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Author Topic: Getting Started
Ljau
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Hiyo all, i have been writing down ideas for a long time on a story that i've been very anxious to write, and only now, that i believe i have enough "ideas", do i being the process. But i have a few questions before i set out.

A.) Currently, i use typical ol' Wordpad to write my story. Are there any programs out there i could download to make things easier, to know how many pages i have so far? I know a book page is significantly smaller than a standard size piece of notebook paper.

B.) I have absolutly no problem developing ideas for books/short stories, but i do have problems developing something to give them bulk. For example, i could probabbly pop out a ten page short story, but i want to be able to write a 300 page book. What kind of details should i add? Character conflicts, Character histories, i am totally lost and i need help big time in this area


Thanks
Ljau


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Augustine
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A) I wouldn't be so concerned with the program you are using so long as you are able to format your manuscript correctly. This means you use Courier, 12-point, double space, 1-inch margins, etc. The best place to go to learn about manuscript submission is: www.speculations.com/format.htm . Unfortunately, I don't think Word Pad gives you the option to double space your work, which is a problem. I would see about acquiring either Microsoft Word or Word Perfect. Personally, I use Microsoft Word, write my story in Times New Roman, single space, and then go back and reformat the story to standard manuscript form before I send it out.

A standard manuscript page has about 250 words, which means that your average novel-length manuscript will be between 350-500 pages. (FYI - you're standard book page has about 350 words, so a 285-page novel is about a 100,000-word novel.)

B) Your problem is my problem, too. Have you ever heard of Dramatica? It is a program to help people develop their story ideas. I don't find it too helpful, but I did learn one thing. There must be at least FOUR story lines in a story that's novel length: the Overall Story, the Main Character Story, the Impact Character Story, and the Main Character/Impact Character Story. Let's use Ender's Game as an example.

The Overall Story is that which EVERYBODY in the story is concerned with. In Ender's Game, everybody is concerned with the buggers and how to defeat them.

The Main Character story is the story of the main character--it's Ender's story. It begins when the monitor is taken from him and ends when he realizes his mission is to be Speaker for the Dead. To be more precise, it's about his development into a military genius, his longing for acceptance, his longing for friendship, his relationship with Peter and Valentine, etc. Notice how much more complicated the Main Character story is from the Overall Story.

The Impact Character is the character who pushes the main character forward, who forces the main character to face his or her problems. In Ender's Game, the Impact Character is Colonel Graff, even though he and Ender hardly see each other. Note that Colonel Graff has his own story--namely, he relationship with his superiors, fear of possible court marshal, etc. Thus, there is an Impact Character story line.

Finally, you have the Main Character/Impact Character Story--namely, the relationship between the main character and impact character. In Ender's Game, it is Graff who decides to put Ender in situations where he can't rely on an adult to save him. Also, it was Graff who picked Ender out of the group of boys early in the novel so that he would feel isolated.

Of course, Ender's Game has a second (minor) story going on--the one between Valentine and Peter. The Overall Story is concerned with the Warsaw Pact. The Main Character is Valentine. The Impact Character is Peter. And their relationship is the main character/impact character story.

So, then, how do you "beef up" you novels? It seems to me that you should figure out what the Overall Story is about, what the Main Character is about, what the Impact Character is about, and what the Main/Impact Character's relationship is about. Also, you should look to your minor characters and begin applying the same principles. If you get these stories planted firmly in your mind, then when you write the story, you'll have a deep well from which to draw.

I hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by Augustine (edited October 24, 2001).]


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JK
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What Augustine says is similar to OSC's MICE quotient; that being that a story possesses qualities that identifies it as one or more 'types' of story, Mileu, Idea, Character, or Event. I recommend that you read anything OSC has to say on writing, he's very helpful.
As for 'beefing up' your stories? Well, maybe I'm too much a purist, but I believe that beefing up a story is a bad attitude to take towards writing. Get too caught up in the number of words you've written, and you won't realise that a lot of what you're writing simply isn't necessary; it's dead weight. Stories do perfectly well without that, if not better. A good example is a story written with and without adejectives. Adjectives have their place, but too many deadens the sentence and makes the reading a chore. Size (or in this case, length) isn't everything.
As for how to write long fiction (a different question altogether), the problem is coming up with a Mileu, Idea, Character, or Event that can last for 80,000 words - the best, of course, can come up with all four for the same story and make them sing in harmony. This isn't as hard as it sounds - in fact, my problem is that I can't leave any idea I have alone until it's too big! All you need to do is take your idea, whichever category it fits into, and think about it. If the story is about X, what came before X? What made X what it is? How does X relate to Y and Z around it? What impact does X have on people? Ask questions. Believe me, when your curiosity is satisfied, you'll know too much to fit into 80,000 words!
One last thing before I finish rambling: never buy software to write your book for you. I'd like to find the bloke who thought that was a good idea and slap him silly.
JK

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PaganQuaker
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Hi,

While I use Microsoft Word (and so does almost everyone I know), you can almost certainly get a passable, free word processor on the Web. Try going to www.shareware.com, selecting your platform (Windows, Mac, etc.), and typing in the phrase "word processor." You might have to sift through a fair number of entries and try a few programs, but you're likely to find one that will let you set margins, double space, do word counts, etc. for free or very cheaply.

Regarding beefing up a story into a novel: I'm also a little spooked by talking about beefing up a story to that length, and I agree with what's been said: Keep asking questions about the story and coming up with new answers, developing new ideas, etc. As to a framework, you might want to get a rough idea of how many chapters you're looking at; for me, I usually write chapters of 2,000-6,000 words, so an average book for me might be 30 chapters. If you make a list and start filling in a few details about each chapter (WordPad would be a perfectly OK place to do this), you can start getting an idea of the overall arch of the story.

I found the idea of the four stories within one story interesting but limited. On first glance it seems to me like any other good formula: You can make a lot of good stories out of it, but it's not necessarily the way to make every good story. Still, if it works for you, go for it. There are other models like that, too, some of them quite useful.

An example of somewhere where the thing doesn't apply: Romeo and Juliet. Who's the main character? Well, there are two of them. Who impels them to act? Well, Tybalt and Mercutio have some effect on Romeo, as does the Friar, but none of those is present through the whole story. Certainly Romeo impels Juliet to act and vice-versa, but that's not quite the same model. And remember that far from being experimental with his plots, Shakespeare tended to use time-honored stories, in this case Pyramus and Thisbe. So my feeling is that I should feel free to try any formula I want, but not to feel like it's the only way to write a story.

Luc


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Cosmi
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formulas! oi!

i suppose that sort of thing works well, and i must admitt i'm finding alot of what you guys are talking about in my own writing, now that i think about it.

hmm... the thing is, i think a story develops more naturally if you let those little "extras"* develop on their own. my suggestion would be to just write your novel. don't think about length or word processor selection (you can move to anything from wordpad later) until you have your first version down. you may just find your potential extras in the process. i, at least, find that after the first version of anything i write i discover at least a couple "untold stories" i didn't know existed before. but there they are. it may take several versions before you have the length you want, but by then you'll be more concerned with fitting in everything you want to say!

of course, this may not work for everyone. it's really a judgement call...

JMHO

TTFN & lol

Cosmi

*though i call them extras, i am by no means saying they are not integral to many novels--including my own works-in-progress


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Augustine
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I would disagree that the four story lines are a formula (even thought it sounds like one). Look at it in another way. Every story has a main character, and he or she has a relationship with another person (usually more than one, but if more than one, then one will usually stand out as primary). That seems to me to be mandatory. Now, each of these people will have their own histories and wants and passions et cetera. And the characters will come into conflict with one another. Also, each story must have a problem to be solved (I do realized that not all stories have problems, so please don't make a silly reply showing why this doesn't apply to every story).

What the four story line do is to help you keep things straight. What is the goal of the story? Who are the characters and what are their stories? Finally, what is the central issue in their relationships? This doesn't mean they can't have other issues, but what is the one issue that drives their relationship.

I add that the more complex the story, the more complicated it is to see how these story lines work. But I want to note that I said that each story needs to have AT LEAST four story lines. The more complex the story, the more story lines they'll have, and hence, the longer the stories will be.

Finally <grin> I didn't say to fluff up your story, I said to beef it up--to give it substance. And substance comes from the story itself, not from needless words. So, get it straight <grin>.

[This message has been edited by Augustine (edited October 25, 2001).]


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PaganQuaker
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Hi Augustine,

The reason I would assert that the four tracks approach is a formula(although I'm finding it very useful) is that it suggests that there must be a story with the main character; that there must be a stand-out supporting character; that the relationship between the main character and the supporting character must have a story to itself; and that it must have a story that doesn't deal with the character (the overall story). None of these needs to be true, although as a rule one or two would be and certainly there are any number of great stories that have all four. But some exceptions:

Gulliver's Travels doesn't really have a main character. But what about Gulliver? He's a McGuffin: All kinds of things happen to him, but the story isn't really about him. It's about these strange lands, which in turn are a satirical treatment of Swift's contemporary society.

Robinson Crusoe doesn't have an "impact character." Sure, there's Friday, but he doesn't drive Crusoe's actions: Crusoe's situation does.

An example of a story where there are a main character and an impact character but the interaction between them is a non-issue is the Lord of the Rings. Frodo is as close as anyone comes to being the main character, and Sauron is the one who ultimately is setting the situation for Frodo to act, but Frodo and Sauron never have any direct contact or relationship. Sure, there's Gollum, but he's not the impact character: He didn't forge the ring, and he's not trying to take over Middle Earth. Frodo would have stayed home if all there was to deal with was Gollum.

As to an example that doesn't have a story apart from the main character's story, try the really great novel _She's Come Undone_ by Wally Lamb. The only thing that happens in the novel is the change to the character. Nothing else of any import is happening.

And I don't think this is a case of "These are the rules, and those just happen to be rare examples of stories that break them." I think the four elements approach here is a formula, because it says your story must have these specific elements and states or implies that they are the most important things in your story. Since there is virtually nothing useful that can be said about how *every* good story is constructed, anything that makes statements about the structure of a story is a formula, and is limited in application. A formula might apply to the vast majority of all stories that have an sizable audience, or it might even cover all of the stories that an individual person likes, but it's never going to cover all successful stories, i.e. all stories that work for at least one significant group of readers (my definition of successful).

Some examples of other formulas that are sometimes useful:

Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl

(From Marion Zimmer Bradley) A likeable character reaches a worthwhile goal through her/his own efforts against almost insurmountable odds.

(One of OSC's formulae for Analog-style fiction - not that it's my sense that he's a great proponent of it) "Independent thinker comes up with great idea; bureaucrats screw everything up; independent thinker straightens it all out and puts bureaucrats in their place."

Man vs. man; man vs. nature; man vs. himself

OK, all that said, I'm finding the particular four-track formula described to be very useful to at least a couple of my current stories, and I'm glad you brought it up.

Luc


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JP Carney
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To formula or not to formula, that ... really isn't a question. I don't think "formula" is bad, really, because all it implies is a way of doing something, in our case a way of looking at crafting fiction. Formula doesn't imply "the right way" or "the only way", it simply is "a way" to put the pieces together.

I think the way a formula "gets bad" is when someone says you must start with A, go to B, then C, until you have D. Don't work on B or C before A, and certainly don't work on A then C. It's bad because it implies one correct way of doing it.

But if I simply say, you need A, B, and C to hopefully conclude with D, then all I've done is simply given you the ingredients to help organize your thoughts, perhaps with some suggestion on how to put them together.

Stephen King's method to much of his madness is to create living characters and then put them in situations. Keeps the door pretty open for him as he moves towards what he thinks is the ultimate conclusion (though it might change). In a broad sense it's a formula, a good one, like OSC's and others mentioned here.

Formulas in a broad sense are much of what our discussions are about here. How do YOU do it so it might help ME to it better. What's your "formula" for success? What peices can I take away from it and put into my own formula for writing?

JP


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Bardos
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I have to agree with JP. Each one of us has hir/her own way of writing.

Personaly, I begin with some characters, and think up of situations where I can test them (as King does; though, I didn't know that 'till now ). As the story progresses, it is the story who leads me.

I don't think I could ever say, This character is important, and those are the cast. As the story develops, it will tell me who are important and who aren't. Perhaps all of them are important; perhaps only one or two are.

Also, I rarely know how the story will conclude, untill I'm near the story's end. So a formula A => B => C => D => E usually does not work for me, for I would (almost) never know the E(nd). The middle steps are also fluid, most of the time.

But, if someone works better with a formula, then it's good for him/her to use it. But what I think is bad is stick to one formula for ever. E.g., Eddings' books all seem to have the same plot-line...


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JK
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The MICE quotient really isn't a formula, merely a classification method. Of course, it is easier to classify your story before you write it in the long run, since that way you can keep out any extraneous material. Gulliver's Travels, for instance, was a Mileu story, and the author never really told the readers anything about Gulliver because that is not what interests the reader.
And as for beefing up stories, my interpretation was sticking in fluff. Sorry if I was wrong about that. I stand by what I said about fluff, though.
Formulas don't really work for me, either, since I don't really plan my stories that well. While I do have a direction for the story, and I have an end-point (i.e. a situation - is the character going to succeed or fail, does Good triumph over Evil, etc.), but the way of getting there changes in mid-write. So, for me at least, formulas don't help in the writing process. Perhaps if I had a more ordered mind, they might. Formulas aren't right or wrong, though. It's a personal thing.
Writing software, on the other hand, is wrong. Word processors are fine, but a piece of software that does all the creating for you is cheating. It also takes all the fun out of writing.
JK

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PaganQuaker
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On the subject of writing software: I actually use one piece of software that I wrote, to keep track of ideas. It lets me give the brief description, optionally a lot of detail, and to say what elements the idea contains (situations, characters, etc.) It will even give me random juxtapositions of ideas, although I've never found that feature particularly handy.

I'm also working on a different piece of writing software, again for myself, this time to remind me of all the good advice I've sucked in: The Fiction Troubleshooter. The idea behind this is that with certain kinds of writing problems ("I'm blocked" "I don't know how to end the story" etc.) there are specific techniques that might get me back on the path (exercises to try, ways to analyze your story, possible problems you might be having, other approaches you might take). This is kind of a crutch to hold me over until I've internalized all of this stuff so well that I do these things automatically.

I also have a spreadsheet where I log submissions, writing time, and the status of various stories. I might put that in with that first program some time.

So the implicit assertion here that I'm making is that some kinds of software to assist writers are helpful, but I'm entirely in agreement that using computer software to come up with ideas or plot a story is Not Really So Great From My Point of View.

Luc


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Augustine
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PaganQuaker -- I understand why you'd have a submission log (I have one myself). I also understand why you'd want to a story status log. But I'm curious, why would you keep track of writing time?

A note about writing software. I have used Dramatica. It's purpose is to help you systematically work out your ideas--not to write your story for you. The problem with it is that it's too systematic. It's like a story in a box. I probably never use it again. I just thank God it was free download!

[This message has been edited by Augustine (edited October 26, 2001).]


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PaganQuaker
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Hi Augustine,

Ah, it probably sounds like some kind of time clock thing or something. I just note the date and what I got done. It helps me keep perspective on how much work I'm really doing, on what went into a project, etc.

Luc


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Augustine
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Hi PaganQuaker,

Thanks! I bet it helps a lot. I mean, you have some kind of tangible evidence to tell you if you're working or not. I bet it also helps you evaluate if you're meeting your writing goals or not. I think I'm going to start one myself. Thanks again!


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JK
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I have nothing against writers using software to help them write. I use Word all the time, and I can't really write unless I'm writing onto a computer; writing in a notepad or on loose paper seems to inhibit the flow a little. And that spreadsheet thing sounds like a good idea, PaganQuaker, but perhaps a little too organised for me *grin*
But stuff like Dramatica just really gets my proverbial goat, is all.
Anyway, enough ranting from me.
JK

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TreebeardFangorn
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I understand that BF Skinner, the prolific psychologist, had a timer on his writing table light. He would only have the light on when he actually had pen on paper, he required himself to clock 8 hours/ day.

Worked for him.


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Graceful
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Hi, all- a newbie here, though not new to writing, just Hatrack. I've read through the various reply's and agree that some of the computer programs out there aren't all their cracked up to be- usually end up being crutches at best, and the box idea at worst.

On the other hand, the MICE idea and any other type of "formula" is just a type of outline....we all need SOME sort of outline to proceed and turn it into The Story.

One point I didn't see discussed here was World Building. In addition to the outline, in order to make the story real, the characters real, a world must be built within which the story and characters exist. This technique should be one of the first to be applied, I think, in "fleshing" out a story or novel. This is where I've found the believability factor zooms...no matter how good the writing is, or characters are, or anything else, any time I've read a story that doesn't have a world that has been built up for the story, I end up putting the book down. Tolkien was the best at this, though many author's nowadays do this as well. Patricia Wrede has a website with wonderful pointers on how to do this technique.

Anyone have any comments to this? I'd love to hear them....

Graceful


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Bardos
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"Patricia Wrede has a website with wonderful pointers on how to do this technique."

Url?


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writerPTL
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Have NONE of you ever just thought, "Hey, what if INSERTCHARACTER had to face SOMEVAGUEBUTINTRIGUINGPROBLEM" and then started writing? EVER?? Honestly, I think it would help you all out . . . Instead of coming up with a character's life before hand and inserting the parts YOU deem necessary, why not let the character tell you what he (or she) wants to tell you? Instead of constructing an entire world and everything in it and coming up with mathematical equations and complex maps, why not just wing it the first time, focusing on the character and her problems, filling in the technical stuff later.

I think this would work for almost everyone's story, except for some of the hard sci-fi, which I think is more of a scientiffic concept tacked onto a story than anything.

I challenge you guys to find a situation, very simple but something that excites you, and plunge into the writing with no information on the character or setting. Post what happens.


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Bardos
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Actually, that is what I do. I begin with a situation, and then build everything up - world, characters' background, etc. Apart from some very fundamental thing that I know from the begining, of course - e.g., I have a map, and I know how my world works more or less. But I fill in the ditail as the come up later. I wont construct a kingdom in the other side of the world I'll never use...
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JK
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While I have tried that, PTL, I've found that the story is strangely lacking if you just jump right in. I did that with my first novel, and had to practically rewrite it because the technical stuff just couldn't be inserted in. It coloured everything the characters did and said. I'm still doing it now, and I started two years ago. I've had to recently change a character's name because it didn't fit in with the language rules.
I am now an ardent believer in planning.
This approach doesn't work for everyone, of course. I'm not saying everyone should plan, not at all. It just works for me.
JK

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Diamond
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Please help- I'm new to the bulletin board, but I've read all of OSC's writing classes and probably writing advice from most major online sources and books. My question is: does anyone else find it easier or more difficult to write out scenes and chapters once you've outlined everything and you know where the story is going?

I'm finding it more difficult. Since I know some of the things that happen it's harder to write the dialogue and details to get there. Suggestions? Ideas? Maybe I just need to re-focus on my audience and on bringing them along with the story. So far, however, this hasn't worked because my friends all know the book.

Help ideas please.


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writerPTL
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do people enjoy the technical stuff, JK?
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Bardos
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quote:
I'm finding it more difficult. Since I know some of the things that happen it's harder to write the dialogue and details to get there. Suggestions? Ideas? Maybe I just need to re-focus on my audience and on bringing them along with the story. So far, however, this hasn't worked because my friends all know the book.

Don't overplan; just plant. E.g., when I write about a day in my curent novel, I write in notes what happens in the morning, in the mid-day, in the afternoon, and evening. But, when I start writing, eg, about something I've planed in the morning, a new idea might come up about the evening, based on something new, not-planed that I wrote about the morning. Then I go for it.

In sort: plan, but let your imagination also lead you. Else, where is the fun in writing, if not to surprise yourself sometimes?!


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JK
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writerPTL said:
quote:
do people enjoy the technical stuff, JK?

I don't know. But I do, and I write for me first, audience second. And that's the way it's always going to be.
JK

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writerPTL
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Fair enough :-p
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JK
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*shrugs* Sorry, but it can't really be the other way around. If you write for the audience only, then your stories will be crap.
Besides, I'm a selfish little bugger *grin*
JK

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Goober
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One tip that works in coming up with my ideas is to decide the ending to a story before I figure out where it starts. That way I wont ramble on too long after the fact. I used to have some action happen, and it was over, and then I went and did something else and the story eventually just died in writing because I couldnt find a stopping point.

So, know where the story is going and what the point is before you start trying to reach it. This way you could start 5 minutes before the end, or go back to the begining of the problem and have a much larger story. Star Wars would have worked in a different way if it was only about the Death Star attack and not about Lukes voyage to get there, they could have just but that in as a background story like they did with the spies who stole the plans. We never saw that. Ok, now I am going off on SW again.

In short, plan, but not alot


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JK
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Long time, no see, Goober.
JK

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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Diamond, one problem with outlining is that it is close enough to the actual story in your head that your subconscious may feel the story has been told, and it doesn't want to do any more creating work for you as you try to write the full story down.

This is one reason some writers will not talk about their work while they are still writing it. If they tell the story, it's harder to get their subconscious to work on it any more.

(I hope this makes sense.)

Since all of your friends know the story already, they are probably acting like your subconscious and can't help you any more either.

I would suggest that you try talking the details of your story, the scenes, the dialogue, the descriptions, into a tape recorder instead of trying to put them right onto paper.

Being able to express the story out of your mouth instead of through your fingers may help you get it fleshed out.

Once it's on the tape, you can just transcribe it onto paper (and maybe even edit and flesh it out more as you go).

This kind of approach is like an end run around your subconscious. Writing involves two modes--creating mode and editing/rewriting mode--and they each require different ways of thinking.

If you try to do them both at the same time, you can grind to a halt. This is why I strongly urge people to get the story down on paper (creating mode) first. You may have more or less done this already with your planning and outlining.

Once the story is on paper, then is the time to edit and rewrite. Since you don't have enough story on the paper, you are trying to continue the creating part, and maybe your subconscious is ready for the editing part.

So talking about the story on tape may let your subconscious go back to creating mode.

It's worth a try, anyway.

Good luck.


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Cosmi
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Kathleen~

that's really good advice! i think i'm running into that problem with one of my novels-in-progress. i'm going to try tape recording. thanx!

TTFN & lol

Cosmi


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Diamond
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Thank you so much, Kathleen! I will try that. I think you're right.

Thank you!!
-Di


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JK
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I'm sorry, but I got a bit confused there.
Kathleen, you said that telling people about your story might deaden the creative impulses to carry on with that story. I understand that (and that's why I keep my plots close to my metaphorical chest), but how is telling it to a tape-recorder any different? The tape-recorder will interfere as much as your friends (i.e. hardly at all), and you're still actively speaking about your story, making it public.
Perhaps I've misunderstood. But I find bits of paper are more private ways of creating and questioning plots and details.
JK

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Bardos
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Me too, JK.
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Bardos
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Me too, JK.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Sorry for the confusion, JK and Bardos.

What I meant was, because writing something down and talking about it out loud are basically different ways of processing and expressing things, and because talking about a story is usually easier than writing it down, it might help Diamond to take the talking approach instead of struggling with the writing approach.

Both ways express the story, and either could count as far as the subconscious is concerned, but since the story has already been expressed out loud, the subconscious may be more open to continuing to express it that way as opposed to trying to make it convert to another mode of expression.

Does that make more sense?


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JK
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You're making a little more sense there, yeah.
But does anyone else think that this thread has taken on an almost mystical tone? I've never thought of the writing process as mystical. I wonder how you get enlightened?
JK

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Bardos
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But, my friend, writing is magic!
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