posted
Thanks for reading Emma. Did you see the second version also?
quote: Redescribing? Not typical in modern fiction. You would redescribe the kiss if you wanted to focus on the erotic aspects of the book. You wouldn't if it was a story about magic people who happened to be gay.
I see what you're saying. My intent was partially to emphasize their relationship, but also to stay in Ryan's voice, sort of partially merging him with the narrator.
This story (and my others with these characters) are in no way meant to be erotica, yet at the same time the orientations and relationships of the characters are very much part of their lives. People have strongly varying tastes and...limits? When it comes to this type of thing and finding the right balance can be difficult as far as doing what I'm trying to do without overdoing it, turning people off or giving the wrong impression.
quote: I'm not sure if I can explain why, but I was bothered by "trying" and would have preferred "waving."
Interesting idea, that. I might just do it.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
quote:What I'm saying is, I've got somebody telling me it is not from Ryan's point of view. Period.
Ryan lives his life moment by moment. He never lives in overview, any more than you do. So every time you intrude to explain something to the reader the viewpoint is yours.
As Sol Stein observed, “In sum, if you want to improve your chances of publication, keep your story visible on stage and yourself mum.”
The personal pronouns you use—the person— are irrelevant, because the only one who uses them is the narrator, in talking about the character. And when you talk about them it is in the viewpoint of the speaker, not the character.
This article may clarify how viewpoint differs from POV, and why it matters.
Posts: 263 | Registered: Dec 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
The two versions give few, if any, clues Ryan is the viewpoint persona. He is a subjective character, one of the three onstage personas, a subject who is observed by a narrator-outsider looks in, who is the, or an, objective persona. Or an insider looks outward is an objective character; subjective if looks inward. Nor is Ryan the insider looks outward and inward internal observer and subject of the self.
Narrative point of view and viewpoint, often used synonymously, are not even close to hyponyms for prose arts; everyday discourse, like, yeah.
The first clue narrator-outsider looks in is the narrative point of view is that Ryan is named first, the first word, a traditional narrative method that distinguishes a protagonist as the first contestant presented to auditors, first on stage, a strong clue this is the focal actor, traditionally, among several contestants: protagonist, deuteragonist, triagonist; first, second, third contestants, up to seven agonists all told for ensemble casts.
Agonists' roles, so to speak, span objective, subjective, and influence personas, influence personas most of all: observer, subject observed, and pivotal to an action at hand actor or actors, a protagonist contestant most pivotal to an action by convention though not exclusive. Note a protagonist not overtly pivotal to an action might covertly be most transformed by an action.
Subtle variations of method and syntax define -- well, shape which whom is which at any given moment. Unconstrained role variations confuse whom is whom: viewpoint and narrative point of view glitches.
Social etiquette wants a self named last, proper noun or pronoun. Stream of consciousness and vulgar social behavior name the self first. "Me and Bobby McGee" * instead of grammar and etiquette "correctness" Bobby McGee and I. The "correct" etiquette, diction, and syntax, though, disturbs the smooth poetic accentual rhythm to a jumbled stress; plus, the Kris Kristofferson, Fred Miller, songwriters, and most expressive performer Janis Joplin original expresses aloud several de re and de se characterization features through stream of consciousness and self-promotion. (* Brief, incidental, fair-use citation of a song's title for demonstration purposes.)
Subtle, sublime, exquisite, through object case substitution "me" for subject case pronoun "I" and hyperbaton figure: inversion of conventional syntax.
De se: of the self; de re: of the thing; de dicto; of the word: linguistics principles. The corrected line above is de dicto, solely the word or words' actual surface meaning accessible, no subtext, per se. The original title's, de re and de se subtexts. Auditors crave subtext.
Last named also is a type of force increase, auxesis, that is a prose convention, opposite of scholastic essay and conventional journalism, which place most force and significant detail first: catacosmesis.
In short, Ryan named first inverts social expectations and defuses subtle prose craft functions.
The rest of the fragments then remain in an outsider looks in perspective. Kyle, Emrys, and Ryan are subject personas of an outside narrator-observer. Albeit, overall, somewhat more artful a start than previous versions.
Third-person omniscience, close emotion and psychic access, limited to one viewpoint persona's perceptions, thoughts, and emotions, locates a viewpoint persona in the observer role, at least, who an implied narrator then invisibly reports the persona's received reflections. Emotion and thought emphases, that respond to external and internal sensation perceptions and responses of the self.
One de re method for third-person, close, limited is to locate reference to a viewpoint persona in sentence object position. Stream-of-consciousness expression's discretionary idiolect grammars another; overwrought discretionary grammar idiolect here:
"Ryan smiled over at Emrys *as* _he_ picked up _his_ guitar *and* launched them into _his_ favorite part of every gig—covering “All the Young Dudes" for their encore."
First, who picked up whose guitar and whose favorite part? Three subject antecedent-pronoun referent errors. Plus, fused sentence, two conjunction errors. Apt "as" for prose is a correlation conjunction, if for a coordination conjunction, as well for correlation. Ryan's or whoever's smile and whoever picks up the guitar are separate, noncoordinate events anyway, sequential at best.
Nor can a guitar be picked up _and_ at the same simultaneous moment be launched into play, a not-simultaneous mistake. "covering", too, an unnecessary and trivial tense shift and that further extends sentence length and lengthens inapt fusion. Compound predicate sequence principle applies, or compound subject, least prose occasions for both, except . . .
An artful de re inversion places Ryan in observer position, and, therefore, sentence object location, for auxesis' emphasis. (Grammar, linguistics, rhetoric, and social etiquette in tandem, here and overall for all adept prose.)
Rhetoric stratagems: one, the "smile", ostensibly, naturally, logically, for a song start, signals let's get to it, albeit, of an affectionate yet implied imperative nature: event and characterization developments.
Who best for prose's wants so politely and ever so lightly orders? Emrys best, thus, puts Ryan in a position to observe Emrys' signals and respond: setting development, and establishes the group's "pecking order," again, characterization development, plus event. Huh! How about that, syntax itself shapes event, setting, and character movement developments.
Two, how might the guitar pickup action, and song launch, the song title, and that it is the encore finale, as well shape developments in a similar word economy? First thought, that name exposition, the song title as is, does little, if any, to express or develop, what? Substitute Fresh for "Young", and leagues leapt ahead in those regards, or hyponyms Brash, Bold, Forward, etc.
Three, that this is the finale is a wise choice, due to then the gig's length would want perhaps tedious portrayal. However, that intimates little practical reason to start at the song's start, either. In medias res instead of ab ovo, as it were, or, rather, ultimas res; respectively, in the middle of things, from the egg, at the end of things. At the song's end? Though at the ovo of the action?
Four, these folk are intimate; logically, naturally, they read each others' thoughts with, usually, a high degree of certainty. Whoever smiles, say, a wan smile, signals, Okay. Let's wrap it up. This is enough, for Pete's sake, of this yak-hole gig and audience already.
Oh the subtext glories of double or more emotional clusters, of the feral smile, then interpreted, and not a trivial throwaway. And Emrys' freighted smile foreshadows the psychic event to come, which Ryan authentically interprets is a sign of an ill-omened onset, volitionally responds to, and wraps up. Many developments develop from strong and interpreted and acted upon the mighty doubled, or more, emotional clusters of a mere smile. And forward, fast-forward motion, propelled all steam ahead.
Four, that the song part is whose? favorite and Emrys signals wrap-up, might or might not disappoint Ryan. The ambiguity is an occasion to foreshadow and delay tension relief the near-term, and longer, action to come, especially of routine interruption.
Five, then the guitar does whatever, put down [sic], ideally. Or Emrys' launches into the band's trademark show-stopper guitar riff crash, first, followed by the put down, then smooches all around, and Emrys' ischemic psychic event drops Ryan, that Ryan timely foreshadows beforehand by an eyes-open-kiss observation of Emrys' violent wince.
Either or both or all, reflect the audience and Ryan are put down: put to rest, put to a figurative death for the night, intentionally and unintentionally though not obviously insulted, all. Subtext's glories abound.
Six, before the audience goes away, before the trio puts away whatever, occasion for an authentic inevitable surprise, say, unseen Alaric tosses an item onstage, say, a loud-crash object, discordant to the finale crash. A scene's denouement action setup wants to be known by writer beforehand so that what comes before sets up for a bridge scene's outcome and tension relief, that sets up, furthermore, for the main action to unfold.
Medieval, huh? A metal gauntlet thrown down is an obvious and aptest choice, a precursor fantasy motif setup, too. Then, foreshadowed attention drawn to him, Alaric presents himself stage front to answer for the rude interruption.
The trio knows Alaric's calling card, as it is; apparel, apt to an occasion, thrown on stage is natural at certain music performances, too. And the symbolic signal, subtext, foreshadow of the gauntlet, of champions' single-combat contest challenge, furthermore, routine interruption, thrown down. Glorious!
First sentence syntax and diction, craft and publication format, too, adjustment demonstration, only, and -- well, my voice, style, and mannerisms, exaggerated for effect and to avoid usurped ownership:
//Guitar chords launched into Ryan's favorite part of every gig: "All the Fresh Dudes," their trio's riotous cover of the gay-pop hit, for the encore, their trademark grand finale crash. Kyle magic on Hammond * organ and percussion; Emrys, Fender Stratocaster * fantastic flight; and with his own lovely guy up front throaty vocals.
//Emrys flashed his wan feral smile and eye role — let's end this joy already, their mutual thought.//
(* Incidental fair-use mentions of brand-name trademarks.)
Then instruments put down, smooches, audience catcalls that celebrate the trio's allness appeals, Ryan dropped, then pregnant-pause silence interrupted by a gauntlet thrown down on stage, then Alaric explains his rude, messenger scene interruptions: cause of Emrys' wan and wants to be feral smile, Ryan dropped, and the gauntlet thrown down. "They" abducted Emrys' sister. Occasion then for the main action!
Rationale: Subtext, subversive preparation, inoffensive, and fair warning of gay-fiction genre, theme, and foreshadow introductions; event, setting and milieu, and character introductions; subliminal sensation, thought, emotion, urgency, and pre-positioned psychic ability introductions; bridge complication-conflict, auxesis, climax progressions; tone, tenor, register, narrative point of view introductions, the guitar and song's performance, emotion, and character developed, through appositive compound subject phrases; even the empty line break an apt, subtle jump transition signal of time elapsed.
Emrys now unequivocal subject character; observer Ryan now located in sentence object position and de re foregrounded as the unequivocal insider inside looks outward and inward viewpoint persona of third-person, close -- somewhat -- limited narrative point of view through his received external sensations and external, to him, and internal thought expressions and emotions, none of the now invisible narrator's at all, though occasion left open for narrator insertions if apt. In an apt word economy, albeit, apt leisure and exaggerated attention lavished as well for what matters at the moment to Ryan and the immediate and to-come actions, from my impressions of what's given, anyway.
posted
Hi Merlion. I don't know if my suggestions actually would help that much. I was just trying to, well, long story. Make it look more professional to a professional, I guess.
Just to make sure I am clear:
If you ever read a horse book, you will find a lot of horse things that really have nothing to do with the plot. And they will bore you, but horse lovers really like that.
Same thing for male-to-male romantic attractions. Ssome books will appeal to those people who like that. I have more interest in that than horses, but not a lot more, so that might be a turn off. It's not that one sentence makes a difference -- it does not -- it's that you have that sentence at the start of your book.
And if it's a story about three heroes who happen to be gay, that's no problem, and if the romantic interests (and even sex) get woven into the plot, then I can like that.
And of course, I am not your typical reader; I've devoted part of my life to finding and eliminating repetition.
I am now casting a curse on you so that you cannot rewrite your start until you finish your story.
posted
Extrinsic, first let me say thank you for finally acquiescing to my frequently requested request to actually give me some suggestions on how I might do a thing differently in a direct and decipherable way, instead of just deluging me with incomprehensible linguistical techno-babble, as if you were some sort of literary version of a NERV bridge-bunny in the midst of an Angel attack.
That being said, you still did do that as well, to the point of making my eyes cross. I understood a little of it though and while I don't wish to argue it at length, I will say 2 things. I can't think offhand of anything I've read-especially not in genre fiction-that even begins to follow the level of in-depth language science you're going into. In particular...
quote: The two versions give few, if any, clues Ryan is the viewpoint persona. He is a subjective character, one of the three onstage personas, a subject who is observed by a narrator-outsider looks in, who is the, or an, objective persona. Or an insider looks outward is an objective character; subjective if looks inward. Nor is Ryan the insider looks outward and inward internal observer and subject of the self.
I'd never heard any of this stuff, even from you, until these last few weeks. I'm not saying its "wrong", I'm just saying my second thing-I'm writing creative fiction, not a doctoral thesis. I admire and respect your knowledge, but I do not feel the need to get this technical. Typically I'm looking for general-use definitions, not PHD-level ones.
All that being said, I rather like your suggestion of starting it out with the opening notes of the song...I may just use that.
Emma: Your suggestions are definitely helpful to me and I do hear and understand what you're saying. I know that there are some audiences-not so many now as in the past but still some-who will automatically dislike/lose interest in/whatever these stories just because of the rainbowness. Like I said, its a balancing act, and each person's input on it helps me weigh that balance. The reverse is true also-in fact I notice there are several gay-themed short fiction markets operating right now. But just don't ever think I'm ignoring you-I am definitely not.
I am afraid that, due to my very special relationship with the Goddess of Magic I have spell resistance that is quite unbeatable by anyone other than her. But don't worry, I'm pretty good at multitasking.
So, basically as I see it, most of this "POV" related feedback I'm getting isn't really about point of view, it's about emotion and personality and some of what I'd call voice or character voice. What several people are essentially telling me is, they want me to present more of Ryan's thoughts/feelings/emotions about stuff and infuse the prose with his personality. I have already tried to do some of that...and doing to much carries with it its own dangers of being too much, or of a kind distasteful to any given reader, or presented in not their preferred way (similar to the circumstances that started me on this story.) It's also what I was trying to do in the "Purple Haze" opening with Ryan's...unusual wardrobe choices, that most people didn't like. All that being said, I may very well need to do some more of that here. It is part of my intention with these stories. I got a hold of some Christopher Moore novels during my absence and his style and approach to stories that are humorous but still serious and filled with social commentary and emotional weight, was part of what got me started on these "Em and the gang" stories.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
MerlionEmrys posted: "present more of Ryan's thoughts/feelings/emotions about stuff and infuse the prose with his personality."
And Ryan's "stuff" external and internal, personal visual, aural, tactile and, if apt, olfactoral, and gustatoral sensations. Pivotal sensations.
Nuances of Damon Knight's forty-plus, and others more, narrative points of view inventory are a years' long independent study launched from a few pages content and a six-by-seven table, somewhat directed by vicarious instructors, such as Knight, among many others.
Third-person, close, limited but one of Knight's several, and, overall, a vogue contemporary preference of all seven genre canons. Its study includes Hatrack fragments and responses, somewhat for others' benefits, if inclined, more so mine own.
Thanks for a fragment into which I could sink fingernails and incisors, scalpels, bone saws, pipe wrenches, feather dusters, heavy hammers, and emerald-crusted tweezers for a total craft flense and utter vivisection, and it little the worse for the wear and tear.
"Chewing the furniture. Characters [or writers] who are over-emoting for their situations. The term is adapted from the theater, where it is used to describe poor actors who ham it up. (CSFW: David Smith)
"Chrome. From the chrome on an automobile. Scenic [or onstage] detail which has no plot significance but brings a place, character or period to life. (CSFW: David Smith)
"Microwaving the soufflé. A tendency to rush past important setup material in the author’s haste to get to the payoff [or incitement event, etc]. Generally leaves the reader feeling frustrated on two counts: (1) the setup, being rushed, is uninteresting, and (2) the payoff, being insufficiently set up, is not earned. (CSFW: David Smith)
"Reality is filtered through an extra lens. Instead of saying “rain poured down” the author writes “I felt the rain pour down”. A story always has one filter — author telling reader — and good authors generally try to make the author as unobtrusive as possible. Adding this second filter — author telling character to tell reader — is not only uneconomical, it is also often intrusive." ("Being a Glossary of Terms Useful in Critiquing Science Fiction," edited by Clarion workshops' David Smith, SFWA hosted.)
Over-emotes tend to entail many chromic facial expression descriptions, especially of eyes, and looks, glances, etc., extra lens filters; and tension setup wants leisure lavished, tension relief delay, too; tension entrained of an apt pace -- timing.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm, yes I can see that to a degree I suppose-however, I would point out that the tweaks in Version 3 are based on your suggestions, extrinsic, and you were the one giving Em a "wan, feral smile" and whatnot
What is it then, the eyebrows? Like I said, I can see it...but, it is in character for Ryan and I was in fact striving to be "deeper" in his "persona" or whatever you kids are calling it these days.
I think though that I have the basic structure down now and its just a question of finding the right "crunch versus fluff" balance, or something like that.
I do like the "that actually looked like a wizard" part because it avoids the whole "medieval" issue, adds some more genre tag and let's you know he stands out. And later, it plays off the fact that Emrys, who is actually way older and more powerful, doesn't look at all like the stereotypical wizard.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts guys, I think I've almost got it...and I'm also making good progress on the actual story.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bridge scenes are part of routine interrupted shapes. Those bridge a setup action to a main action, and scene transition gaps in general. Bridges span gaps, chasms, gorges, rivers, marshes, scenes, actions, music scores' starts and refrains into body themes, etc.
The fragment -- many or most or all your fragments are routine interruption bridge scenes (victimism, too), tension setup scenes. This one is also a gathering and visitation shape. Gathering shapes entail a large group visitation, for instance, a music performance ritual, emphasis on "ritual." Management of the mass mob without a population explosion bog down details the audience as a group entity, and as well entails dramatic interaction between a focal agonist and the mob. Why the "catcall" suggestion, an economy of a few words that develops a persona characterization of the audience.
In other words, a full realization of the whole scene's dramatic event, setting and milieu, and persona "telling," revelatory details.
Likewise, though Emrys experiences the visitation shape, that lacks premonition and portent fullness realization for the fragment through Ryan. Like with the ofuda, some focal activity of the focal agonist is an occasion for that portentous development from the outset. For Ryan, though through Emrys and the music performance, Ryan's part and impressions of Kyle, Emrys, the instruments, vocals, the music overall, setting details, and the audience, and Ryan's personal centrality to all of it.
I'd suggested the song itself is the pivotal fount for all that, includes the audience's catcalls for the smooches on stage, ostensibly, a trademark part of the trio's finale and group appeal and aesthetic, which is then occasion for interruption tension relief delay setup.
Any one given detail or a conflation of several may serve the main action portentous setup of an abducted kin persona otherwise. Occasion for leisure lavished on full realization development both manifest physical and aesthetic detail, then, before Alaric's visitation, as is, forced and rushed arrival, in other words, occasion for timely, judicious tension entrainment. Alaric's arrival not even in the fragment an occasion for readers to turn the page and find out what happens why, further delayed tension relief a few more paragraphs of the next page.
That natural tension entrainment skill -- many writers work from intuition and discovery trial and error, yet is a detail and timing skill that can be developed and mastered, and essential for dramatic prose appeals.
[Edit: "Edges of Ideas" and incidentalism's edges are a strategy for tension entrainment and full realization. What seems to be a priority surface is actually incidental and superficial, superliminal text. What seems incidental is actually most pertinent, is liminal subtext's edges (emotional), and a subliminal subtext edge (moral), of course. At the least, then, readers' intellects engage in attempts to decipher emotional and moral codes on parade. From intellectual engagement to full emotional and moral engagement transpires in an eye blink if few or no disturbances intrude.]
posted
Okay so you've gone all bridge bunny on me again and sadly I have neither a Dr. Akagi nor a Major Kitsuragi to translate for me, I'm going to have to attempt to puzzle this out myself. Bear with me.
quote: Management of the mass mob without a population explosion bog down details the audience as a group entity, and as well entails dramatic interaction between a focal agonist and the mob. Why the "catcall" suggestion, an economy of a few words that develops a persona characterization of the audience.
Why do I care about characterizing the audience? Not being facetious.
quote: Likewise, though Emrys experiences the visitation shape, that lacks premonition and portent fullness realization for the fragment through Ryan. Like with the ofuda, some focal activity of the focal agonist is an occasion for that portentous development from the outset. For Ryan, though through Emrys and the music performance, Ryan's part and impressions of Kyle, Emrys, the instruments, vocals, the music overall, setting details, and the audience, and Ryan's personal centrality to all of it.
~Head explodes~
quote: Any one given detail or a conflation of several may serve the main action portentous setup of an abducted kin persona otherwise. Occasion for leisure lavished on full realization development both manifest physical and aesthetic detail, then, before Alaric's visitation, as is, forced and rushed arrival, in other words, occasion for timely, judicious tension entrainment. Alaric's arrival not even in the fragment an occasion for readers to turn the page and find out what happens why, further delayed tension relief a few more paragraphs of the next page.
~Using amazing powers to reassemble head~
So, let's see if I am following. You're saying I should basically spend all 13 lines on the setup and not even bother trying to put the interruption in till a little later? (I changed Alaric to Olren caused I remembered there is another character in the story named Allaria-much too similar.)
quote: That natural tension entrainment skill -- many writers work from intuition and discovery trial and error, yet is a detail and timing skill that can be developed and mastered, and essential for dramatic prose appeals.
I'm not sure I know what that is, but I do know that most things are, at the end of the day, primarily learned through trial and error together with occasionally epiphanies.
quote: [Edit: "Edges of Ideas" and incidentalism's edges are a strategy for tension entrainment and full realization. What seems to be a priority surface is actually incidental and superficial, superliminal text. What seems incidental is actually most pertinent, is liminal subtext's edges (emotional), and a subliminal subtext edge (moral), of course. At the least, then, readers' intellects engage in attempts to decipher emotional and moral codes on parade. From intellectual engagement to full emotional and moral engagement transpires in an eye blink if few or no disturbances intrude.]
Whatever you say (within reason.)
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
The main issue most fragment posters come up against with the submission limit of 13 lines is they try and reach a dramatic pay-off so their story fragment seems exciting and dramatic. All they do achieve is a rushed and contrived moment which pleases no one.
posted
Why care about audience characterization -- the show is a live performance before an audience, not a television broadcast to a faceless audience. Undeveloped and unrealized get-together characterization is a white statue syndrome, similar to white room, except here the audience isn't intimated or implied marble statues, rather a mere specter of imagination that misses the page.
If the scene wants thirteen lines or twenty-five or a hundred to fully realize the tension setup, for reader engagement effect, then that's what it wants. Tension entrainment, too, could attend at clause or even word level segments, among, between, alongside, congruent to a larger parcel. A rare few succeed at tension entrainment within a line or two: William Gibson, Neuromancer, first line, "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." For example.
"All this happened, more or less." Slaughterhouse-Five, Kurt Vonnegut. "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen. An investigation of literature's best opening lines evinces artful appeal first-sentence tension entrainment setups.
Grumpy old guy seconded -- rushed and forced tension setups to get to a dramatic incitement payoff are a common fragment doesn't work for me. Melodrama.
An analysis of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" for its tension entrainment setup, first thirteen lines, realizes even an in ultimas res, at the end of the thing, start lavishes natural leisure realization of tension entrainment setup, for erasure of contrivance appearances. Compared and contrasted to an in medias res and ab ovo start, tension entrainment knows no distinction irrespective of start type in those regards.
This fragment attempts an ab ovo start, from the start of the thing, the routine before the abduction, not per se from the egg; the egg, as it were, is the everyday routine at the outset. Near infinite ways to do a start routine and entrain tension simultaneously, at least contemporaneously. Sequentially linear least of all overall for prose's dramatic arts appeals, except at sequential word, phrase, clause, or sentence level tension entrainment, which could also be simultaneous or contemporaneous at the same time.
Head explosion for the paradox of any-which-a-way multidimensional potential start, ab ovo, tension entrainment? At once sequential, contemporaneous, and simultaneous ab ovo, in medias res, and in ultimas res tension entrainment? Uh-huh, for worthwhile prose.
For me, at first, I intuitively entrained tension, noted it, studied the phenomena in depth, then, now, work to master the craft skill mischief of invisible though pertinent tension setup, follow-through, and delivery. Trial and error and adjustment.
These above words and modes and methods from across prose culture arts and sciences. What we writers have, words, no more, no less, to do the does work for readers' effect sakes.
quote: The main issue most fragment posters come up against with the submission limit of 13 lines is they try and reach a dramatic pay-off so their story fragment seems exciting and dramatic. All they do achieve is a rushed and contrived moment which pleases no one.
quote: Grumpy old guy seconded -- rushed and forced tension setups to get to a dramatic incitement payoff are a common fragment doesn't work for me. Melodrama.
And yet, the main genesis of this fragment was the fact that on basically all of my other ones, one of the chief criticisms was, put in various ways, the lack of an inciting incident or some sort of "dramatic pull" or in short a "hook" of tension or conflict or something like that.
One of my main points for years has been, don't worry about creating a "hook", just write the beginning of your story. When one does that, people want a hook, and when one creates a hook, its called melodrama
Of course its more complicated than that and the obvious response is that the "hook" or inciting whatever the heck just isn't executed well, but I hope perhaps you can see where I'm coming from and why, in my better moments, I'm guided by the principle that you can never please everyone, so at least start by pleasing yourself.
quote: Head explosion for the paradox of any-which-a-way multidimensional potential start, ab ovo, tension entrainment? At once sequential, contemporaneous, and simultaneous ab ovo, in medias res, and in ultimas res tension entrainment? Uh-huh, for worthwhile prose.
My head exploded because I don't know most of the words and terms you use. All I have to go on is what I can guess based on prefixes and suffixes and whatnot that I do know. Plus the fact that you string them together in ways that I'm even less familiar with and that make my brain hurt, so that half the time I don't know which parts of your sentences are the subjects the other words are referring to, let alone being able to figure out which parts of my prose they refer to or what they are supposed to mean in the context of critiquing it/my story (or at least this tiny part thereof.) And that's to say nothing of the streams of quotes mostly from people I don't know or references to material that I do know but often have no idea what semblance or lack thereof your trying to draw to whatever I have written.
I don't mind looking up some words I don't know, but when I don't know more than half the words and when they are arranged confusingly...all I can do is try to intuit meaning from what I do understand and see if I can slowly get you to just tell me what you mean.
I understand you are who you are, but it is still frustrating, especially now that the population has imploded.
Anyway, right now my main worry about this story is that its central plot might be a bit of a lame duck, but I could be wrong, or maybe other aspects will cover for it. We'll see.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many ways to develop reader engagement. A rushed and forced excitement event is a manipulation gimmick, melodrama, and alienates readers. Gustav Freytag, Technique of the Drama, observes an incitement incident may present full realization as late as a fourth of word count, meantime, all the while drives toward that second pivotal event of a narrative.
First pivotal event -- a dramatic excitement developed to proactively act upon a want-problem, often refused at first. Further and escalated victimization wanted for inertial resistance overcome before proactive action begins, an incitement event to act.
The Freytag pyramid marks approximate locations per word count of five acts and nine pivotal events. Peculiar how many worthwhile narratives manage all of those. More than a few mediocre narratives do not.
A challenge and struggle is to use such a structure so that readers are unaware of its formula. Thus, reader effect at one and the same time trails and anticipates dramatic movement (dramatic irony); reader effect peaks and catches dramatic movement at a denouement act start.
posted
And I have come to the view that each major character should have their own pyramid that is, narratively speaking, slightly out of sync with the dramatic pyramid and each of the other major characters. Opportunities for enhanced dramatic tension and conflict increase geometrically.
Of course, this can only work if you have a story utilising limited omniscient POV.
Phil.
[ December 12, 2018, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged |
posted
That is a worthwhile and acute insight. A saw-tooth pyramids range of dramatic movement. An example of excellence: "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place," Ernest Hemingway, 1933. One viewpoint persona emerges central to the dramatic movement yet several differ for the pivotal timing of their anticipations, apprehensions, urges, and complication-conflicts to the central persona's.
The "Nada" prayer is especially a limited, close stream-of-consciousness appeal. At first, though, a near-remote distance start, dramatic movement of narrative distance, too.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I'll leave the pyramids safely in Egypt. Well, and Central/South America, but I prefer my pyramids old school.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
English BFA creative writing graduation behind me, assigned writing texts of little effectiveness, more so mere busy work for little, if any, point. Prose reading by then a dreary chore anymore, a great loss deeply felt, rather than the enjoyments of a lifetime pastime passion.
I had little use then for more writing texts. Saw no way out of the ashes of prose reading appreciation, let alone my writing ambitions' ashes, too, multiple decline letters (thank-you, no-thank-you rejection slips).
Tried a writing text: deep, obtuse, no declaration what its point or topic is. Percy Lubbock, The Craft of Fiction, one of the early Chicago School of rhetoricians. Read once, twice, had read or read the full texts of the analyzed novels, still no clue what the central topics is.
Oh, Wikipedia observes the topic is narrative point of view. What Wiki-it-up-and-junk of some use? Likewise, other tertiary discourse analysts observe the central topic is narrative point of view. The primary discourse, the novels; Lubbock's, the secondary; analysts of Lubbock's text, tertiary. A conversation about narrative point of view.
Before that, Damon Knight's observations about narrative point of view and viewpoint, Orson Scott Card's, too, to me, were beyond easy reach. Reread those, contrasted and compared the several. Oh, the opaque drapes became lucent veils.
I thought citations from The Poetics of Aristotle -- read and studied now a few dozen passes -- in writing classes would spark meaningful discussion, at least help me understand. Nope. Several instructors panned it, fellow workshoppers elsewhere, too; classmates thought me a poser. Conclusion, none had read the text, never mind studied it, couldn't hold forth intelligently, nor care a wit otherwise, nor could anyone infer its substance for writing purposes: causation. Likewise Gustav Freytag, Technique of the Drama: tension.
Two narrative dimensions, huh? How about a third? Must be a third if two. Perhaps this phenomena called conflict? Half a concept, if that. Readers and writers know it when they read it. Define and explain it? Nope. Same with drama, plot, theme, rhetoric, yada, no useful definitions or explanations from writing instructors or peer writers nor much anywhere in one or so convenient text places.
Webster's definition for denouement held the access key: complication the third dimension. Then that a hyponym for complication is want-problem motivations; likewise conflict: stakes risked; both in tandem, plus tone's emotional-moral attitudes.
Several many more writing texts, deeper, more obtuse, Wayne Booth, Seymour Chatman, Erasmus, John Gardner, L. Rust Hills, Noah Lukeman, Ursula K. Le Guin, Henry James, Edith Wharton, Edgar Allan Poe, George Orwell, ad nauseam and infinitum, some many of worth, some not, and many test bench narratives studied in concert, and revisits to those who came before, each more accessible for having read the several. Also study of advanced grammar and rhetoric, irony, satire, sarcasm, subtext, forms and conventions, movements and schools, plus, plus. Oh, now I see.
At the least, passion for reading pastimes restored and enhanced to an advanced satisfaction degree. Exquisite. A creative writing master's in the meantime. Enhancements for my editor profession, too, and sound apprehensions of the miasmas of the public agora discourse and chaos. New New Year's resolution, onward now to application of it all for innovative yet broadly accessible prose appeals.
Long-wind short, after all, the study effort was worth the while of many midnight candles burnt, despite my earlier utter refusals of study of the giants who came before and upon whose shoulders I would now stand.
posted
MerlionEmrys, the two small insights I have mentioned, both here and elsewhere, of inducing either anticipation or apprehension in the reader and, as extrinsic called it, a saw-tooth of dramatic pyramids, took me 12 months of study, but also, many late nights of reflection and contemplation.
The result? I now understand everything that is needed to create an engaging start to a story. Not that such starts will please everyone, just a majority.
Phil.
Added after some thought: It seems strange that reading Percy Lubbock's, The Craft of Fiction, should be a decisive contributing catalyst for narrative understanding in two such contrasting souls. For me it was Lubbock's exploration of Madame Bovary by Flaubert which ignited sudden comprehension: Seek out the character who can best tell the tale. And if that means you need to create new characters, create them.
[ December 13, 2018, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged |
quote: MerlionEmrys, the two small insights I have mentioned, both here and elsewhere, of inducing either anticipation or apprehension in the reader and, as extrinsic called it, a saw-tooth of dramatic pyramids, took me 12 months of study, but also, many late nights of reflection and contemplation.
I'm just saying that my manner of writing and personality don't really lend themselves to structure models and such. They are quite interesting and can be useful, and sometimes I will say to myself, "Okay, Self, we're going to write a story according to this or that specific framework" but usually, I get an idea of some sort and proceed to try and figure out the best thing to do with/best way to express that idea, concept or inspiration. In these more frequent latter cases, trying to also get it to conform to the pyramid structure, or any of the other ones I've heard of, just creates more headache (although on other occasions, such schemes, even though I didn't follow them, have offered some sort of inspiration for getting over one hurdle or other in the process.)
I recognize their value, they just usually aren't the best fit for me.
I have also read a couple of books on writing, and I want to read the OSC one about the MICE thing, since it actually acknowledges and is I guess even largely about the fact of their being many different types of stories with different foci. But in my experience, books on writing are mostly just another writer telling you how they write, and that again can be useful, but since I don't believe in silver bullets...
Also, I can get a lot of the same thing here (especially in the old days when there were tons of us.)
quote: The result? I now understand everything that is needed to create an engaging start to a story. Not that such starts will please everyone, just a majority.
And I'm sincerely happy for you. But remember, you and I have extremely different views on most of the things contained or implied in those two sentences-up to and including whether or not some of them even exist.
Each to their own and each in their own way.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
G.R.R. Martin's forte is melodrama, coincidence, unconstrained sequence segments, and simple plots, shortfalls of subtext and foreshadows, too; that is, simple narratives and simple plots' dramatic movement entails few, if any, substantial and apt dramatic pivots due to profound and sublime complication-conflict revelations and reversals; respectively, peripeteia and anagnorisis, hallmarks of complex plots and exquisite reader appeals.
More than a few television situation comedies and dramas, Scriptural parables, folktales and fables, role-play games, and fan and slash fiction also are of the same simple-plot, etc., sensibilities.
MICE and Three Questions Readers Ask detailed in, Orson Scott Card, Characters & Viewpoint, Writers Digest Books, 2010. Low $$.
posted
OSC talks about his M.I.C.E. story categories in both of his how-to-write books, but he takes different approaches to them in each, so they are worth reading for the approaches. (I found the approach in his HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY more helpful because in that one he discusses story structure.)
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
But, kdw, MerlionEmrys doesn't believe in story structure, if what he's been saying is true. Apparently his mind and writing style doesn't lend itself to that sort of thing.
Mind you, he's quite happy to trawl the minds of those who have expended a great deal of time, effort and thought gaining the insights which help solve his narrative issues. He, it appears, prefers the shorter route to understanding; asking other people to solve his problems for him at no cost. By this I mean investing the time and effort learning this stuff for himself.
quote: But, kdw, MerlionEmrys doesn't believe in story structure, if what he's been saying is true. Apparently his mind and writing style doesn't lend itself to that sort of thing.
Mind you, he's quite happy to trawl the minds of those who have expended a great deal of time, effort and thought gaining the insights which help solve his narrative issues. He, it appears, prefers the shorter route to understanding; asking other people to solve his problems for him at no cost. By this I mean investing the time and effort learning this stuff for himself.
You mean sort of like what one does by reading a book that someone spent a great deal of time, thought and effort learning the content of and then writing?
I didn't say I don't believe in story structure. I said I usually just try to write what's in my head in whatever way that seems to work for that idea, rather than 1) starting with a particular structure scheme such as the pyramid deal or one of the various others and trying to create something that fits it or 2)trying to shoehorn an idea or inspiration into such a structure.
The main thing, as I remember, that I was referring to not believing in was the idea that the majority of readers only like a single type and style of story-I accredit the majority with broader tastes than that. I'm sure there were other things as well but that was foremost in my mind.
I also specifically mentioned wanting to read the OSC book focused on the MICE concept, since I've gotten the impression it's a little broader than many writing books.
Again, as I said, each to their own and each in their own way.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
quote: OSC talks about his M.I.C.E. story categories in both of his how-to-write books, but he takes different approaches to them in each, so they are worth reading for the approaches. (I found the approach in his HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY more helpful because in that one he discusses story structure.)
I actually didn't know (or knew and forgot) that he'd written two books on writing, thanks for mentioning that. The MICE thing appeals to me as someone who writes a lot of different types of stories. I'm putting How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy on my Christmas list.
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
The thing about a structural approach, MerlionEmrys, is that you don't need to start with it.
Many writers do as you do
quote:to write what's in my head in whatever way that seems to work for that idea
in their first drafts, and then consider structure in determining what would work best with what they have drafted.
In subsequent drafts, applying structure as it fits their stories may help the stories to work better and make more sense to readers.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's very true. I also do a lot more pre-planning/outlining with the basic idea in recent years than I did in the early days of my writing-this story here is the first I've written without that in ages. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
I also find that I often have trouble relating terms like "Full contention revelation event" or "Action fall act" to actual in-story events or whatever, so typically I think in terms of "what would these characters do/what best presents this idea/what do I want to have happen."
I actually find story structures and narrative theory quite interesting, but my hackles often get raised because any given one is often-by no means always but often-presented as "the one" which rubs me the wrong way(as you know.)
I like the trope and structure jargon terms the folks at TV Tropes come up with. It tends to be more descriptive (and funny.)
Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2018
| IP: Logged |
posted
Aristotle causation and Freytag tension are common narrative features, most common, all but universal across the opus. Exceptions are few, far between, and rarely of all but narrow niche appeal slivers.
Several other narrative features are likewise all but universal: complication-conflict and tone, event, setting and milieu, character and persona, and narrator, for examples.
Otherwise, multiple, exponential, and near infinite options available for apt and dramatic choice: narrative point of view's several dozens, made more numerous if related facets attend, too, (tone, moral value, etc.), for example.
A challenge and often enough accomplished is timely, judicious incorporation of each and all the above yet covertly arranged and of a comprehensible semblance to natural, real-world circumstances, irrespective of fantastic motifs.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, so I finally finished this beast. It's probably not that great and may serve almost more as an outline-it's probably full of plot holes. Anyone care to read it, help me whip it into shape? Crit exchange maybe?
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
