posted
As I write, I become increasingly pestered by questions of elements that make up a sucessful fiction world. I like to be able to keep all manner of attitudes and occupations in mind while writing so as to enhance the trueness of the novel. Unfortunately, there are so many things that I may not have thought of that I am now requesting aid.
I have found the following: Occupations: Smiths (white, black, etc.) Coopers ...
sorry, my current time is cut short due to urgent business, so please continue my list
posted
Golly Fahrion, you haven't told us much about your world. Are you presuming a Middle Ages type culture and technology? Should we include airline pilots and computer programmers?
Is your story set in the country or the city? I'm guessing it's in a Medeival city, but that's only based on your mention of smiths.
When you think abuot these details, some of the answers will come to you. And you don't need to study medeival history, either. Just make things up from your imagination.
posted
Gee, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Doc here. If you happen to be writing in Medieval setting, I'd strongly urge you to research it. There are lots of great books. What happens otherwise is that you get what a lot of people have written about: A sort of pseudo-Medieval society that doesn't run deep and has a lot of inconsistancies, falsehoods, and cliches in it.
If you're making up something that's not specifically historical, I'd also suggest working out a clear idea of how the culture works before you start writing. Where does the food come from? Who raises it? Why do they do that? If a character knows how to use a weapon, how did s/he learn? Where does your character's money come from? Is there a significant religious background? I'm getting into worldbuilding mode now; I'll stop.
By the way, from my point of view the number one most common inaccuracy in stories that are meant to be set in a Medieval or pseudo-Medieval society: Lack of pervasive religion. Christianity was absolutely central to Medieval european society, saturating the culture and reinforcing the social structure ...
Good grief, I'm pontificating (pun perhaps intended). Sorry about that.
Anyway, the other advantage of researching the culture in question is that you get a lot of material you can use, for instance lists of occupations.
In a rural, Medieval milieu, keep in mind that your most common profession by far is Peasant, working land owned by local nobility for a share of the crops raised. You need a lot of peasants to support a small contingent of knights and nobility what have you (if you happen to be using the part of the Medieval period in which there were knights; the novel I'm working on is set in 14th-century Lombardy, where there ain't no knights). The peasants are usually just subsisting, while the only significant responsibilities of the Lord or what have you are to effectively administer the agricultural land and to repel attackers.
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Pagan, I suppose I did make the assumption that Fahrion was writing a fantasy and not historical fiction.
If it's a fantasy, there's no need to learn anything more about the real Medieval world. If the fantasy world doesn't have grain then there's no need for grain farmers, bakers, brewers, etc. Instead, maybe it has wonderpuff, a food product that floats up from the depths of the ocean three times a tear. In that case, a successful society will find a way to have large boats harvest the wonderpuff. Perhaps suntamers know the secrets of drying the wonderpuff (e.g. morning sunlight makes it sweet, afternoon sunlight makes it spicy, moonlight takes years to dry it but endows it with magical properties, etc.). Then perhaps Starbucksters know how to brew wonderpuff into a delicious cappa-frappa-latte-mocha-ccino.
See? Just change a few things and you have a Medieval society with lots of new occupations. You might have the same sort of class system, but different jobs.
Really I was referring specifically to Fantasy set in a Medieval or sorta-Medieval milieu (mine novel's Fantasy, for instance). I agree with you: If there's wonderpuff, then you don't have quite the same structure, but then the question arises of why there would be a Medieval political structure at all, if food was so readily available and people didn't have to grub a living for it. If sweeping changes like this are made to the culture, it begins to strain belief that everything else in the culture would be the same.
Anyway, I'd read a well-thought-out story with Wonderpuff as readily as one based on historical Medieval society, as long as the writer gave a care to having a believable milieu and didn't wave it off as too much of a bother.
Fahrion, I gather from your post that this is exactly your concern, fleshing out your setting.
posted
Then you can make the argument that the wonderpuff world isn't a 'medieval'as we know it to be. I think that if you are trying to write high fantasy, which smacks of medieval to me, and you want your world to be functional that you need to make yourself familiar with how people lived in a time period of the 9th to the 16th century. That certainly provides a vast canvas from which to choose your world's elements. If you are writing adventure fantasy then I believe your world can less medieval. How about 'fantasy of the absurd' where the reader is willing to suspend the belief in a world that makes sense as we know it. I am trying to think of an example of something I have read that is like the wonderpuff world, but I cant think of anything. I tend to read more high fantasy or adventure fantasy than anything else. Terry Pratchett's Discworld is the best I can come up with. He has elements of a medieval world that are sort of turned inside out. He takes what was superstion and fantastical in our medeival times and makes it ordinary, everyday existence. The important thing is that the reader believe that this world we create is 'real' and that it works. I also believe that religion pervades human existence and if your story encompasses a world than you must consider the religious beliefs of its people.
Posts: 173 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Sorry... Lunch breaks are too short. I suppose I should start with the main basis for my world. It may be described as midieval, Doc, but I would have to say that it is merely a world without electricity and it's like. It does take place in a city. To enlargen the list:
Smiths (black, white, etc.) Coopers Weavers Tanners Formulae, ie: Pharmacists (Apothecaries of the body) Healers/Doctors Apothecaries of Minor solutions Wood: Millers Furnure-makers Carvers (sculpture) Traders: Factors Cloth Spices Wool Grain Metals Jewelry Perfumes Merchants Peddlers Artisans City: Waste control (mostly prisoners) Water/Aquaducts Road Maintainance Police/Patrol Judicial Taxmen Bankers Legislature Agriculture: Farmers of Crop Farmers of Poultry and Animal ...
Far from complete, I have to leave now, but now that I have clarified my search, I now hope for more relevent responses. Thanks- Fahrion
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To Pagan- I do write Fantasy/Science Fiction, but I desire to make it as plausible as possible and without creating new and strange things that cannot be related in our own world. Nothing like Wonderpuff, though something more plausible, such as a different crop to replace corn would be fine... I have my own set ideas of a created story as this. True complexities, such as trade, will be implicated into Quante, virtually unchanged. I try to write works that can be educational of the real world while providing a fine storyline that can be related to. The closest thing that I can relate this to is the style of L.E. Modesitt, Jr. in his Saga of Recluse.
Posts: 101 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
how about gentry or religious leaders that have control over some aspects of a trade? somebody's got to take advantage of the workers, after all.
posted
Fahrion, what do you mean "educational of the real world" like L.E. Modesitt? I've read the whole recluse saga. He did not do historical fiction--he made up most of the details. He wrote a fantasy world and fused it with his interest: "power and ethics"
If you want to write a fantasy, you don't need to know the medieval structure. You can have whatever you want in your story, such as cyborns and unicorns, but just make sure the inner logics and laws of your story are consistent.
posted
Chronicles posted some sites in his Realism vs Fantasy thread (Don't think you need to read the whole thing, we digressed ). This general subject has also been discussed in How Much is Too Much? (which has some excellent comments). And of course, it pops up again and again.
I can't offer much more than to refer you to Poul Anderson's very amusing On Thud and Blunder. I always need to caution writers, SCA is not the beginning and end of historical accuracy...but the article is very funny.
quote:Funny as hell...if you happen to find the thought of the damned writhing in eternal agony amusing.
posted
Shadow-X Are you that daft? Can you not use such ideas as expressed in the Recluse saga to explain similar political and social in reality. I have to some of my co-worker's children. But that is not my point. I do not want historical fiction. I want fantasy fiction that can be related to by its affinity to real circumstances.
In response to Cosmi: When I began this thread, I completely forgot the main reason I did: the complexity of politics, religion, and trade . How each intertwine and affect each other.
Take an example for sake of a starting point.
Terenar is a small landlocked country of Quante. The ruler, Cannial Teroh, has maintained a policy of neutrality while Elyria and Karador battle each other. However, war is taking a toll on trade, and the Terenese are afraid. They hoard their wares and religious leader Jennar Manaroh has begun leading the dissatisfied citizens to his church of bitheism. Teroh, however, fears such fervent spirituality, for that is what breeds zealots and generally a higher emotional level, and when men think with their hearts they often fail to think with their heads, and there may be a civil war.
General idea. I would like some comment on problems or incidents that may be introduced by these events. Thanks.
posted
Very good. I'm not sure, but I believe this was out of a writing help book by Issac Assimov (either him or Card, but with how many I've read I'm really not sure)- start by taking a simple conflict, then ask the simple question of why. Build off of that, and create more and more reasonings. Throw in other, more serious conflicts, and a few characters if you've got some you really like. Let things unfold for you, until you have a full story based solely over a simple principle. The one I saw in the book was this- Billy hit Sally. Try messing with that, you'd be surprised what that can turn into.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I think that Fahrion was speaking about the world his story is taking place in, rather than the conflict of the story.
Anyway, If you're looking for sources on the middle ages, two that I've found are:
Life in a Medieval City, by Joseph and Franes Gies. It describes what the city of Troyes was like in 1250 AD. Topics like housewives, churches, schools, and so on.
The other is 'The Year 1000' by Robert Lacey adn Danny Danziger, which describes life in Englan in the year 1000 AD (obviously).
I haven't read any of the second book yet, but the first was informative.
posted
Straws- No, I made that up off of the top of my head for the sake of drawing a beginning point and a way of expressing a world vaguely similar to mine- the only book on writing that I've ever read is Stephen King's On Writing, so I thought that my idea was my own.
Harold has the right idea, but the main goal I seek (maybe it's a little different now) is a plausible mindstate and reaction ideas for circumstances for the general populus. Am I making sense? I hope so. I have never been one to understand psychology or sociology at all. The whole thing with the midieval-type workforce (which I have found more of, thanks to all) is to set the mood for the people, for the basic mindset of the people of midieval Europe is different (not much, but several subtle differences may be cited) from futuristic galactica.
posted
Oh, sorry, I didn't phrase that very well, did I? I meant to say that the advice I gave following that up was straight from the help books I'd read. The comment very good was saying that your setup was nice. Self help books don't tend to give setups like that.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Jan 2003
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. How each intertwine and affect each other.
