(3) feast to fill everyone's crop for the journey."
(4) With her crop distending her belly . .
(5) the engorged belly of her family's replete.
(6) speckled golden belly (do ants have speckled bellies? None tht I've seen)
(7) ballooning onto the floor with food for the family's fortnight journey to Repp-Virja.
I too missed that the "nest" was underground. Although, I'm not sure that it would have bothered me because the rest of the imagry was so firmly birdlike in my mind.
"Keehaa" is the bird from Watership Down and he lived in a rabbit run.
quote:In the absence of solid indications to the nature of what is being described, readers are forced to make assumptions based on very minimal evidence.
I totally understand, I'm just trying to figure out which things are triggering different images and this is exactly the sort of dialogue I need.
posted
I liked the interplay between mother and daughter, very simple and implies emerging rivalry.
I had a problem with the word luggage. Luggage is a 16th Century word mean something that is 'lugged'' It also has sea-going implications which, combined with the mention that they were being sent across the sea and the idea of colonisation, led me to assume we were about follow this character as they embarked on a sea voyage.
But as the setting became clearer, the word 'luggage' sounded more and more incongruous with nests, crops etc.
BTW Lots of animals have crops. Bees have crops too, and hives and matriarchs, so are a better fit. They even carry 'baggage' on their legs as they fly.
But I did think they were bird like creatures, maybe because I assumed the 'replete' must produce some kind of 'crop milk' for the family.
About the crop, why don't they just pack food in their luggage?
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited July 12, 2006).]
posted
Okay...Let's try this one and see if it answers any questions or if I've just made things worse.
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When the matriarch announced that she was sending Pimi's family across the ocean to settle in Repp-Virja, Pimi thought it the end of her life. For though she had seen only eight full years, Pimi considered herself ready to fill her crop and begin the social rounds, seeking a mate. Her mother disagreed.
So Pimi packed her luggage and prepared to leave the warm underground rooms of their home. Before they departed, the matriarch held a feast to fill everyone's crop for the journey. The gas lights gave a gentle glow to the great hall. Heaped on tables around the room, the variety and amount of food, made it look as if the matriarch had bought everything at the market. Assigned to the fruit dishes, Pimi filled her crop until it distended the spotted green and amber skin of her belly like a bride's.
posted
See 'luggage' fits more with the setting as portrayed here. Gaslight and steamer trunks I like it.
It does indicate that they wear minimal or no clothes and makes me wonder what might be in the luggage
On a serious note, I did miss the sense of a 'nest' or 'hive' in this one. Does that fit?
I am not a fan of non-human stories — call me a species-ist — but these guys seem different enough in the way they think to be convincingly non-human rather than just thinly veiled human characters running around in alien skins.
PS. Read this as: if I'm going to read about aliens, I want to 'sense' alien minds at work.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited July 12, 2006).]
posted
hoptoad--bless you. I think I'm finally getting this where I want it to go. The next line addresses clothing, but alas, it was line fourteen.
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posted
And there I was prattling on about birds. This is very different from what I imagined after reading the first scene, and I like it better. It's more original this way. These characters seem more human-like, but still so alien as to prevent me from picturing them humanoid. I don't have any picture at all, really, except the belly and color...so I'm kind of depending on you to provide something else fairly quickly. Trying to decide...how did she pack her luggage, would you need hands for that? And does she fill her crop through mouth, beak, mandible, or tube?
Adding the gas lights is pure genius, because it gives a completely different feel to the setting.
posted
When people are reading and get a different impression than what I was aiming for, it's always tempting to explain, but I find that I'm more likely to correct the issues if I'm patient and keep rewriting until my vision comes into view for the people reading it. Thank you all for being patient with me. The other appearance questions are ones which I hit in the next couple of lines, so I think I'm probably in the clear now.
posted
Mary, I didn't get any of the bird imagry with the last version. I have only the vaguest sense of this creature and would be willing to give you a paragraph or two to fill me in on "what" she is. Deleting the reference to "nest" was very helpful.
Keep editing, I think you are on the right track. I'd be willing to read more.
posted
Mary, I really like your last version. I would keep reading even though I don't like lo-tech SF, because I want to know more about her race. I do have a bird image in my mind when I read it, because of "crop," but it doesn't bother me. I'm pretty sure they're not that birdlike, because of the underground living, and no mention of flying.
If you keep doing this, well, I'm going to want to read the whole thing.
posted
Thanks! Any time I can make someone want to read outside of their genre, I figure that I must be on the right track. I'm 1400 words into it, and estimate that it will be 6000 when I'm finished. I'll post again when I'm ready for readers.
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posted
I like it. When I read they were underground, I thought of their doors as openings in the sides of a cliff.
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posted
Hmmm...well, with the direction that the modifications have gone and the dialog that's prompted them, it seems like you're going for some kind of lizards. You've also moved them a couple of big steps closer to having a human-style social order.
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I like it.
