posted
Added a new version at the bottom of the thread.
This short story has recieved two rejections so far (although one of them was a very nice one.) I like it a lot, but I want to see if it works for anyone else.
Comments on the first 13, reading of the whole thing: Either or both would be apreciated. Not sure wether its 13 double spaced or single. I'm going single to be safe, correct me if I am wrong. The whole thing is under 4k words. Ok, one characters name is getting bleeped out. It Hashi-to.
“Slow day isn’t it, Ha****o?” Thomas Underwood said to his partner. “Yea, Tommy, it is,” Ha****o replied. “Slow week really, we haven’t had a job in days. Luckily, shop sales have been good this week, so we don’t need to worry.” “I guess your right, Hashi, but it’s so boring just sitting here.” “Don’t worry, somebody will walk through that door any time now, looking for a bodyguard or needing an exorcism or something. Someone always does.” “Yea, you’re right.” At that moment, an older gentleman with receding silver hair and a distressed expression walked through the door.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited April 12, 2008).]
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited April 14, 2008).]
posted
What is with the ***? At first I thought that you were censoring, but I couldn't think of a profanity that fit the format.
I think you could squeeze more in here. Whatever fits in the dialogue box without the scroll bar appearing. No need to double space.
There is a good idea here. I think it needs to be expressed better. I'll give the story a reader. If you send it tonight, I might return it by AM otherwise it might be a few days.
I think you should cut Hashi-to replied its rudundant considering he is in the middle of replying. the dialog between these two people are clear, you don't need it.
I am not hooked by these 13. It's just two guys talking at work, so its an odd job big deal. your last line is what best shot of hooking was at and it failed.
At that moment, an older gentleman with receding silver hair and a distressed expression walked through the door.
This is telling, no good. You need to show. At that moment has got to go, telling and cliche.
and a distressed expression show that distressed expression.
The door flew opened. An older silver haired gentleman with a receding hairline stormed through. He had a look that made me wonder if he forgot his preparation H.
Okay, you're probably not after the tone i wrote but hopefully you can see how action carries the scene along. Hope this helps.
posted
Yea, the replied mention can go. I tend to use that sort of thing too much.
Show dont tell is one of those writing "rules" I tend to have mixed feelings about, since text by nature is telling, and facial expressions can be hard to really "show" that way. However, that line could probably benefit from some re-organizing. I think we need a bell above the door..
posted
My main problem with this one is that there is too much "As you know Bob...", two characters sharing information they would both already know.
For me, this story begins when the man walks through the door, all the rest could be cut away with the information being introduced more naturally through the story as and when it's needed.
That said I agree with what was said about "Hash-ito" replied and “I guess your right, Hashi, but it’s so boring just sitting here.” should be "you're".
posted
monstewer, thanks for the grammar catch there. I will send you the whole document to read, thanks for the offer.
As to the first part...I probably should have mentioned, this story is largely inspired by one of my favorite anime series, so that bit of dialogue at the begining is sort of a stylistic thing, and a bit of character establishment.
I think just cutting the "replied" and some little tweaks to that last line will help a lot.
posted
The dialog isn't working for me. What prickled my interest was more the business these two are involved in, not that they are sitting around bored. It would seem to me that they are chatting about what they both should already know only for the benefit of the reader.
How about this.
Thomas Underwood scratched at the two day old stubble accumulating under his chin. Slow times like this always made him lax with his personal grooming. The office door remainded shut, firmly so. "What I wouldn't give for a fat client right now," his partner Hashi-to rumbled. "It can be anything, security work, man, I'd even take an exocism." Thomas flipped through the stack of unpaid bills littering his desk, half of them with past due notices. Hashi-to, never one much for words was on a roll. "Even walking dogs would better then sitting any longer around this dump."
posted
The dialog isn't working for me. What prickled my interest was more the business these two are involved in, not that they are sitting around bored. It would seem to me that they are chatting about what they both should already know only for the benefit of the reader. How about this.
Well like I said, this type of opening is somewhat common for the type of genre or style this is coming from. As for their business, well there isnt really a word for it, but you get a sense of the deal pretty quickly after these lines.
Thomas Underwood scratched at the two day old stubble accumulating under his chin. Slow times like this always made him lax with his personal grooming. The office door remainded shut, firmly so. "What I wouldn't give for a fat client right now," his partner Hashi-to rumbled. "It can be anything, security work, man, I'd even take an exocism." Thomas flipped through the stack of unpaid bills littering his desk, half of them with past due notices. Hashi-to, never one much for words was on a roll. "Even walking dogs would better then sitting any longer around this dump."
Not bad. Actually its funny...this sounds *very* much like the 2 anime characters Hashi and Tommy are loosely based on...too much like, in fact, which is why I didnt do something like this.
However, this is interesting, and I may look over the whole first page or so and see what I can do to jazz it up a little so to speak.
quote:Well like I said, this type of opening is somewhat common for the type of genre or style this is coming from.
So you're submitting this story to anime magazines or magazines looking for this particular style? Because if you're not, you might want to change the opening as suggested so that it reflects the style of the magazine you're submitting to rather than the "ideal" style of some other genre.
It appears that you having trouble figuring out the
quote: quote box
It took me two months to figure out how it was done. you write quote and encase it inside [ ] at the start of what you want quoted then write /quote inside [ ] at the end of the targeted text. This works for bold b[ ] and italicize i[ ]. The you can italicize boldly
There you go.
[This message has been edited by snapper (edited April 13, 2008).]
quote:So you're submitting this story to anime magazines or magazines looking for this particular style?
Nope...well, not specifically anime magazines.
quote:Because if you're not, you might want to change the opening as suggested so that it reflects the style of the magazine you're submitting to rather than the "ideal" style of some other genre.
I'm writing it in the ideal style of this particular story and how I want it to be. And since I am submitting to a wide range of markets, all with different wants, styles and most importantly editors, I'd have to do a different opening for each one.
My first goal is to have the story be the best it can be, as what it is that I wish it to be. Then I will find a market that fits.
Now don't go saying something along the lines of, why post here if you dont want the feedback...I do, both in terms of marketability and pure craft. But I write to tell the stories, first and foremost, I don't write for markets. I want to make the story as good a story as it can be, then find a market where it fits...but thats not to say I dont want and value feedback from many perspectives...it just doesnt mean I am always going to immediately follow that feedback's adivce necessarily.
posted
snapper, I apreciate that...I actually did know how to do it, but I wasnt 100% sure it was the same here and was, frankly, being lazy. I'm used to boards with more features...like a "quote" button on people's posts. I'll try to be more dilligent in the future.
Posts: 2626 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
This quote, seems to be,( at least in my opinion, let it be noted,) in contradiction...
quote:And since I am submitting to a wide range of markets, all with different wants, styles and most importantly editors, I'd have to do a different opening for each one.
...with this one.
quote:I don't write for markets.
You've got quite a task ahead of you custom writing all of your beginnings to fit not only a particular market, but to mesh smoothly with the existing story as well. I wish you luck, there' isn't much wiggle room within a short story.
posted
The other poster said I should change the begining to fit the style of the markets I'm submitting too....I was just saying, since theres more than one and each one is different if I was going to tailor the begining specifically to the market I'd have to have 5 or 6 different versions.
I said, in that post, that I am *submitting* to markets, but that I dont write *for* markets, in the sense of not making every decision about a story based on what I think is most saleable, but rather based on whats best for the story itself, as I want it to be.
posted
Ok, I changed it around a little...its still fundmentally the same thing, but maybe flows a bit better, tell me what you think.
Thomas Underwood shook his straw-coloured head, then turned to look at his dark-haired partner. “Slow day today, isn’t it Hashi-to?” Hashi-to nodded. “Yea, Tommy, it is, Slow week really, everything’s paid up for this month though, so we’re not doing too badly.” “I guess your right, Hashi, but it’s so boring just sitting here.” “Don’t worry, somebody will walk through that door any time now, looking for a bodyguard or needing an exorcism or something. Someone always does.” “Yea, you’re right.” Right on queue, the bell above the door rang, and an older gentlemen with receding silver hair walked in, looking concerned and unhappy.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited April 14, 2008).]
posted
I think that still Thomas and Hashi-to are sharing information they know already. It makes their conversation sound false, not authentic, as though they are speaking for the benefit of the reader. And they're bored--sorry, I'm not inclined to spend time with people who are bored because I think that only bores allow themselves to get bored.
What's with telling us everyone's hair colour? Seems an odd detail to pick on to the exclusion of all else.
It still tells instead of showing with the older gentleman "looking concerned and unhappy". What does "concerned and unhappy" look like? Do Thomas and/or Hashi know that's how he feels, and if so, how?
Some nits: "Everything's paid up..." is a new thought, so, new sentence please.
“I guess your right, Hashi -> you're.
Right on queue -> cue.
"older gentlemen with receding silver hair " -- older than whom? (If Thomas and Hashi, we don't know how old they are, so it doesn't tell us anything.) If you just mean old, it's redundant, implied by the receding hair. One gentleman or several gentlemen?
If I understand your comments correctly you're not concerned with grabbing attention in the first 13 because it's not an issue in your chosen genre. Which genre is that? It's hard to conceive of a genre with editors who will generally read the second page if they're not hooked by the first, especially in short story markets.
"Yea" and "yeah" both mean yes, but are pronounced differently. Yea is pronounced as yā (rhymes with "hay"). Yeah is pronounced as yě'ə. (This comes from dictionary.com)
Dictionary.com also has a pronunciation feature that lets you hear the word. I find that helpful sometimes.
Like I said, it's a minor point, but one that an editor might be concerned about.
quote:I think that still Thomas and Hashi-to are sharing information they know already. It makes their conversation sound false, not authentic, as though they are speaking for the benefit of the reader. And they're bored--sorry, I'm not inclined to spend time with people who are bored because I think that only bores allow themselves to get bored.
So you've never read or enjoyed a story in which people are or have been described as being bored? Its not like its going to last...its set up. Do you really think anybody is going to think thats going to be the case for the entire story?
quote: What's with telling us everyone's hair colour? Seems an odd detail to pick on to the exclusion of all else.
Why do you say its to the exlcusion of all else? However, I realize Hashi gets described in pretty heavy detail a few lines down, so that part isnt needed...remember, I am in the process of retooling.
quote: older than whom? (If Thomas and Hashi, we don't know how old they are, so it doesn't tell us anything.) If you just mean old, it's redundant, implied by the receding hair
I try to write the way people talk and think. I was acting under the assumption that in context, most people would know "older" meant 50s+. And not all men that age have receding hair...and not all men with receding hair are that age so..
quote:If I understand your comments correctly you're not concerned with grabbing attention in the first 13 because it's not an issue in your chosen genre
Nope, not what I said. I said openings of this type (as spoken dialogue) are not uncommon for the type of thing this was largely inspired by...a particular anime series, and anime series in general.
quote:Which genre is that? It's hard to conceive of a genre with editors who will generally read the second page if they're not hooked by the first, especially in short story markets.
"genre" probably wasnt the best choice of words here as its not really what I meant, and its not a word I really like honestly.
I never said anything about not wanting to get attention. But theres more than one way to do this. Honestly, as I mention in another thread here, I sometimes find stories whose first few lines are obviously intended to be a "hook" to be somewhat offputting. I write what fits the story and what I want it to be first and foremost.
However, I do see flaws in this begining, and I am, with feedback from here, tweaking and retooling it. But I'm not inclined to turn it into something totally different...I want, however, to make it as good of what it is as it can be.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited April 14, 2008).]
quote:The other poster said I should change the begining to fit the style of the markets I'm submitting too....I was just saying, since theres more than one and each one is different if I was going to tailor the begining specifically to the market I'd have to have 5 or 6 different versions.
Actually, no, that isn't what I said. I believe that other Hatrackers were telling you (in not-so-many-words) that writing this story in "anime-style" may be working against getting your story accepted in the markets you're submitting to. I pointed out that unless you're submitting your work to an anime market, you might want to listen to what people are telling you about what style the American S/SF market is looking for.
Excuse me if I make no sense--I'm currently running a fever.
quote:Actually, no, that isn't what I said. I believe that other Hatrackers were telling you (in not-so-many-words) that writing this story in "anime-style" may be working against getting your story accepted in the markets you're submitting to. I pointed out that unless you're submitting your work to an anime market, you might want to listen to what people are telling you about what style the American S/SF market is looking for.
I wasn't trying to misrepresent you...but what you just said, and what I said are largely the same thing...change the style of the story to make it (theortically) more attractive to typical American fantasy/SF markets.
And from the standpoint of pure marketability, that might be good advice, but as I said above, my first intention in writing is to write the stories that come to me as they come to me, and then try to improve them, as stories. I want them to be marketable, yes, but I'm not going to change a story from one thing to another just to up its chances of selling.
And thats aside from the fact that I dont necessarily agree that this type of opening is somehow automatically unsaleable, although I do wish to improve it. However, I am interested in improving it as what it is, not changing it into something else.
quote:Excuse me if I make no sense--I'm currently running a fever.
Ahhh well being overheated will cause strange effects certainly. I think it will just take a little time for me to align my wants/needs with the methods of those here.
quote:It still tells instead of showing with the older gentleman "looking concerned and unhappy". What does "concerned and unhappy" look like? Do Thomas and/or Hashi know that's how he feels, and if so, how?
See, I honestly don't understand this. My experience is that expressions are described via emotion words. I'm not sure what other ways there are...describe in detail the exact positioning of the person's features?
Everything I've ever read makes a lot of use of things like "Robby's face was contorted in rage" or "Timmy appeared sad, downcast, even despondant" etc.
The only other thing I could think of would be gestures and mannerisms...but either way your "telling" the reader how they look or what the do.
So, how would anyone else go about describing someone looking distressed and unhappy?
posted
Also, let me add...without revealing to much...the silver haired man isnt *actually* upset anyway, he's only trying to seem that way.
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quote:So you've never read or enjoyed a story in which people are or have been described as being bored? Its not like its going to last...its set up. Do you really think anybody is going to think thats going to be the case for the entire story?
I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I don't recall ever reading a story that started with bored characters. Yes, if boredom is important enough to be part of the setup for the story, I expect it to matter later on.
On the "show don't tell" there's plenty of guidance and examples in several books for story writers, OSC's for example.
Merlion, I think you're making a mistake by arguing with your reviewers. You might consider (re)reading the FAQ on responding to reviewers:
quote:Merlion, I think you're making a mistake by arguing with your reviewers. You might consider (re)reading the FAQ on responding to reviewers:
I don't know that she's going so far as arguing, but this is a point I was going to bring up once I saw what the post count for this thread had reached 22. There is an awful lot of explaining going on here, however.
Merlion, dialogue about a piece of writing (particularly in the respectful tone you've used thus far) is excellent - it is, after all, what we're here for. However, it's important to remember one thing about the comments you'll receive here. If we're making criticisms or comments, it is because we are either confused, or think there is a better way you could have done something. Explaining to us why you made this choice doesn't necessarily alleviate this confusion, and were a particular piece sold, the readers of whatever magazine you sold the story to would not be able to have a running dialogue with you about areas that confused them. We are, for all intents and purposes, your target market. If we're asking questions or are confused or put-off, most readers would be, given non-niche markets as opposed to certain niche markets like anime-based pieces where certain conventions are expected.
Take our comments to heart and reflect on them. Pick and choose between them, decide which are useful to you and which are not. In the end, it's your story - write it the way you see fit. If you prefer to start a scene off with somewhat disinterested characters going over some back-story, then go forth and do so. That being said, if several people have the same issue, it might be an important piece of information.
Of course, comments to clarify are different from comments to explain. Finding the balance between the two can be difficult. And when in doubt, remember this maxim I read somewhere on these here boards....
quote:The best response to a comment or criticism is, "Thank you very much."
posted
In my opinion, if your characters are bored than the reader definitely will be. Your writing is good. However, you might be starting in the wrong place. What is happening is two guys sitting around talking about how bored they are and then old man enters. There is no hook. It doesn't matter to me how much info you give about your characters. Make them do something, anything, and we will like your character more than by knowing what color hair they have. I hope this helps, ~Sheena
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quote:Merlion, I think you're making a mistake by arguing with your reviewers.
I'm not arguing, I'm discussing, attempting to pinpoint the nature and origins of particular criticisms, and get a better idea of the overall viewpoints of people commenting.
quote:I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I don't recall ever reading a story that started with bored characters
Ok...thats fine. I have though. Or at the very least, I've read stories that begin in very ordinary, "lazy day" and/or "not really doing anything" circumstances...and then, whatever is going to be the "action" pops up.
Now if you just think that doesnt work for this particular story, thats fine too, but its not, in my personal experience, an unheard of concept.
quote:You might consider (re)reading the FAQ on responding to reviewers:
Honestly, that method simply doesnt work very well for me. Simply putting the 13 lines up, and letting comments accumulate and not interacting is generally not going to be very useful for me, personally. Oh there would be those really excellent comments that just really help out all by themselves but for me, personally, having someone look at tha material and then discussing it and their critcisms with them is far, far more effective. And, as near as I can tell, that aproach is not forbidden, as long as it is courteously done.
quote:On the "show don't tell" there's plenty of guidance and examples in several books for story writers, OSC's for example.
Ok...thanks for suggesting an info source. But this was one of your criticisms of these lines, and I was asking *you* for *your* take or opinions on ways one might do it in a more "show don't tell" way (although as I've said before, thats a writer's "rule" I have mixed feelings about.)
I'm a he. Merlion is a Merlin variant,not a Merle variant. and Emrys is a (masculine) Welsh first name. Just wanted to clear that up :-)
quote:If we're making criticisms or comments, it is because we are either confused, or think there is a better way you could have done something. Explaining to us why you made this choice doesn't necessarily alleviate this confusion
Why wouldnt it, generally? And if it doesnt, well, thats kind of what discussions are all about...
Also, just knowing that someone thinks something isnt right or could be done better is a step in the right direction, but not that helpful in the end. Thats why *I* need to know *why* the person thinks that and/or how they think it could be improved.
quote:and were a particular piece sold, the readers of whatever magazine you sold the story to would not be able to have a running dialogue with you about areas that confused them. We are, for all intents and purposes, your target market. If we're asking questions or are confused or put-off, most readers would be, given non-niche markets as opposed to certain niche markets like anime-based pieces where certain conventions are expected.
Not to be rude but, um...yea thats true, and isnt that sort of the point? I CAN have an ongoing dialogue with you or anyone else in this forum, allowing for fine tuning before it even gets to anybody else.
quote:Take our comments to heart and reflect on them. Pick and choose between them, decide which are useful to you and which are not
Generally most of them are truly useful only with further discussion. I dont see why that would be a problem.
posted
Now first I want to say, this discussion and this thread is already helping me to improve this story, and refine the technical aspects of the script enormously.
Based on feedback I've recieved, and also on further advances of the characters (I have another story they feature in), here's a different version of the opening page. Its still not super hooky....theres still no major action right away, but I'm going for a dash of humor, and a sort of portrait of two partners type of thing...think Laurell and Hardy, not quite as funny, meets Harry Dresden.
Thomas Underwood sat bouncing a paddleball, while his partner, Ha****o Engleton, was at the table constructing an I-Ching hexagram. “Slow day today, isn’t it, Ha****o?” Ha****o nodded. “Yea, Tommy, it is. Slow week, really. Everything’s paid up for this month though, so we’re not doing too badly.” “I guess you’re right, Hashi, but I don’t like just sitting here. I might just take a walk…” “Nah, don’t go running off, somebody will walk through that door any time now, looking for a bodyguard or needing an exorcism or something. Someone always does.” Right on cue, the bell above the door rang, and an older gentleman with receding silver hair walked in.
posted
The earlier comment about the dialog on this board falling short of clearing up confusion: the confusion is inherent in the passage, and readers will not have the benefit of our dialog to alleviate this confusion, thus the confusion remains unless the author revises the passage.
quote: looking for a bodyguard or needing an exorcism or something
It looks like a hook. It sounds like a hook. It just might be a hook.
Meta-discussions aside, I see improvement in this passage. Based on this evidence, I'd say you're doing something right.
Edited to fix markup error. Twice.
[This message has been edited by branteaton (edited April 15, 2008).]
posted
When the revisions are made on the draft send them over. I still haven't started it, but I will be glad to. This thread is still growing so I thought I would conserve my time and energy until it was a solid draft. Let me know when the coast is clear.
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quote:The earlier comment about the dialog on this board falling short of clearing up confusion: the confusion is inherent in the passage, and readers will not have the benefit of our dialog to alleviate this confusion, thus the confusion remains unless the author revises the passage.
Ohh I think I see now. General confusion, not any specific persons confusion. I got my confusions confused is all.
quote:It looks like a hook. It sounds like a hook. It just might be a hook.
Ok, so I dont get confused again...you realize that particular bit has been in all the versions right? That aside...yea, I've thought all along that would be a potential hook. I think adding the bit about Hashi's I-Ching, combined with the exorcism reference, is likely to peak a few peoples interest.
And some people, especially if they read the whole story, will even understand the connection.
I was, on the personal level, pretty much ok with the original, but especially as an opening, the new one is I think a bit more colourful and probably flows better.
I would also really apreciate some more full-reads, I am working on trying to improve the characterization, make the two guys more distinct.
quote:When the revisions are made on the draft send them over. I still haven't started it, but I will be glad to. This thread is still growing so I thought I would conserve my time and energy until it was a solid draft. Let me know when the coast is clear.
You read my mind. I will give the current one one more quick glance, then send it to you. Many thanks.
posted
When the longer passage is ready, I'd love to read it.
With an opening designed to underplay exorcisms and bodyguard work, I'm guessing you're going for a "life interrupted" tale? I'm interested to see what the interruption is, but clearly, cannot guess from the first thirteen.
posted
I thought a bit more about the "show not tell". I don't know where the story is going, but here are some ideas for showing not telling "looking concerned and unhappy"...
The bell rang. A gentleman entered the shop, took one look at Hashi, cowered against the door and peed himself.
Or...
The bell rang. A gentleman limped through the door, closed it and sank to the floor. He removed his shoe and tipped out an enormous diamond which rolled and clinked across the parquet. "Whew," he said. "Walking on ice is bloody uncomfortable, but this was the best way I could hide it."
Or...
The bell rang. A gentleman strode through the door and up to the counter. Seizing a display case full of exorcism candles he shouted, "Heathens! Morons! You reduce our solemn exorcism rites to filthy commercialism. It is wrong--" He threw the case to the floor in an explosion of clattering candles. "--to make money from misery!"
Or...
The bell rang. A gentleman entered, closed the door and approached the counter. Perspiration poured off his face, despite the winter weather. With a trembling hand he slid a note over the counter. "Read it," he said, keeping his other hand in his pocket.
Discussing (it felt like arguing to me because of the "So you've ..." and "Do you really think ..." challenges) comments doesn't generally work for me, for the reasons discussed in the FAQ.