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Author Topic: The Snow Feather
Jaguarfeather
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Hi Everyone,

This is my first post after my introduction. I know Kathleen recommends that we critique a while before posting our first First 13, but I’m afraid I'm much too impatient and I don’t feel quite confident enough to critique others just yet (although I will contribute in future). Therefore, I hope you’ll forgive me.

This is my third draft of a 9,100 word short story. Title (right now) is: “The Snow Feather.”
This is a mythological fantasy – the story of a man undergoing a life-changing transformation out of crippling grief. The genre is not apparent in these first 13 lines. The fantasy elements come into play shortly after this opening scene.

I would appreciate general comments or feedback on this open and I would appreciate others reading the entire story if anyone is interested in doing so. As with many creative endeavors, it is difficult to see one’s own work clearly, even when we can clearly see other’s works.

First 13:

Jan stumbled when he saw deer tracks in the snow. Dark anger filled his mind, but he continued his limping progress up the dimly moonlit rural road. An owl hooted in one of the green-black fir trees somewhere ahead. He stopped for a moment and listened, but the only sounds were the thousands of soft touches of snowflakes settling down. They filled the air like white feathers shaken from some cold pillow – faster now, swirling crazily and shrouding the blue-gray moon. He started his slog again. His lips stung.
Almost Christmas time. What a joke this year. Here I am. Still alive. I’ve lost the one thing that matters. Why am I still alive? Damn. All right – just keep moving; no other choice.


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BenM
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I had a few issues with this fragment.

Why is the story starting at this point?

In an opening, I'd expect a little action, a glimpse at the character and/or a question posed by the story that entices me to keep reading. The only actions present are a stumble and listening - neither of which are interesting or unique. The character seems to be withholding information about himself (Dark anger - why?, I’ve lost the one thing that matters - which is what?).

Stylistically, there were a few things that bothered me. A few examples follow:

quote:
(1)Jan stumbled when he saw (2)deer tracks in the snow. (3)Dark anger (4)filled his mind, (5)but he continued his (6)limping progress up the dimly moonlit rural road. (7)An owl hooted in one of the green-black fir trees somewhere ahead. (8)He stopped for a moment and listened, (9)but the only sounds were the thousands of soft touches of snowflakes settling down. They filled the air like white feathers shaken from some cold pillow – faster now, swirling crazily and shrouding the blue-gray moon. He started his (10)slog again. (11)His lips stung.
(12)Almost Christmas time. What a joke this year. Here I am. Still alive. I’ve lost the one thing that matters. Why am I still alive? Damn. (13)All right – just keep moving; no other choice.

1) Starting with some action is useful, it sets a pace for what follows.

2) However, the reader is immediately wondering why he is stumbling at deer tracks. Is he a raging environmentalist? As an opening sentence it poses a question - one which is not answered immediately. The reader may wonder if it is the focus of the story, in which case what follows seems to have little relevance.

3) Dark anger seemed melodramatic to me, especially as it produces no action in what follows, and has no cause. Clearly the character knows the reason for it, but why is the narrator not telling the reader what the pov character knows, when in the next paragraph he's letting us in on his thoughts?

4) filled his mind seems like telling - if it has no outward symptom, and produces no action, why reference it?

5) but he continued - this seems like action without motivation. You say 'but' as if justifying it, but I don't see the connection you're making, or a reason for it. This reader wants to connect your character, give him a reason to.

6) limping seems dramatic, but it seemed to me that in one sentence I've gone from being 'in his mind' to observing him limping without knowing why or how.

7) although this provides a motivation for the sentence that follows, for some reason it struck me as out of place.

8) why? Is he afraid? If not, it's not shown - we seem to be observing impassively, in stark contrast to being able to see inside his head elsewhere in the fragment.

9) I found this hard to visualize, and felt it was inconsistent when compared with description elsewhere (deer tracks in the snow).

10) slog seems to contrast unfavorably against the feathers description.

11) A three word sentence is a great way to deliver significant impact and provide a memorable moment. This seemed trivial, and made me wonder if his lips would be important.

12) This internal monologue seems like it needs an introduction - the reader may assume it's the narrator's voice.

13) It seems like you're falling back on internal monologue as a crutch for revealing motivation (which it doesn't seem to be doing, since I don't know *why* he chooses to just keep moving).

This is my first post after my introduction
Welcome to the treehouse :)

This is a mythological fantasy
An unsolicited opinion: Be bold, put this after the fragment. The fragment should stand up without an intro :)

but I’m afraid I'm much too impatient
/startsoapbox
I appreciate the honesty, and while we're being honest: I normally don't respond to fragments from people who don't critique. On the one hand it seems like freeloading (for, I wonder selfishly, who's going to critique my work? Another crit site requires 75% participation to get a crit). On the other hand so many beginner mistakes seem so often eliminated by active critiquing that the benefits to writers - and to the critiquer - seem too strong to ignore.

I know you've mentioned your reasons, and I understand - so hopefully this doesn't come across too strong - but don't fear when it comes to giving a critique. Writing is so subjective that all we can really offer, as critiquers, is opinion - and how can that be wrong? :)
/endsoapbox

Still, I'm only a rank newbie myself, and it's probably not my place to comment (I hope KDW will nerf my post if it's out of line) so realize this is not a flame - just more unsolicited opinion. Either way, I do hope you enjoy Hatrack :)

[This message has been edited by BenM (edited April 28, 2009).]


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skadder
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Jan stumbled when he saw deer tracks in the snow(Did his eyes trip him up?). Dark anger (Why did it fill his mind? And on the flip side, what is light anger, or pale anger?)filled his mind, but he continued his limping progress up the dimly moonlit rural(rural? Perhaps it would be better to describe its ruralness rather than telling us its rural.) road. An owl hooted in one of the green-black(Shadowed?) fir trees somewhere ahead. He stopped for a moment and listened, but the only sounds were the thousands (I don't think I have ever heard a snowflake land)of soft touches of snowflakes settling down. They filled the air like white feathers shaken from some cold pillow – (...pillow--faster now...)faster now, swirling crazily and shrouding the blue-gray (Are all your colours something/something?)moon. He started his slog again. His lips stung.
Almost Christmas time. What a joke this year.(Why?) Here I am(We know.). Still alive(We know that, too). I’ve lost the one thing that matters(Which was?). Why am I still alive?(Shoulkd you be dead? Is something thrteatening you?) Damn. All right – just keep moving; no other choice.(End of story, it seems.))


So, to sum up:

Jan is wandering through the woods and sees some deer tracks, which make him angry for some unaccountable reason (withholding). He stops to listen, but hears nothing of import. It snows (lots of words devoted to the snow). He then reflects on his misfortune of losing the 'one thing that matters'.

Your priorities are off, in my opinion. You devote too many words to the snow--you withhold salient facts (Why is he angry? What has he lost?)which unfortunately don't provide real hooks. Your prose contains some telling. I don't get why deer tracks would make him angry, unless what he lost was taken by a deer?

All this stuff is fixable--just re-write it with this in mind. Explain stuff that needs to be explained, but do so artfully so that is sits within your prose like it belongs. One sentence about the snow should be enough (...Through the swirling snow he saw the deer tracks...) Tell us what he lost and give me a reason to read on...is someone chasing him? Does he need to get somewhere fast? If so why? Does he have any special abilities you could hint at? Perhaps he will hunt the deer mentioned. Have him string his bow...a hunt is hook.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited April 28, 2009).]


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C L Lynn
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Okay, despite a few minor things and easily fixed issues, you have managed to create a vivid scene with excellent imagery, as well as alluded to the "snow feather" with "like white feathers shaken from some cold pillow" which begins to tie in your title. I especially liked how you create the sound of silence with "the thousands of soft touches of snowflakes settling down." More, I want to know why Jan is out in the snowy night, so I'd keep reading.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a thorough and brutal critter; if you're up for it, I'd gladly look at the rest later this week. Please email me.


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Jaguarfeather
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Thank all of you for your responses to my initial post here. I’m looking for healthy critique and I appreciate your input.

To BenM, I did not mean to cross anyone’s barrier for protocols, but this is my first time to be a part of this kind of group and although I have come to understand the reasoning for it, it seems quite counter-intuitive that I should begin here by critiquing others before anyone has “taught” me anything by critiquing me. Seems impolite to me, if nothing else. I seemed to have gotten it backwards. Kathleen’s recommendation to critique first seemed strong, but only a recommendation. That this is an “understood” real protocol should be made more clear to newbies, perhaps. In any case, I apologize if I stepped on anyone’s toes, and I will not submit further until I have critiqued a number of others, I promise.

I did find it surprising that you reacted to my introductory notes at the beginning. I read quite a few other submissions in this particular forum and saw that some were just the 13 lines and others gave info up front like the moderator advised. I was not trying to influence opinions, only give the necessary setup info about what kind of genre story this was, since it isn’t apparent in the first few sentences. I’m obviously reading the instructions from the wrong angle if I’m offending in doing this.

As to the story, you want to know why he is stumbling at deer tracks and why he is limping, etc. These are precisely the questions I want the reader to ask. All will indeed be revealed, but I certainly didn’t want to do this in an expository infodump in the first thirteen lines. You said the opening sentence:

“poses a question - one which is not answered immediately. The reader may wonder if it is the focus of the story, in which case what follows seems to have little relevance.”

It is a symbolic focus of the story, but once again, I want to introduce the symbol without explaining it right here. Some mystery and intrigue is what drives the reader to see “what this is all about.” I think the first 13 should introduce things, but not necessarily explain them.

I was also unsure of “dark anger” – the phrase seems melodramatic to me, too, but I had trouble finding a better way to say it. He is in extreme physical and emotional stress and enduring harsh self-blame, so I didn’t just want him to be “mad” if you know what I mean, or just say “Jan was angry,” which really seems to beg the question of why.

To skadder:
Thanks for pointing out my double double-color reference. That’s the kind of thing that can slip past one.
You also want me to explain a lot in thirteen lines. Referencing your bolds:
Why – is not to be revealed in an infodump here, but doled out one part of information at a time. It does come rather quickly in the story, btw.
Here I am – Yes, we know it, but this is the character talking and he is disgusted with the fact that he is “here.”
Still alive – tells you this. Yes, he should be dead, and yes, something is threatening him. You’ll find out what that is very soon, but I can’t tell everything either in expository narrative, internal monologue, or in action, in this first segment. I can hint at it and intrigue with hooks, and perhaps these did not work for you. That’s what I need to hear. Others here and elsewhere have found some hooks in this enough to “turn the page,” but it’s good to see reactions from those who did not.
End of story, it seems – Well, no – this is the very, very beginning, but it seems like “end of story” to Jan!

I do believe you’ll find that snow falling does make a sound very much like I described. Try it sometime if you are in snowy conditions – wear a hood and listen to how it softly impacts. Part of our storytelling should convey the senses and I’m trying to incorporate as many of them as possible in mine.

Thanks very much for your comments, too, C L Lynn. I’ll take you up on the offer. I hope I haven’t been over-reactive here, but I have thought a lot about the craft of this and have some opinions, of course. That said, I am always looking for “thorough” and, yes, even “brutal” critique. (ouch. ouch. . . oh wait, that IS better.)


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Meredith
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It sounds like a story I'd like. I'll read it.
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BenM
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Hi David,

I certainly don't consider myself offended - I just felt the need to illuminate an alternative point of view :)

quote:
I do believe you’ll find that snow falling does make a sound very much like I described. Try it sometime if you are in snowy conditions – wear a hood and listen to how it softly impacts

Aha! You've just provided the key information needed for your description to make sense: That it's the sound on the hood. Now *that* I can imagine. Without that cue, the description in your fragment suggests it's the sound of snow falling on the ground around him - something much closer to silence, in my experience.

[This message has been edited by BenM (edited April 28, 2009).]


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Nick T
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Hi Jaguarfeather,
I hope you haven’t had too brutal an introduction to Hatrack. This is a bit of a baptism by fire, but it will improve your writing :-) There's some good potential and scene-setting here.

Remember that once your stories are out in the real world, you won’t be able to clarify things for your readers. If it’s not there on the page, then they won’t know about it. Asking for clarifications is a valid response to a critiquer (i.e. what did you mean by xyz?), but every question they have about your piece is a reaction that a reader might have and which you won’t be able to do anything about. If one person thinks that way, another might, so it’s in your interests to fix the writing so they don’t have that reaction.

quote:
I did not mean to cross anyone’s barrier for protocols, but this is my first time to be a part of this kind of group and although I have come to understand the reasoning for it, it seems quite counter-intuitive that I should begin here by critiquing others before anyone has “taught” me anything by critiquing me.

It doesn’t fuss me, though it would be rare for me to critique a full story from someone I don’t “know” through the forum.
Being forced to critique 1st 13s as well as full stories has been hugely beneficial for my own writing. Writing more and being critiqued is one side of the coin; after all, it’s easy to dismiss advice and not improve. Critiquing makes you think about your own writing as well as the writing of others. I’ve got a long way to go, but I’m a long way from where I started simply through critiquing other people’s work. Most of the stories I’ve critiqued are a lot better than anything I’ve written. Don’t be shy, even if you don’t think you can find anything wrong. If you don’t love a piece to bits, then there’s a reason. It might be a purely personal reason, but it might not be.
quote:
I did find it surprising that you reacted to my introductory notes at the beginning. I read quite a few other submissions in this particular forum and saw that some were just the 13 lines and others gave info up front like the moderator advised.

I don’t mind framing (“this is what I’m trying to do with the story”), but keep in mind that you’ll be judged by what’s on the page when it comes to submission time. An editor can only judge you on the words on the page. I usually give only the 1st 13 unless I have specific technical requirements from my critiquers (i.e. people who know LA, quantum physics, etc.).
quote:
As to the story, you want to know why he is stumbling at deer tracks and why he is limping, etc. These are precisely the questions I want the reader to ask. All will indeed be revealed, but I certainly didn’t want to do this in an expository infodump in the first thirteen lines. You said the opening sentence:

This is known as withholding and it’s a real risk given the POV you’ve clearly established. We’re deep inside the protag’s thoughts, so you’re withholding information from us that the protagonist knows. It makes the hand of the author very obvious instead of invisible. Most readers are irritated by withholding; it’s like a friend telling you “I have a secret about you” and then refusing to tell you. You end up feeling like punching them in the nose rather than being intrigued (or at least I do).
Tension and intrigue come from your set-up, not from artificially withholding information.
quote:
Why – is not to be revealed in an infodump here, but doled out one part of information at a time. It does come rather quickly in the story, btw.
Here I am – Yes, we know it, but this is the character talking and he is disgusted with the fact that he is “here.”
Still alive – tells you this. Yes, he should be dead, and yes, something is threatening him. You’ll find out what that is very soon, but I can’t tell everything either in expository narrative, internal monologue, or in action, in this first segment. I can hint at it and intrigue with hooks, and perhaps these did not work for you. That’s what I need to hear. Others here and elsewhere have found some hooks in this enough to “turn the page,” but it’s good to see reactions from those who did not.
End of story, it seems – Well, no – this is the very, very beginning, but it seems like “end of story” to Jan!


As above, withholding and they aren’t realistic thoughts of the POV character. People don’t think like this…it’s thought-speech for the benefit of the reader. Once again, it reveals the hand of the author rather than letting us be immersed in the story.
quote:
I was also unsure of “dark anger” – the phrase seems melodramatic to me, too, but I had trouble finding a better way to say it.

For me, the problem is not the phrase (though it is melodramatic), but that it’s more effective and vivid to show that he’s angry by his actions. This is a flat-out tell. There’s a time and a place for telling, but IMO, showing that he’s angry in this 13 rewards the reader’s observations and intelligence.

Regards,
Nick


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skadder
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Hi,

I understand that being critted can be difficult. However that said, should you wish to improve and get published you will need be a little more critical of your own work. The point of getting others to identify the flaws isn't to stimulate debate, but to equip you with the tools to eradicate problems before you post next time--so you don't repeat the same mistakes.

I am from England and lived in Norway for 4 years, so I can say I am fairly experienced with snow. If snow just falls it does so silently (unless you have a hood--you may hear it landing on your own hood). If it is being vigourously driven by a strong wind you may hear it smack into windows etc. That isn't the point, the point is your reference made me pause (You can hear snow landing?) which is something you want a reader to avoid doing. You want a reader to be drawn through by your writing--not have the spell you are trying to weave broken...

You have no hooks in your story apart from ones created artificially by withholding information. e.g.

> I've lost the one thing that matters.

Let's pretend it is his wife Maria that he's lost or the throne.

Your sentence could now read:

>Almost Christmas time. What a joke this year. Here I am. Still alive, but Maria's rotting in her grave. Why am I still alive? Damn. All right – just keep moving; no other choice.

>Almost Christmas time. What a joke this year. Here I am. Still alive, but my father dead and the throne lost. Why am I still alive? Damn. All right – just keep moving; no other choice.


Now, I wouldn't write the above, but at least you are explaining yourself and not withholding. Your thoughts are too artificial as Ben said. The are quite obviously for the readers benefit. All the stuff we write is for the readers benefit (Of course) but it should seem natural within the story.

You said that I asked you to explain a lot in your first 13--no, you put in a lot stuff that needed explaining, IMO. Does all that stuff need to be there or can you get in a later scene? You would have been better off trying to fashion one good hook rather than five small ones in the 13 lines.

If you MC knows something then the reader should be informed of it at the same time it becomes salient. e.g.

Jan is going through the forest being hunted by wolves. I don't need to to know that he lost his wife to the plague a year ago, at that point--but when he meets a barmaid who tries to bed him and he brushes her off, that would be a good time to mention it.

You can dole out information to the MC (and therefore the reader) via a tight plot line. That's legitimate. As the story unfolds and Jan learns that, in fact, his wife lives and is an evil sorceress--you would hear no complaints from me. You may create clues to her true identity as the story unfolds (foreshadowing), like him finding a bloody crow's head under his mattress. This would create legitimate questions that the MC can't answer (so you don't have to explain it to the reader) yet. That is a hook.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited April 29, 2009).]


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C L Lynn
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quote:
"I did find it surprising that you reacted to my introductory notes at the beginning.

Okay, BenM's remarks about the introductory material just piss me off! Since when do we react to non-story material? Get a grip, dude. My suggestion to this "rank newbie" is to rein in the reaming , lest he be reamed. Unreal.

[This message has been edited by C L Lynn (edited April 29, 2009).]


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skadder
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While it isn't my place to police this thread, your comment is directly antagonistic.

quote:
Okay, BenM's remarks about the introductory material just piss me off! Since when do we react to non-story material? Get a grip, dude. My suggestion to this "rank newbie" is to rein in the reaming , lest he be reamed. Unreal.


My interpretation of BenM's posts are that he is trying to be helpful--JaguarFeather appears to fairly new at being critted and his prose is full of 'newbie' mistakes. All easily correctable mistakes--but he has to accept the crits. BenM has gone out of his way and spent a fair bit of his time pointing out these errors to Jaguar Feather. Now, while I wouldn't comment on the introducotry material (if it's not in the prose I don't need to read it!) BenM chose to--he felt that JaguarFeather would have avoided some of the mistakes had he spent a little time critting himself, etc. As I have said I only ever comment on the prose, which is also why when I post an intro I post ONLY the intro--nothing else.

BenM made what he thought were valid points. He expressed them politely.

You didn't. (Unusual for you!)

As a writer, I am certain you can express yourself in such a way convey what you mean without causing offence...

Why don't you edit your post? If you edit down your post to something polite, I will remove my comments.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited April 29, 2009).]

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited April 29, 2009).]


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BenM
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quote:
Okay, BenM's remarks about the introductory material just piss me off! Since when do we react to non-story material? Get a grip, dude. My suggestion to this "rank newbie" is to rein in the reaming , lest he be reamed. Unreal.

While it's good to hear I can write emotive work, it's disheartening to hear that I do it without intending it. I don't really understand why my comment ("An unsolicited opinion: Be bold, put this after the fragment. The fragment should stand up without an intro ") would elicit such a reaction. Heck, I even said it was opinion, recognized that he'd not asked for one, was brief rather than dwell on the matter, included a smiley face, and hinted not to take it too seriously with a self deprecating observation!

Jaguarfeather then explained his reasoning ("gave info up front like the moderator advised"). That advice, where I read it, is:

quote:
Give the genre (SF, fantasy, mystery, whatever), tell us how many words you have written so far, and whether you just want feedback on the 13 lines or volunteers to read the whole thing. Then post the first 13 lines of your story.

I feel his intro tells a lot more than was asked for, tainting a prospective reader's impression of what follows and creating a false first impression. Yet while I still feel my point is valid, I've not come back to 'defend' or 'argue' my position with Jaguarfeather: what he does with my critique is his decision and I respect that.

So I wonder, what really is the problem? Should we at Hatrack be afraid to voice opinion, even if we've tagged it as such and tried to be as diplomatic as we know how?

I don't think so, for that's all a critique is anyway. Despite spending a lot of time on this fragment (and now, this clarification), I know it's all just opinion and the fragment writer's prerogative to fashion his work how he sees fit, not how I see fit. We both know that despite this, critiquing is hardly a waste of time. Critiquing helps me (I learn to spot issues in others writing that I can then apply to my own) and members of this forum have helped me immeasurably by providing critiques of my own work.

I could have chosen not to react to your post. Though that was certainly my first thought, I do think you've raised an interesting point.

I'd been thinking about raising a couple of issues (too much info in the intros, and new members posting fragments but not critting) for a long time, but been afraid to voice an opinion on the matter and unsure of where to post it. Yet Jaguarfeather's post provided an opportunity to start a discussion:

quote:
I know Kathleen recommends that we critique a while before posting our first First 13, but I’m afraid I'm much too impatient

So, I ask you, why should we not offer what we consider helpful advice (though merely in the form of opinion) when it might help fellow writers, and especially new members, get better responses to their fragments? Do we really want KDW to spend hours a day acting as nanny, monitoring the format and diplomacy of every single post, or can we learn that art ourselves? If we have questions, do we resort to ad hominem abuse or do we ask for clarification? Can you show a place in my post where I rendered unqualified abuse, or 'reaming' as you so eloquently put it?


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Jaguarfeather
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Jeez, guys. I didn’t mean to start up a storm here. I’m just the new guy sticking his head in the door for the first time and obviously not doing things just right. To be honest with you, I’m kind of skittish at this point. Seems rather easy to trip the wire and cause some folks to bristle.

skadder said:

“I understand that being critted can be difficult. However that said, should you wish to improve and get published you will need be a little more critical of your own work. The point of getting others to identify the flaws isn't to stimulate debate, but to equip you with the tools to eradicate problems before you post next time--so you don't repeat the same mistakes.”
and:
"BenM . . . felt that JaguarFeather would have avoided some of the mistakes had he spent a little time critting himself.”

I believe I am extremely critical of my own work and I’ve been studying and reading everything I can to be able to write well. I’ve been working at the craft on this story for quite some time. It’s not a toss-off or a piece I’ve not been extremely critical of and completely re-written several times – yet, I realize there are flaws and problems. You said this forum is just to ID flaws and not stimulate debate. OK, but how useful is advice about flaws when it can’t be understood? Are questions not allowed here, or is another forum the right place to do that and this is the wrong place? (tripwire) It seems to me I can’t always learn from just hearing your advice, but not asking, “but, why?” when something doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t mean I’m refusing the advice or insights, or not facing up to being self-critical. Just a quick for instance, you said:

“If you MC knows something then the reader should be informed of it at the same time it becomes salient.”

That sounds like good advice, but I don’t know where to start my view inside my character’s head if the reader is expected to know every salient thing he knows at that initial moment in time (the first time he appears in the story). Sounds like a huge infodump is being called for, even though I know you don’t mean for me to do that.
Personally, when I’m reading a story, I like a little mystery – a little tease of information that propels me to read onward to get to know what’s going on; a series of question marks followed by a series of revealings. That’s what I was trying to do, but it may not be right for this form, or at least not for such an extremely short window into the story.

So, I’ve probably misunderstood a bunch of things about how this place works. I sure as heck didn’t expect to find myself quite so much on the defensive.

Anyway, thank you all again. I really do appreciate your input and comments. Thanks, Nick T, for some very good points. I think I’ll just drop back and not offer further comments or questions, and do some of the critiquing of other folk’s works (and hopefully not give incorrect advice to someone else due to my newbie mistakes).


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BenM
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To be honest with you, I’m kind of skittish at this point. Seems rather easy to trip the wire and cause some folks to bristle... I sure as heck didn’t expect to find myself quite so much on the defensive.

Sigh. I can completely understand your point of view. It's unfortunate that the responses here seem a little intimidating. I don't interpret anything as directed at you personally though, so I hope you don't feel we're unfriendly. I found your intro/bio post interesting and look forward to swapping critiques and chit-chat with you more in the future.

I think I’ll just drop back and not offer further comments or questions

Please feel free to ask questions. If you don't understand a point someone's tried to make, then please ask for a clarification - we're not perfect and learning to critique clearly is part of the exercise.

For example, in your response to my critique, I didn't see any questions and so didn't feel a need to respond further. There were observations, sure, but if I'd responded to those I'd feel I'm starting a debate - not what a crit thread is for (imo. Yet, sadly, exactly what I've done with this post so far, since these weren't framed as questions).

That sounds like good advice, but I don’t know where to start my view inside my character’s head if the reader is expected to know every salient thing...

Sadly I'm about to run out of time (life beckons) but hopefully someone will provide a little more info on this question for you.

Sorry I can't be more help.

[This message has been edited by BenM (edited April 29, 2009).]


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extrinsic
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If there's a common purpose for a story's opening, it's introducing readers to a story in such a way that they become intimately immersed in the moment and place of the story through a focal character or a narrator. Through a narrator is largely out of vogue today, though, at least doing so is more complicated than through a focal character.

Resonance, as intimate reader immersion is known, is a process of aligning readers' experiences with a story's experiences. Sympathy for a protagonist's predicament, similarity of a noble and meaningful purpose with high magnitude opposition to overcome, similarity in an attitude toward a theme, artfully posing an overarching question that is artfully delayed in answering--and answered by a story's ending--are just a few of the methods that resonance is established in an opening. Some stories synergistically combine several methods in as brief a passage as one sentence. Some require more than thirteen lines.

"The Snow Feather" its first thirteen introduces a setting that is at once peaceful in its poise and "dark" and struggling for Jan, which is good if the setting is the opposition he faces.
However, overcoming that opposition isn't firmly introduced as his predicament or purpose. Resonance through sympathy suffers because he's not yet shown as pity-worthy or in a fearful circumstance. Sympathy as a cause for resonance depends on an emotional cluster, typically pity-fear related to a contentious circumstance for a focal character with a noble and meaningful purpose.

Jan is not much introduced as pity-worthy or in fearful circumstances, and not much in the way of his noble purpose or predicament is introduced. I'm more confused by the peaceful setting and his contrary response than immersed.

Suspense is a product of artfully posing a question for readers, the simplest one being what a focal character does about a predicament. That question parallels what a reader, consciously or instinctively, automatically brings into any story, what happens that matters to me? Answering that latter question in an opening is important. What's happening to Jan that matters, that influences readers to care what's happening to him?


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Nick T
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Hi Jaguarfeather,

It seems to be a particularly angry forum today, so don’t be scared off. Sometimes it can be difficult for us (as critiquers) to parse between honest inquiry and defensiveness. Don’t let it put you off.

quote:
That sounds like good advice, but I don’t know where to start my view inside my character’s head if the reader is expected to know every salient thing he knows at that initial moment in time (the first time he appears in the story). Sounds like a huge infodump is being called for, even though I know you don’t mean for me to do that.

More knowledgeable folks than me can probably answer this and my advice may be wrong here; this is how I approach it as a relative beginner.

What you want your readers to do is to be lost in the story, i.e. identify with your POV protagonist. It’s difficult to explain, but what you need to give us is information as it becomes relevant to your POV protagonist. When you raise a question within the narrative and your protagonist knows the answer, then we should know too at that time. If he’s angry, we’re presented with a question. If the protagonist knows why he’s angry, then we need to know too at that point. The only unanswered questions within a narrative should be ones that the POV protagonist doesn’t know. Examine the questions you raise within your narrative, categorise them according them to whether they're known to the protagonist and don't try and pack too many in at once.

If you get the starting point and the conflict right, the info-dump effect doesn’t happen. Readers are naturally given information when and how they need it. Needless to say, this is really difficult to do, but it’s the mark of a skilful writer when you don’t realise it’s been done.

Extrinsic’s point about the conflict is very valuable here. If you have the right starting point for your story and have a clear conflict for them to resolve, you can raise the right kind of questions to hook the reader.

In your case, I think you’re trying to put in too many unanswered questions and the wrong kind of unanswered questions in the opening 13; see my point below. I always try and start my story when something happens (easier said than done for something that sounds so simple). When is the point in your story where your protagonist life changes in a significant way? If you have a clear goal for your protagonist, an obstacle or obstacles to that goal and a point where the protagonist’s life changes, then a lot of these problems become much easier to solve.

quote:
Personally, when I’m reading a story, I like a little mystery – a little tease of information that propels me to read onward to get to know what’s going on; a series of question marks followed by a series of revealings. That’s what I was trying to do, but it may not be right for this form, or at least not for such an extremely short window into the story.

My viewpoint as a reader is that the type of question I want is “what happens next?; not “what don’t I know?” As I said, this is very difficult to do and something that I’ve never achieved 100% all the way through a story.

Good luck
Nick


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skadder
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quote:
I believe I am extremely critical of my own work and I’ve been studying and reading everything I can to be able to write well. I’ve been working at the craft on this story for quite some time. It’s not a toss-off or a piece I’ve not been extremely critical of and completely re-written several times – yet, I realize there are flaws and problems. You said this forum is just to ID flaws and not stimulate debate.

(INSERTED--Nope, I said, "The point of getting others to identify the flaws isn't to stimulate debate, but to equip you with the tools to eradicate problems before you post next time--so you don't repeat the same mistakes."

You then go on to say my comments aren't understandable--fair point. I guess, I credited you with an understanding of the critting process that you don't have. It is a short-hand of comments. Although I explain my general problems afterwards.

e.g.

Why – is not to be revealed in an infodump here, but doled out one part of information at a time. It does come rather quickly in the story, btw.---I am ponting out that this is witholding.
Here I am– Yes, we know it , but this is the character talking and he is disgusted with the fact that he is “here.”---Artificial--who says that? Even if you say people do think like that, it comes across as artificial in fiction (IMO).
Still alive (Yes, we know) – tells you this. Yes, he should be dead, and yes, something is threatening him. You’ll find out what that is very soon, but I can’t tell everything either in expository narrative, internal monologue, or in action, in this first segment. I can hint at it and intrigue with hooks, and perhaps these did not work for you. That’s what I need to hear. Others here and elsewhere have found some hooks in this enough to “turn the page,” but it’s good to see reactions from those who did not.--More artificial thinking for the reader's benefit.
End of story, it seems – Well, no – this is the very, very beginning, but it seems like “end of story” to Jan!---My comment was to indicate a lack of any hook--the story could have been micro-fiction that ended there, with him soldiering on.


OK, but how useful is advice about flaws when it can’t be understood? Are questions not allowed here, or is another forum the right place to do that and this is the wrong place? (tripwire) It seems to me I can’t always learn from just hearing your advice, but not asking, “but, why?” when something doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t mean I’m refusing the advice or insights, or not facing up to being self-critical. Just a quick for instance, you said:

“If you MC knows something then the reader should be informed of it at the same time it becomes salient.”

That sounds like good advice, but I don’t know where to start my view inside my character’s head if the reader is expected to know every salient thing he knows at that initial moment in time (the first time he appears in the story). Sounds like a huge infodump is being called for, even though I know you don’t mean for me to do that.

INSERTED: If someone is eating a meal, then the meal is salient. If he is thinking about bedding the barmaid at the same time as eating the meal then that is salient. If he hates his brother, then it doesn't need to be in there, even if it proves important later on...That could be introduced naturally when his brother bursts into the inn drunk. Then you could make it obvious by how they interact.

Personally, when I’m reading a story, I like a little mystery – a little tease of information that propels me to read onward to get to know what’s going on; a series of question marks followed by a series of revealings. That’s what I was trying to do, but it may not be right for this form, or at least not for such an extremely short window into the story.


Hey--write your story anyway you like. You don't have to listen to advice from me, listen to someone else's advice if you want--I won't comment on your intro's if it's a waste of time for both of us.

The mistakes you are making are basic errors--I have explained the same things to many people on this and other forums--I don't have time to debate them with each person. If you disagree, then ignore me and continue to write in the way you do now or listen to the advice of people you do respect.

All I know is when I tightened up my writing, I started getting published.

I thought I explained what was required and when...I certainly spent some time trying to explain it to you.

quote:
Jan is going through the forest being hunted by wolves. I don't need to to know that he lost his wife to the plague a year ago, at that point--but when he meets a barmaid who tries to bed him and he brushes her off, that would be a good time to mention it.

No info-dump is required.

Your job as the author of your story is to write it--I write my own stories. I can give you advice, but you have to put this into practice in your own story. If you find it difficult to visualise how to drip fee information into a story without falling into a 'witholding' situation, then practice doing it.


RE: Artificial thoughts. You use a thought, " I’ve lost the one thing that matters." That is artificial because were I to think about a loved one lost for example, I would immediately see a picture of them in my mind. I would know I had lost them--it's unavoidable. To translate that into a thought for a story you can't not name them (double negative!)...it's just false.


[This message has been edited by skadder (edited April 30, 2009).]


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