Approximately how many words are in a standard paperback page? Not manuscript format, but your regular paperback.

Also, what-- in your opinion-- is a good chapter length (word or page count)? My chapters end where the scene ends, but that's usually around the 6,500 mark. I'm trying to get a feel for whether that's too hefty a chapter for the reader who, like me, is waiting to go to bed as soon as they finish the current chapter!

Think in terms of how much you feel comfortable reading in one sitting---you don't want the reader to feel as though the chapters go on and on and on---and most people I know want to stop at a chapter ending.

OK, so I will state the formula again---for a first book the word count should be (recommended) between 70,000-- 90,000 words. Closer to the 70,000 mark is better. Think in terms of about 2,500 words per chapter and 3 to 4 scenes per chapter. Does that move fast? You bet it does. The article is by William Hutchenson and can be found in the February 2001 issue of Writers Digest Magazine---<I>10 steps to planning your second draft.</I>

I kept this in mind when I wrote my last book---it took four months to write and about six months of re-writes. The writing came out tight, the story moves quickly, and I was surprised at how it turned out. And in the end I came out at 90,000 words after about 10 drafts.

I start sending out query packages on Monday thanks to my wonderful group 6.

If you leave the character hanging from the cliff about to fall----the reader truns the page to the new chapter. Thus the can't put down novel.

Any insight on how many (average) words per paperback page? Per hardcover page? In the back of my mind, I want to say 300 words on the paperback, but....

Thanks again,

OSCs chapter lengths are all over the place, even within one novel. Some are over fifty pages (like in Xenocide, I think), some are literally a page and a half (Seventh Son).

I personally an finding my chapters coming out ~6000 words, but they usually have multiple white spaces (and often end in mild cliffhangers, as srhowen mentioned above). The cliffhangers drive my wife crazy.

Erk

A quickie paperback will have short chapters, an action packed book will have short chapters and a book about plants will have chapters long enough to discuss the specific family or seasons.

An Epic will have longer chapters.

I am a firm believer in writing with the flow and keeping the flow going, stopping it at a logical point and not being formulaic about the whole thing. If it feels right then it comes from the heart and most people read from the heart. Strange analogy but I think it's true. If I want to learn something then I will pick up a book of hard facts, but if I want to escape then i pick up a novel.

I can spot a formula book a mile off! Go with your heart. Write the whole thing and then go back and work at it with a fine tooth comb. If your chapters are 11,000 words approx (most of mine are) then just let it be. If they are less and it feels right then leave it at that. Stir the readers heart with fiction, spur his mind with facts. Use the same organ to write with.

I speak of the advice given in a specific article about first books---break out novels. Yes, by all means write from the heart. But I ask this----

What if I like pink paper and half inch margins and onion skin paper---hmm agents will reject me because I don’t know the rules or because I think I am above them or just plane would be hard to work with.

Just as with any job, when you try to sell your book, you are selling yourself as well. If an editor has two books in hand and one follows the standard for first books, and first bestsellers—and the other doesn’t---but both are good, chances are that the book that follows industry standards—(according to this article) will be chosen. I speak here of first books, break out books, the break in ones. Not of the latest Jorden--- Go back and look at their first books-----I think you will find shorter works with fast paced chapters.

I have five other complete books other than the one I used this formula on----the one before this one is as good and well written as the current one-----but I have had three requests for this current one----short chapters less than 3,000 words, and the book in at about 90,000 words. The one before---got rejections with personal notes---this is too long for a first book or longer than what we want---190,000 words with 6,000 to 10,000 word chapters. So, I conclude that the “formula” works. But that doea not make it a formula book.

Most of us are just starting out in the industry. Otherwise many of us would be busy, earning that living. I'd just like to point out that whole "starter" issue.

Let's take a look at J.K. Rowling, for instance. She dreamt up her story on a train, and when it came time to publish, she was an instant success, no prior publishings, true rags to riches - type story.

I read Philosopher's Stone, and while I know many people believe it to be a children's novel, it's quite a brilliant first novel.

It's a little over 75,000 words, and though the chapter lengths are around 4,000 words, I devoured it in 4 days. (Not a particularly fast reader, but that was kinda a record)... I digress...

The point that I'm trying to make is that as a first, it sold like wildfire. If any of you have been following the series... (I can't seem to stop)... then you will notice a marked difference in the lengths, as you progress through, steadily increasing till we have the latest instalment Goblet of Fire which is nigh on 200,000 words. Clearly by then Rowling had established herself as a sellable writer and is now beginning to dictate her own terms.

Piers Anthony is another writer of such calibre... I don't think that I've ever seen such a prolific writer, who, even though it took him many years, discovered the FORMULA that allowed him to be published in the first place.

It's all very well to flout the "rules" that are accepted in the industry, but it's not going to put that bread on the table.

I myself would prefer a 3 course dinner.

May the light of creation shine forever in the hearts of those willing to share it.

Can anyone think of any first books that were epic? I mean 6000 to 10000 words per chapter?

The formal definition of a formula story is----A term that refers to a genre of fiction that uses a familiar theme treated in a predictable way. Such as the romance formula—boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.

Some publishers supply a “bible” of sorts that tell the writer what they can and can’t do with plot and characters and then tell what formula they want the writer to use.

I refer to a certain way of writing a book that has nothing to do with plot or characters---a formula in where you base your book on what sells the best in terms of word count, scenes per chapter, words per chapter, and the cliff hanger middle of scene chapter ends.

Does that clear the water a bit?

Does anyone know of any writers in fantasy whose first book was very large? Which publisher did they use?

And one thing about the 'first novel'. I would have to think that unless the writing is top notch, nearly superior, a publisher isn't going to take a very large, first part of a trilogy, novel unless it truly stands on its own. I can't imagine them committing to all three at once, that's for sure. I've had this conversation with SiliGurl before, off board, and my suggestion is to possibly try and get a) either pieces of the novel that may stand alone as a short (perhaps with some tweaking of course) published in a mag, or b) write some shorts that somehow fit into the novel (set in a common locale, using some of the same characters, whatever) published. I would imagine a publisher would be much more willing to take a change on an epic first novel if you have some credits behind it to back it up. (Yes, any credits help, of course, but I think credits specific to the novel may be more beneficial??)

JP

The problem that publishers see with an epic length series is that what if you can’t follow through with the other novels—now you may be certain that you can, you may have even started on that second and third book----but they have no real idea if the first book will sell. I can think of several writers that got the big contract for more books and then couldn’t do it. Jean M. Aural<sp> comes to mind with the Clan of the Cave Bear series—the first book was very good—the rest went down hill from there.

We can say but my writing is so good, and good writing will sell. But to the publishers the marketing dept. with their bottom line of $$$$ is going to rate very high.

I have three novels all of them over 150,000 words---all of them set in the same world. The first is 350,000 words long. The second 200,000. The third 300,000. I got some nibbles on the first---the advice I got—cut this in three or four parts and resend as a stand alone book. I have not been able to do it because I can’t figure out where to stop so it makes sense to stop.

Even using Kings theory second draft=first draft minus 10% will not make those short enough. But I believe King also said that if you are a short writer that second draft can = plus 10%.

That’s why I went with the “formula” to write this last one and the first draft ended up at 73,000 words. The last and final draft ended at 90,000. I am now working at figuring out where to divide the others.

Formula publishers---contact TSR (Wizards of the Coast) (www.wizards.com) for fantasy. They have you write a sample then if you pass that they send you a “bible” of their worlds and characters and assign you a story. I turned it down. They want less than 75,000 words and only pay a one time write fee to you and you get no royalties. Some romance companies work this way as well. That was how they worked a few years ago—I have not checked recently but they tell you in the Writers Market to request guidelines before sending material. They may have the guide lines on their web site.

In a mss formated document, Time Roman, 12pt, you get 25-26 lines of 55-60 characters, giving you approximately 250 words per mss page.

Thus, 10 mss pages would be approximately 2,500 words, or a shor story (approximately 7,500 words in length) would be about 30 mss pages.

Someone noted, after doing a google search, that several resources said that the average paperback book page length was 350 words.

So, using that, your mss page of 250 is about 70% of a paperback book page. Thus, if your mss novel is 125,000 words long (or 500 mss pages), your novel is around 350-360 paperback book pages long (or hell, forget the 70% and just divide your word count by 350 for the paperback book page rather than the 250 for the mss page).

Additionally, someone cited the Feb. 2001 WD as saying that the suggested length for a marketable first novel is approximately 70,000 words (or 280 mss pages, or 200 paperback pages).

Hope this helps.

Now, if you're asking if I'm going to completely conform to the rules during the writing process, not likely, at least not right away. The process isn't about formulas and rules or even guidelines, it's about creating. Once it's down, I may start reading the second and third drafts with the 'rules' in mind, as a part of the editing process, but again, with the integrity of the story in mind.

Hmm---I may start a debate here as well. That’s ok I’m good at those.

As I stated, I have three very long complete novels----I wrote them with passion, with flow, and without flow, I wrote them flaunting the rules, and formulas—I flaunted the advice of published authors---my writing is good, my writing is great. Hey, I’ve sold non-fic, I do ghost writing, I do not have to conform---it is about art, it is about creating, it is about writing because I am a writer, and I have to write or my skull would explode.

I have a file box full of rejections on those novels---I kid you not. The first, I think I have close to 30 on. I got one request for the full mss from an on-line e book publisher that said---too long in bold letters. I sent the full mss to a couple of publishers that still accepted complete mss---I got two form rejections and one advising me to divide it in four---at the least three books. I got one very nasty personal letter saying—the book goes on and on---on and on---and on and on---while interesting—this is just too long. But, oh how that book touched my soul. You have no idea what it felt like to finish that thing. Not my first book------that one I finished many years ago and it sits in the back of the closet where it belongs---but this one---wow. I wrote with art, flow, and with the fire of creation.

The second book, I think I stopped at 20 rejections and set it aside. I’d stopped sending to publishers and sent only to agents. I got 20 form rejections. But I ignored them. This is art, I am an artist---I create! The h--- with all of your rules and suggestions, why should I listen to you. I am a creator!

At this point, I started seriously reading all those writing books that lined my shelves. I subscribed to WD and read it cover to cover. A light went on somewhere. Hey, these people are artists just like me. So, why does it take me 200,000 plus words to tell a story and they can do it in less than 100,000? I began doing the exercises they suggested. I marked up books with highlighters—I underlined descriptions----everything they said, I tried. Then I got wrote my third book---

I patted myself on the back---told in 150,000 words. I was getting somewhere. But when I read it I still saw many flaws. So, it was back to the books and the examples, and the crit groups.

Guess what? I was still creating. I am still an artist. Then came two things. One—a book called a “The Complete Guide to Editing Your Fiction”, and the February 2001 issue of Writers Digest Magazine.

I sat down and thought---what would happen if I wrote a story with the guide lines in mind instead of going back and trying to make an already written book conform to them later?

By the end of May, I had the first draft of a 73,000 word novel. I sent out 10 queries on it. I had two requests out of those for the complete mss. I got other personal notes.

I was still an artist, I was still a creator---but now I had shown that I can follow the standards.

So, what am I saying? Being a non-conformist is fine, if you write for yourself, or perhaps for a small audience of friends and relatives,---but if you want to sell your first book---I think you need to keep the standards in the back of your mind as you write. Read the books on how to edit first—then go at it. If you are a creator, a true artist, then I think you can create within the publishing standards.

We shall see, I have just sent out another 9 queries---on a much edited and re-written novel that follows the standards.

IMHO
Shawn

I agree with Shawn about having to write as they say, if you want to get published. That's why we get bad fantasy, there days...

In fact, this last book is my best effort yet. It is a fresh idea, and the writing is tight and precise, it had to be to fit those guides.

No, I do not recommend a bunch of unrelated strung together scenes just to make the count---but by keeping the count in mind it is surprising how mush less editing things needed later.

He still sells loads of books! I wonder how long his first one was.

I have a friend who is a well-published, well-known writer (as in able to make a living with his writing and do well enough to have money to spare for other projects).

At one time, he was looking into publishing and had arranged with another friend to put out a fantasy anthology. The other friend would be the editor of this anthology.

I had written a story that hadn't sold yet, and so I queried these friends about sending it to them for the anthology.

The editor asked if the protagonist were female, because there weren't enough female protagonists among the stories submitted so far.

My protagonist wasn't female, but I was willing to rewrite the story so that the protagonist was female. (I could do this because the story had grown out of an idea instead of a particular character.)

The editor liked the story as rewritten and only had a few suggestions to make on the story.

One suggestion, however, was that I have the character do something that was not only out of character, but that I considered incredibly stupid in that situation.

When I said I couldn't make that change, the editor implied that they didn't want the story, then. (This is known, by the way, as a "deal-breaker.")

I felt that the story was a good story without the change and so withdrew it. I sent it around to some other anthologies, including the Magic: The Gathering (TM) anthology, TAPESTRIES.

The editor of TAPESTRIES contacted me and said that they'd filled that anthology but were doing another, DISTANT PLANES. While my story didn't particularly fit the Magic: The Gathering (TM) game, she could see how it could be adapted to fit, and would I be willing to make the changes?

I said I'd be willing to see what I could do, so the editor sent me photocopies of the card set she felt my story fit, and asked me to see if I could slip in some references to some of those cards.

This I did, and resubmitted the story. She had a couple of other suggestions (of cards to refer to, and of some clarifications she felt I needed to add) and I did what I could with those.

Then she bought the story. If you want to read it, it's in MAGIC: THE GATHERING DISTANT PLANES--"A Monstrous Duty" by Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury (promotional plug <grin> ).

There are things editors may ask you to do that you just can't do and have the story work.

But there are other things editors may ask you to do that will work fine with your story.

Only you, as author, can determine which things are which.

I do object though when my opponent(s), try to read more into what I actually say, to further their own arguments.
I'm not saying that you did this intentionally, JK, or with any malice what-so-ever, but let me set you straight on one point.
I didn't say that I would compromise, shorten, or lengthen a story, because of Mr. Publisher.

The main thrust of my point has been iterated, and reiterated by SRHowen, (and others), and it's all about my desire to begin my career as a writer.

Of course I'm an artist first and foremost.
None of us, I believe, begin writing, because we think that there is a s*** load of money out there to get from the unsuspecting public. No! We write because we are compelled to express ourselves artistically.
For some it's Fine Art.
For others, like myself, it's Acting. (though it's very easy to think of the money in acting, because stars are paid soooooo much - again, NOT why I did a performing arts course)
For those of us who have the imagination that screams for a release, we put pen to paper, literally or cybernetically speaking. Why? Not because there's money to be made, but because We HAVE To, for whatever reason, sanity, etc...

Why do I then say that I would be willing to confine my creative talent to a word limit?

Because: a. it isn't really confining! and b. to be able to make a career in this field, we must be able to MARKET OURSELVES.
We have to establish our audience, before we can dictate terms ourselves, and that means getting published.

If you're happy plodding along for 6 years, sending mss after mss (what does that exatly stand for by the way? LOL) to the same publishers again and again, until one of them finally gives up and says.... Okay, so you write really well, already. If we publish your book, will you leave us alone then??? (tongue firmly embedded in cheek) by all means, plod away.

If, on the other hand, you can't wait that long, like me, and you do have a talent that you want to share with the world, and you ARE willing to compromise, (not your creativity or integrity or the Quality! of your writing), or should I say, make concessions, to get that first novel out of the way, then you [u]should[/u] keep to the industry standard GUIDLINES for a first book.

By no means, Bardos, do I advocate writing BAD fiction. You write YOUR fiction. If some think it's BAD then that's just their opinion. For those who truly write bad fiction, and we feel sorry for them, sometimes the only way for them to get published in the first place is to write it formulaically. (yes that is a word, by the way... I looked it up. *grin* ^_^)

The point that many don't realise, is that sometimes you have to make those consessions to get your foot in the door.

Even Tolkien first published the shorter "The Hobbit" before LOTR was accepted.

Try telling Robert Jordan, or David Eddings, or any of the "established" writers what to write. They'll tell you to get f.....far away. Many of them started with shorter fiction.

Once you make the inroads, then you can tell the driver which way to turn.
WITHOUT COMPROMISING your writing.

JK, you don't have to "box" your writing at all. Just write a story that fits the box. It will sell, and you wrote it to perfecly MATCH the package.

my ¥2
Dave

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We write because we are compelled to express ourselves artistically.

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Even Tolkien first published the shorter "The Hobbit" before LOTR was accepted.

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