The rule is to post only 13 lines. I'm pretty new here, so I don't know whether the punishment is capital, corporal, or financial.
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To keep this kosher, I'll only comment on the first 13 lines:
I would omit "Until this moment, it hadn’t bothered him." This just seems to be filler.
I would omit "The cold and wind made his eyes water as he scanned the terrain. His heart sank as he took in the desolate scene. He hoped he had reached his destination." You've already expressed all this in the preceding paragraphs.
You've got me wanting to know who or what the Scuddar is. I also like the way it reads. Hope they let you live to write more.
By the way, if you would like to edit your post to remove the surplus lines, you can do that by clicking on the little pencil icon in the line above the post you want to edit.
(Edited to add comment about editing.)
[This message has been edited by Wayne (edited August 22, 2006).]
I only went to the break as I'm unsure quite where thirteen page lines ends.
The hole hadn't bothered him before now- either tell us why or delete it.
Drop "hurriedly"- unnecessary modifier
To keep the biting cold out- redundant
Wind blown hair... stinging...- great line, I loved it
Before and below him- pick one
I also want to know right away what is before him but you change topic.
Drop "It had not been easy to reach the crag" line. Show us, don't tell.
He's "taken in" the scene before him twice now and we still don't know what it is. Instead of taking in the scene a second time just tell us what it is.
posted
I read to the end of the first section. I don't know what's happening. I know a great deal about how MC feels cold, but why he's out there, what he sees, what he wants (since I don't know what a Scuddar is) -- no idea.
So all I have to interest me is that someone is cold, and that doesn't hook me.
posted
Thanks Wayne and cll for your comments. Your points have been noted.
wbriggs, there is little one can convey in just 13 lines. If you or anyone would like to read more of this story as well as other stories I have written, you could go to my website:
This point is worth re-stating every so often, so forgive me if you already know this--some others may not.
If you post a story on your website, or any other publicly accessible website, it is considered to have been published. You will be unable to sell such a story to any magazine that doesn't publish reprints, and to those that do, you will be able to sell it ONLY as a reprint. (This is one of the reasons for the 13-line rule here.)
Basically, you should never post a story on-line unless you have no interest in ever selling the story, but merely hope that some people will read and enjoy it.
posted
I do realise this. I have never attempted to get any of my work published. I would only do so when I feel I am skilled enough to write a story worth publishing that will sell. When that happens, I will write a new novel that no one shall see unless they buy the book! I have many ideas stored in my head for more stories. However, thanks for your concern. It is appreciated. Johnny
Posts: 13 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Okay. I have read the posts you have shown. Now, a question. How many successful published books have you read that have all that you demand in the first thirteen lines? You want to know why, what, when and how all at the beginning of the first paragraph or two. You can get that info by reading the back of the book cover or in a synopsis. Why bother to read further? Take another look at my thirteen lines and tell me honestly that you can't see any hooks there. If you can't, then tell me what a hook is. Write me thirteen *opening* lines that contain all the things you mentioned so that I can see what you mean. Let's have some opinions of published writers on this subject. Johnny Posts: 13 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Johnny, I know how you feel. You post a fragment and think you've made some progress and it gets torn to pieces. And sometimes it seems to be unreasonable and incorrect. But... It's all an effort to help, and what I've been doing is sucking it up and looking for helpful stuff in it.
If something's really unreasonable, you just have to discard it. Arguing with a critic is a waste of time. I think that may be a truism.
posted
In OSC's class, we went through the beginnings of several published books. Out of about 20, there was one that concealed what MC knew of the big picture, and even it told us what was going on in that moment, which was hook-y enough (a boy was running away from people that wanted to imprison or kill him).
I honestly am not hooked by the text shown. A hook for me is something that makes me want to read further. This can happen a variety of ways -- usually, I'm drawn into the character's struggle because I know what he wants and why. It can be the beauty of the writing or the quirkiness of the voice.
I just looked through some of the stories in the current IGMS issue. Here's what I found in the first few lines:
* A guy with an Arabic name is trying to diagnose a cat's illness by noting the patterns in its fur. Cat phrenology! I also *suspect* the cat's illness is magical, but I don't know yet.
* Alvin Maker is boarding a luxury barge on the Ohio. So's a family with slaves. So are chained runaways.
* A painter compulsively paints a woman he adores, but dares not speak to; he's poor and she's nobility.
* A career woman shows off her alien pet to a neighbor.
None of these were along the lines of "something is happening and I, the reader, don't know what."
So: I tried and tried in OSC's class to do what he said in this regard -- just tell us. It seemed wrong. But eventually I did it, and it worked.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited August 24, 2006).]
posted
Wayne, I wasn't arguing. I was asking for a reasonable explanation and an example. I know I could just ignore comments of a critic. I just cannot see how thirteen lines can contain all the info that wbriggs wanted without giving away the plot before the story had begun. Looking at quite a few of the submissions posted in this forum, I see none that have achieved what our friend desires. Johnny
Posts: 13 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Wbriggs, All the advice that I have seen in articles about writing and writing classes have tressed that one should show and not tell. Descriptions, or *showing* use up words and thirteen lines only contain a limited number of those. I can see what you are trying to tell me, but I still would like to see an example, preferably one of your own, so that I can see just how you achieve this. Johnny
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posted
What do we need in 13 lines? Not the whole plot, certainly. But we do want a reason to read on. We here try to make the first page as strong as it can be, because usually that's all you have to grab an editor's attention, and frankly, there's nothing attention-grabbing in these first 13 lines. Right now, it's too much description of where the character is instead of why he is where he is. Maybe try rewriting with that in mind. Just my two cents, take it )with a large grain of salt) or leave it. Posts: 34 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Honestly, I don't know if I'd read more if it was available. It feels unfocused. Make sure you know exactly what the goal is of this scene. Is it how he got up on the cliff, that he can see this "daunting" sight, what the daunting sight is, or something else?
Have you heard of the grammar mistake of "vague antecedent"? It appears here: "Until this moment, it hadn’t bothered him"—in other words, what is "it" referring to? At first read, I thought it could be the cold or the tunic, which confused me. A tip to remember about "it" is it will automatically refer back to the most recently mentioned noun or phrase. Care should be used when using it.
"He didn’t care about the increasing force of the wind..." Um, if he's on a precarious cliff face, he should care, since it could knock him to his death, and the pain would be a distraction. Perhaps he's trying to ignore it?
"What did bother him was the daunting sight before and below him." Bother and daunting don't match each other in intensity, and "before and below" tells me that there was a daunting sight in front of him and one below him, though that's obviously not what you intended to convey.
And is it really necessary to go back to how he got up there? Can't it be hinted at in bits of further description of his actions now? Like, you could mention when he tries to grip a rock that it slipped from his own sweat and blood from the handholds that have already cut him, that sort of thing.
I read through the string on the first link that wbriggs posted above. I think it helped me to understand a little more what these guys are so picky about. A couple of points that stuck in my mind:
Even if you thought this 13-line thing were all wet, it would be a great writing exercise to see if you could get one of these hardcases to say, "well done." Think of what you could learn.
Why wouldn't you want to grab the reader in the first few lines?
As a reader, it might occur to you that you would never decide on buying or not buying a book on the first 13 lines. Unless you are an established writer, you'll have to hook some reader who's reading as a job and would rather be doing something else.
The first 13 lines is a standard of this forum, and the critiques are naturally going to be base on that.
I think you'd find that string helpful.
I actually think I'm beginning to see what they saw in the three beginnings of mine that were trashed!
quote:What did bother him was the daunting sight before and below him.
This is the only thing you mention in your thirteen line opening about which the POV character actually cares. Much of your prose is wasted telling us things that you actively tell us are of no interest to the POV character. And this one thing, the only thing about which we have any reason (according to your text) to care, is not described or explicated any further than saying that it was visible and in front of him.
That's the problem that wbriggs is calling to your attention. It's a real problem. Claiming that published books do this all the time only shows that you either have terrible taste in books or that you are unable to distinguish the difference between what publishable writers are doing and what you've done here.
posted
DayDreamer, Thanks for your input. I agree entirely that the first page should be an attention grabber. But, thirteen lines is hardly a page. These opening lines were part of a kind of prologue consisting of 200 words, somewhat more than thirteen lines. I have just read the opening lines of ten stories by Stephen King and two of Arthur C Clarke. None meet the requirements you and WBriggs seem to want. Grab some books and see for yourself. Johnny
Posts: 13 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Wayne, As I have said, I can see what they are getting at but so far no one has attempted to give me an example. It is one thing to say it and another to do it. Anyway, the odds are against me and no one wants to see what *I* am getting at so I won't be taking part in this thread again. Johnny
posted August 24, 2006 01:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Johnny, I read through the string on the first link that wbriggs posted above. I think it helped me to understand a little more what these guys are so picky about. A couple of points that stuck in my mind:
Even if you thought this 13-line thing were all wet, it would be a great writing exercise to see if you could get one of these hardcases to say, "well done." Think of what you could learn. Why wouldn't you want to grab the reader in the first few lines? As a reader, it might occur to you that you would never decide on buying or not buying a book on the first 13 lines. Unless you are an established writer, you'll have to hook some reader who's reading as a job and would rather be doing something else. The first 13 lines is a standard of this forum, and the critiques are naturally going to be base on that.
quote:All the advice that I have seen in articles about writing and writing classes have tressed that one should show and not tell. Descriptions, or *showing* use up words and thirteen lines only contain a limited number of those. I can see what you are trying to tell me, but I still would like to see an example, preferably one of your own, so that I can see just how you achieve this.
Bottom line: show what's interesting to show, tell what wouldn't be interesting to show. If it's important that we know the MC grew up poor in Podunk selling dirt for a living, we don't want to experience 18 years of selling dirt; that's something to be told rather than shown. "Show don't tell" *does* apply to the interesting events.
We go straight to the two things of interest: Diane's disdain for Bill, and her excitement over having an alien pet. It doesn't even take 13 lines for us to get the hook. And as soon as Diane does something, we know why she's doing it. If she knows it, and it's needed to understand the action, we know it.
What Survivor said is another great way of looking at it. The point of your story isn't visible to us. Tell us! You can drop a hint that MC is cold and tired, too, but what we really want is the thing that you cared so much about that you wanted to write a story about it. It motivated you. Let it motivate us.
posted
Wbriggs, Okay. I said I wouldn't continue with this thread but as you did give me an example, I will comment once more and apply your own comments to the example.
***I read to the end of the first section. I don't know what's happening. I know a great deal about how MC feels cold, but why he's out there, what he sees, what he wants (since I don't know what a Scuddar is) -- no idea. So all I have to interest me is that someone is cold, and that doesn't hook me.***
All I know is that Dianne wants to show her alien pet to someone called Bill. I have no idea why she is so excited about this nor do I know why it is encouraging "ever-hopeful" Bill by showing her neighbour the pet. That there is no chemistry between them doesn't interest me as this is very common in the real world. You described a strange creature but I have no idea where it came from, why she obtained it or what purpose it will serve her. You say the "hook" is Dianne's disdain for Bill and that she has an alien pet. The little info you have given is insufficient to grab me and want me to keep reading on.
Now, back to my submission, I see the "hooks" as: 1. What is Trevor doing standing where he is? 2. Why is he there if he is so uncomfortable. 3. What did he expect to see when he saw the daunting view? 4. Why did he risk his life to get to the crag? 5. What is the Scuddar? To find out the answers one must read on. Johnny
posted
My mistake. I thought you were asking me for something, so I tried to provide it. Good luck with your story.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Thanks. You did provide what I asked for and it was appreciated. Not that it enlightened me all that much.
Hey! I just got a message from an editor in another group. He doesn't know I belong to this group. Here is what he said:
> I read your story on your website. Not too shabby, (meaning I liked it). You remind me > of Orson Scott Card. Clean writing, plot is nice and tight, too. > > The one and only, > Transom Jumper
posted
Johnny, I do not mean to be rude (especially since the rules expressly forbid open hostility) but it seems to me that you have no interest in this sort of criticism. All any of these people have been doing is granting you the help you asked to receive. You say you aren't arguing but it very much sounds like you are as you constantly defend your right to keep the scene as is despite the fact it does not have much of a hook. Anyone who has posted reference material for you to look at has taken their own precious time in their attempt to help you be a better writer. It seems you are throwing their time back in their faces with a bit of your own scorn mixed within.
If you don't like constructive criticism, then why are you here? Sure, some editor may like your story as it is posted, but that's a far cry away from being a published and respected writer. Please don't waste a great opportunity for learning just because you love what you have written and see that successful writers use the same style of writing. Believe me when I say that I've learned more from this site in three days than I ever learned from any book about writing.
Everyone here has two things: experience and a love of writing. This alone is more valuable than anything you are likely to see. If you can't accept the teaching, perhaps you shouldn't ask to learn.
posted
You are quite right. I am in the wrong place. I was looking for *constructive* critique. I don’t mind negative comments as long as they are supported with constructive examples and suggestions.
That I took the comments seriously should be shown by the fact that I checked many stories written by successful authors, Stephen King, Arthur C Clark, Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, Stephen Leather and others to see if the comments I received were feasible. When I saw they weren’t, I asked for an example and received one that , in my opinion, lacked the very qualities that the author said were non-existent in mine.
Now, don’t get me wrong. There were powerful hooks on the first pages of those books I checked, but none had all the information in the first thirteen lines desired by the critic. Hence, I queried the validity of his words.
Now, if a critic cannot take criticism there is something wrong. It is easy to tear down but takes skill to build up with good, constructive explanations and examples.
I actually liked the example that was given. I found it interesting even though it lacked the information it was supposed to contain in those first thirteen lines. I critiqued it using the author’s own critical comments as a guideline. I feel he took umbrage at my audacity.
quote:Hey! I just got a message from an editor in another group. He doesn't know I belong to this group. Here is what he said:
> I read your story on your website. Not too shabby, (meaning I liked it). You remind me > of Orson Scott Card. Clean writing, plot is nice and tight, too. > > The one and only, > Transom Jumper
posted
Sorry, Johnny, but I didn't see anyone giving you negative comments. I saw a lot of constructive criticism, if you could just look past your own ego, but I saw nothing that could be construed as blasting your work to pieces. If you have researched famous writers and found nothing even remotely similar to the examples that you have been given, then you are reading the wrong writers. Or, you're reading the right writers and the wrong stories. Are you reading early Steven King or later Steven King? The first Asimov work or the last in one of his series? There is a difference, if you pay enough attention.
Essays or short stories? Novels or novellas? WHAT you read is just as important as HOW you write. Take another look at those authors you've "researched" and push aside your pride. If you still can't see the examples, then maybe the only way you'll ever be able to go is self-publishing. Good luck to you.
posted
The proper response to a critique, whether good or bad in your opinion, is thank you. Anything more comes to evil. I didn't get the opportunity to read the fragment, so I can't comment on it. But there is something I'd like to add: 13 lines is the first page in standard manuscript format. And that is usually all that a slush reader is going to see.
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