Have any of you read the book The Forest for the Trees by Betsy Lerner? In her first chapter she describes The Ambivalent Writer, the writer who has a brand new cool idea for a story every day but never gets any real writing done, the writer who wants desperately to express herself but doesn't know how to go about it. When I first read that chapter the hairs on the back of my arms pricked up, because it described me -perfectly-. For a brief solipsistic moment I wondered if Lerner had been stalking me for months, secretly studying my behaviors in order to write the first chapter of her book. But my egotism gave way to relief as I realized that I'm not alone. I'm not alone! I'm a type! That means there are others like me!

Ahem.

So I'm posting this on the off-chance I might find some of those others here on this forum. We can commiserate, perhaps. Or if you -were- an undisciplined, ambivalent writer and somehow managed to find success (and success to me means finishing a manuscript, not just publishing one), then I'd love to hear how you overcame your ambivalence.

If you don't know what the heck I'm talking about, you can look up Lerner's book on amazon.com. Much of the first chapter is excerpted there for your reading pleasure.

Back to lurk mode,

TTFN & lol

Cosmi

Undisciplined? Ambivalent?

Never.Yeah - right . . .

I seem to go in and out of concentrated effort. I get to a certain point of just getting the ideas out after mulling them over for a while, and then I get caught in the revision deal. Sigh.

This tactic works well for - well, work - since most things I put together for work are research intensive, stringing together research, presenting crisp analysis, and fighting the upward battle on being allowed to use active - rather than passive - voice.

For writing fiction, essays, poetry, short stories - this technique does not seem to work so well. Plus, I seem to get stuck in the land of "I haven't finished this story yet - how can I move on?" Gasp.

Almost schizophrenic, one might say.

Almost a year later, 75,000 words and a destroyed my marriage I finished the beast. It was crap. As a newbie writer, I paid Scott Meredith Agency $250 to also conclude that my book lacked literary means (they agreed, I think sheep shite was the term one of them used.). But the exercise taught me a number of valuable lessons.

When push came to shove I wrote. And, by golly I finished it. I accomplished a beginning, a middle and an end that made some sort of sense. Writing equals butt in chair. Yet I still struggle with this concept. I wrestle with an internal editor disposes my characters, ideas or plot as bland. Somehow I must learn to lock up this demon in the dark recesses of my mind until the first draft has been finished.

In the years since, I've learned that I must write my first draft blind. Never looking back, never looking forward, but continue in the moment and let the characters tell me the story. Much harder to do than say.

I have about three dozen stories I've started and abandoned because of my ambivalance to my own work. Yet my friends encourage me to continue to write because they see something I don't in my work. I confess I'm still wallowing in the sheep shite remarks.

Kick yourself in the ass and write. Do you want to wake up one day when you are seventy years old, sitting in your favorite rocking chair, and sipping tart lemonade only to sigh and think, what if?

Your what if time is now! My what if time is now! Don't worry about failure or success write your heart out if it pleases you and then let others determine if it is good or not.

*puts his pom-poms back in the chest*

writing=work

Luckly I have never fallen for the money flowing away from the writer idea. Though I once had an editor tell me that I should take up one handed kniting becasue I would be more useful. (The non-fic article was later published by a different magazine).

You just sit and you write.

You just sit and you write.

You can't think about the reception it will get. Just do it and once you have the first complete novel, put it in the closet and go one to the next. Belive me when you have done two or three novels and go back and read that first one you will laugh your butt off.

Join a crit group--deadlines often help. And the opinion of others will teach you much. Criting others work will also teach you much.

all you can do is do it and see where it goes.

I'm working on the change as well as on some of the other comments they and a couple Hatrack critiquers have made, but am terrified about sending the requested material. At least now I have this amazing but oh so fragile hope and I don't want to let it go. I want to savor this one bite before I find out I might have to spit it out. "Pathetic? Absolutely."

(The agent said not to apologize for taking extra time to make something better, but I don't want to overdo it, either. I did send a note to explain the delay -- leaving out the hope part, of course. )

I do remind myself that I went to the conference with the intent of getting an agent to ask for more of my story, and that that's exactly what happened. Now I just have to get him to ask for still more. No sweat, right? I'm . ( )

Do published writers continue with this sort of stupid ambivalence?

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited December 04, 2002).]

My biggest problem is I am my own worst enemy when it comes to my writings. It doesn't matter if its my poetry or stories. I have to learn that I do have a gift and start using it more.

Another problem I have is shift in tenses; but in time I think I can even fix that...

I think deadlines are helpful, too. What kinds of deadlines do you guys give yourselves?

If someone else wants to say "give it to me by MM/DD or forget about it" then that's fine, but you shouldn't let a story or character die because it "takes too long."

They can work simply because during all your years of school you trained your brain to work with a deadline.

As to the submission process---5 rejections is nothing. They mean nothing. Form letters can mean it was not for them, not for them at this time, they were overloaded with subs that week, or didn't get pickles with lunch and it pissed them off. They ARE NOT REJECTING YOU THE PERSON!!!!!

They are only seeing the paper in front of them--that is what they are rejecting. And even good writers get rejections. You and the agent, or editor, have to be a match. That match takes time to make.

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even if I write completely shoddy crap, I need to write that shoddy crap before I can move on to anything decent.

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Even with a natural aptitude (and I think there's a thread about that), raw talent must be trained, guided, nurtured. Without exercise, talent has no expression and consequently no hope of being developed and done well.

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Athlete...

I'm a firm believer everyone has a talent to do something, it is those who work hard to refine their abilities that make them good/great. I always use the story of Michael Jordan as an example.

In high school, baseball was his natural sport, but he wanted to excel at basketball. When he missed the cut as a sophomore in high school, he had the passion to work harder to play at a higher level.

After his first retirement from basketball, he tried to play professional baseball, but lacked the polish in the sport because he was winning NBA championships. While playing in the minor leagues, his natural talent flashed on occasion. Without the dedication and hard work there was no consistancy in his game.

I believe this is true for everything in life. I've seen people who have a great gift for writing let it fall by the wayside because they weren't happy doing it.

Passion. How hard are you willing to work to accomplish something, be it basketball, baseball or writing. Like the old saying goes, what you put into something is what you get out of it.

I spent almost a year researching for a book on women's roles in WWII. Then got cold feet about my use of family history. I was too self conscious about what my Father would think...

TTFN & lol

I've always wanted to do that.

Anyway, it's true. I always have ideas about the next great story, and I sometimes get pretty far into it, by my standards, anyway. But when it comes to going for the big one, I think I'm much like the cheetah is at running: fast, short bursts. I wrote around 10,000 words...-ish, in about five days, and that was a week ago. I've barely wrote anything since. fast, but short-lived bursts. My short stories (correction: short storY, as in one; singular, unless you count the stuff I did in Creative Writing Freshman and Sophomore year in High School, and I'm not sure I do) are, IMHO, pretty not-too-bad, and the poems I sometimes write make me laugh out loud when I reread them.

So: why can't I finish a novel? Why can't I stick with it. Why do all my ideas run out before I get a quarter of the way through the story?

Well, I might never know, but what I DO know is that you people are right. The only way to find out if I'm any good is to get butt in chair and write. Not easy to do in a house of thirteen, but I'll find a way.

Chris

It's a good question. I don't know if I have the answer, but I will giveit a shot. One: I don't write short. In High School and beyond I had a dang hard time writing a short story. I finally learned to fake it by writing a chapter out of a longer work that had a beginning, middle, and end. That worked and it taught me something, how to compose an effective chapter.

When you sit down to do a longer work you have to stop thinking about word count, don’t think about chapter breaks, don’t worry about chapter order or even story order. You have to write the story as it comes to you. Start some where in the story that interests you. Start with a scene that has a big bang and work both directions form there. That’s one way to do it.

Outline, ugh. I have never been very good at outline stories. They peter out for me. But maybe for you they might work. Decide what you want to happen in chapter one. John meets Girl. (Scene one): Chapter one John finds out girl is alien (scene Two): Chapter one Girl kidnaps John to take him to her world (scene three big bang cliff hanger) Then chapter two and so on making sure you have two or three scenes to every chapter and a big bang ending one to draw the reader into the next. If you hit the brick wall you can refer to your outline to prod you into what you should be writing.

Next is groan factor—forget it. I call that look back at what you just wrote and the flush of embarrassment you get when you say to yourself, “ugh I just wrote that crap?” the groan factor. Ignore it and go on. Many times it’s not as bad as you think, and even if it is the object at this point is to get a complete story down and then go back and fix what needs to be. This seems to be a universal truth among those who do not ever finish----they get stuck fixing what they have already wrote and get so caught up in it that the world and characters abandon them and they lose the story momentum.

You have to set a goal for yourself, a time goal is ok, but really a word count goal is better. Say I will write 250 words per day. It’s an easy one to do. Do not leave your seat until you have written 250 words—I don’t care if they are awful—you need to do this for 6 weeks (the time it takes to establish a habit)(train your brain as it where) You are teaching your brain that it will produce written words at this time of day and it will do this many of them. Once you have done this then up the ante and go for 300 words and so on until you reach a place you are comfortable with. Think 250 is too hard—think again I am at over 500 just right here. You can do it.

Nothing to write about—describe something, check out Writer’s Digests daily writing prompts, join a crit group that uses daily writing exercises---- write and write----but do it regularly.

A writer writes—everyday no matter what like the postman rain or shine----write no matter what you feel like, no matter what is going on find 15 min and sit down and pound out something even if it’s a rant about the neighbors dog peeing on your bushes. You have to teach your brain to write productively.

And that, folks, is what I think productive writers have discovered.

They have trained their brains to switch on the productivity when they sit down and open their word processor program.

You too can do this.

We should all remember the immortal words of Miguel de Cervantes: "By the street of By-and-By, one arrives at the house of Never."

BTW, Welcome!

Now, now, children, stop rolling around laughing, it's rude!

Seriously, if there is a show or movie or series of books you love and know inside-out, write some stories of your own on the subject. You can decide to post them or not at sites like fanfiction.net...it's up to you. Yes, you'll probably generate reams of crapola, but so what? You'll be working with characters in a universe that you love and you'll be motivated by your own enjoyment of the subject.

Vincent De Layfeyete (assumed Identity)

For most of us, to attempt that many words and fail would be discouraging.

I think 10,000 words per week is do-able and still challenging. Also, before we start we could give or assign each other story ideas.

I hope many will participate. And I'm open to suggestions or methods. Other goals (reasons) aside from what I've already stated, are: 1)we learn to stop being so meticulous with our word choice and our style, instead focusing on telling the story 2)increase writing rate and productivity 3)and giving the members of this forum nice holiday gifts (our stories posted for all to read).

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And to keep us accountable and motivated, we would have to post for others to read, no critique involve.

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but, we could e-mail to a group - I think that would be okay.

It seems to take an assignment to get me going - whether that is related to work or past college experience, I don't know.

But I would be willing to try to meet an assignment/deadline to get the creative juices flowing again. On the "Writing Decision Stories" thread, something similar is about to begin.

actually, i do something similar to this when i begin a lot of my projects. i put the pre-fleshed out characters others have already created into my scenarios and go from there. it helps take me out of that prep-work/backstory phase and makes me start really thinking about the story i want to tell. usually, by the time i'm done i can replace the names (and a few descriptions) of the characters and no one can tell who they began as. doesn't always work, but sometimes i can get some great stuff.

TTFN & lol

Just call me,
Vincent de Lafeyete

I would suggest we assign word counts. This would have to be on the honor system, but we should try to make this as encouraging as possible so people don't feel defeated.

Someone (I could) could set up a web page that lists the word count we wrote each week and this way we are accountable to each other. I would rather try to find tools and motivation to keep us writing then stifle anyone from producing anything. IF we want the group to read something then we could send it to the others with an explaination of what type of feedback we are looking for.

Trist

As far as what to write, I like the idea of giving each other story ideas if we need a jumpstart. If we're already working on an idea of our own, maybe we could have the option to keep plowing ahead on it instead. Any thoughts on that?

I'm also with Marianne on the word count issue; the holidays are a pretty hectic time of year. I want to write, though, so if we just keep the weekly goal relatively small for now, that might work.

I for one would welcome the opportunity to just slam out the words and not worry so much about the evil editor in my head. I need to hush my ambivalence and work on my productivity. :-) Great idea, Shadow-x!

Jen
jen_hayward@hotmail.com

http://www.webcom.com/wordings/artofwrite/storystarter.html

It gives you the following...

Main Character's Sex
Main Character's Job or Profession
An Archetype: Story Starter archetypes may be universal or not, ranging from Robin Hood to the Pope.
A Key Object or Symbol
Setting: A time and/or place in which the story occurs.
Theme: The psychological/spiritual/moral issue at hand for the protagonist. >From empowerment to evil.

Sometimes that helps me get started on something. And it makes me stretch my imagination a little to try to include as many of the things as possiable.

Breanna

I mocked up a web page of what I was thinking go to http://www.twizzlesticks.50megs.com/writing_word_count.html I added green and red colors to the columns to give everyone something to 'shoot' for each week/month

Let me know what you think. I would like to keep this as basic as possible (to reduce coding time) and if someone else would rather do it, be my guest

-Trist