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It's no secret that fantasy follows a loose formula. Young man is the unwitting answer to anceint prophecy which sets him out on a quest of some sort. – JOHN

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This seems too simple. Fantasy is far more that this.

That was the gut response. Then I tried to think of a counter example that I had read.

The young man part and the ancient prophecy – that isn’t a set standard. Popular but not set in stone. Plenty of counter examples of that.

But the quest part… that I couldn’t see how to get around that. Now not every book as a Tolkien-style quest where the many representatives set out on an arduous journey – many do but not all by a long shot. Yet there always seems to be some driving goal that the character pushing along to complete at some point of the story that forces them to journey physically or mentally or emotionally to complete. That might be too loose a definition of a quest, but it seems to sum up the flavor of one well enough.

I would have said the fantasy novel I’m working isn’t a quest. But it one of the driving pieces is a man searching for his brother’s killer. It’s eating at him, it’s shaping his actions – it is a personal quest that’s mystery is integral to the whole framework of the novel.

But if you think about it this way then, many books in all fields have quests to some degree, and it isn’t a fantasy thing at all.

Which would bring me back around to my first opinion.

Such a formula is too simple. Fantasy is more that that.

What’s some of the other opinions out there?

Fantasy, however, is more than just the formula used to create the stories. It's a setting, an atmosphere, a feeling. A strange combination of the past with powers or technologies we've never discovered, or never could, because they only exist in a 'fantasy' world.

Compare this to science fiction which takes current scientific thought and stretches it just a bit (or sometimes a helluva lot) in order to create the world.

And as you sy GZ, there's a quest of some sort in EVERY book, else it wouldn't be worth reading. In a detective story, the quest is to solve the mystery. In a caper story, the quest is to steal the little black box. In a western, the quest is to kill the evil gunslinger.

The real art is mixing all these different genres together. Not literature, but I LOVED the shot in the Matrix where Neo and the Agent face off in the subway tunnel. It's JUST like a western gunfight . . . and then a little piece of plastic or something blows between them . . . just like the western tumbleweed. It's great . . . all sorts of genres mixed in there, INCLUDING the unwitting boy fulfilling the prophecy thing.

Speaking of gunfights . . . did you know the shootout at the O.K. corral only lasted 30 seconds?

Bit of random trivia for you today.

Sorry . . . rambling.

-Nate

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Fantasy is definitely more than that, but the FAMOUS and POPULAR series seem to stick to that formula. Though there's nothing wrong with formulas. -- Falken224

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This is true. It’s not a bad formula, really quite classic through the ages, and I’ve liked plenty of tales that use it.

I’ve also gotten tired of it in its most literal form. The whole “Lets tromp around all over creation, getting tired, wet, and hungry in the process, for some gazillion odd pages, seeing every sight imaginable and stumbling into secrets of the universe beyond our understanding” set up, which is what the quoted formula brings to my mind first, has lost some of its sparkle depite various spins (good and bad) on it. Books with blurbs like that on the back keep getting put back on the shelf when I’m browsing lately.

And the battle of Good vs. Evil. That’s in the formula mixture too. That one might well be universal to all fantasy as well, in one form or another.

The Matrix, while not a book, is a neat example to consider. You’ve got the Good vs. Evil thing. You’ve got a prophecy. There is the quest. You’ve even got a youngish man. All the standards. And somehow that movie was one of the freshest things I’ve ever watched on the big screen (This opinion may not be completely separated from the amazing special effects).

Thank goodness for fresh twists to old formulas.

Oh… and the George Lucas Star Wars thing. I don’t know of a specific essay, but I know I’ve read how he borrowed heavily from mythology and the Arthur Legends in developing it (the original three anyway). I’ll have to look through the book I picked up at Exhibit to see if it mentions a specific essay. That would be neat to read.

The other formula I like and I'm not currently using is, the quest starts out for one thing then they realize the fate of the world hangs in the balance. Like David Eddings. The only reason Sparhawk searched out the Saphire Rose was to heal Elhana but then realized he needed it to save the world.

In order to raise the stakes that high, you have to create a nearly insurmountable evil. A boy's not going to know anything about that. Why would he even try? Well, obviously because he's inadvertently fulfilling a prophecy. And he'll need older, wiser (but not always present) people to teach him, a familiar face or two from home, (which will nearly always be nearly-killed at some point) an unwilling, unwitting love interest who he wins over with his innocence, else the story won't be interesting.

Yeah, it's a formula, I know. I just don't see a whole lot of room for variation. That's one of the reasons I can't read the first three WoT books any more. They stick pretty strictly to this formula. What's interesting is from book 4 on, where we get to see the BAD guys, and we get to see the main hero developing into a character who I think will eventually become a power-hungry tyrant who's only barely more tolerable than the evil he's fighting. THAT is a more interesting story, IMHO.

But it's still an event story, and in the end I don't identify with any of the characters, even as I sympathise and root for them. (well, MOST of them.)

I want to see more fantasy CHARACTER stories. There's lots of room for that.

I actually started writing one, but am having a LOT of trouble with creating the world to fit the character story I've devised. It'll come, I'm sure. This idea's been kicking around for too long for me to forget it, but it's frustrating nonetheless.

Personally, I think an Anakin Skywalker-esque story would be interesting. Boy learns of terrible evil, decides to fight it, is hurt terribly in the process, indulges his anger and hatred and joins forces with the very evil he's fighting. (could be either intentinally or inadvertently) Whether he dies a justified death or repents doesn't really matter, I think, but you could make a REALLY interesting story about that.

There's a ton of possibilities that still allow for the big good vs. evil conflicts, lots of magic and super-natural phenomenon, etc. but still avoid the boy-quest formula, which is IMHO getting a bit worn out.

And by all means mix genres up. That story I'm working on I'm trying to make a westernish fantasy. Was kind o' inspired by Stephen King's Dark Tower series. western/fantasy . . . very cool.

Seriously though, that's why the Matrix was so fresh. It really mixed up elements from every genre. Storyline was pure fantasy. Setting was sci-fi/techno-thriller. Action was almost exclusively kung-fu movie style or western style. And ALL of it was stepped up about three notches. If you step back and look at it, there's really nothing terribly impressive about it, except it was executed perfectly and it really was a fresh mixture of ideas.

Personally, I rest easy knowing that the same studio that took a chance with that movie is behind 'Ender's Game'. That's gonna be a cool movie.

Anyway . . . rambling again.

-Nate

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Actually, I remember a piece on George Lucas...apparently his notion of quest that he used for the "Star Wars" films originated, or was influenced by, a [60's?]writer who set out the important quest elements in some form of essayist piece.
Anyone know who I'm talking about [no, not George, the other person], just in case there's something more and of possible interest that can be located?

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and I've been waiting to see if anyone else would answer him.

Since no one has....

It's a book, Brian. HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES by Joseph Campbell, and it talks about how the quest story (also known as the "archtypal journey" is a story cultures all over the world tell themselves).

Campbell posits that the reason the quest story can be seen in so many kinds of stories is that it is something pretty basic to human nature.

You can call it a formula, but it's got a lot of scope and a lot of possibility.

1) Go to tournament
2) Avenge family member's or master's death
3) Defend chinese restaraunt from mafia

but are still spectacular money makers.

I found this at the local library, and read through the first couple of sections over the holiday yesterday. Interesting especially with all the examples.

I had not expected (not that I had particularly expected anything) the emphasis on Freud and Jung in Campbell’s analysis.

I’ve seen Freud’s effect on literature looked at before in a college class titled “Science and Literature” that looked at the influences of Darwin and Freud in things written after or contemporary with their work. I can’t help wondering if applying psychoanalysis makes for a self-fulfilling line of logic since the symbolic elements of mythology stories seem rather at the heart of the theory’s principles. Of course, such a relationship makes them also very suited to probing the same topics, so that might well be why Campbell has used the two together…. Hmm…

Anyway…

I also recently found another book on a related note – The Writer’s Guide to Fantasy Literature: From Dragon’s Lair to Hero’s Quest: How to Write Fantasy Stories of Lasting Value by Philip Martin (c)2002

After a deconstruction of the success of Harry Potter, the book goes on to discuss such things as types of fantasy (High, adventure, fairy tale, magic realism, and dark are the categories it uses) and then hits on the topics of character, places, patterns, plot, and practical writing concerns of publishing, etc.

It’s more a collection of quoted examples from fantasy novels, and most of the topics are covered through interviews and essays with published writers from the fantasy field. Not a deep book on writing technique (Either of OSC’s books offers a much more detailed view of that sort of thing), but it’s interesting to see some of the name author’s opinions on some of the topics.