posted
Okay, folks, I'd like your take on a comment I received from someone reviewing my book (not a professional editor, but a published, professional author). She noted that no one in the book has sex, and said this may make the story more appropriate for a YA audience. While this may be valid, it makes me wonder: do all stories for adults HAVE to include sexual encounters to be considered "for adults?" What if a work contains other mature themes? If sex is required, should a writer strive to include some in order to get the rest of the story in front of an adult audience, even if it doesn't forward the rest of the plot?
I'm truly curious, as I didn't specifically set out not to include the characters having sex, but the act never naturally fit in with the rest of the action.
posted
Whatever. If your book is strong enough, you shouldn't have to include anything that doesn't further the story. Likewise, if your book stinks, no amount of sex, violence, sensationalism, whatever will save it. If there is a "rule" like that, it makes me shudder. What brave new world are we living in?
For evidence, look at LotR for one. Practically even romance free, let alone sex. But it's considered a classic. Talking about classics, almost none of them have sexual scenes. But they are considered adult literature. I don't know who said that, but I disagree with her very strongly. Do what is right for your story, and people will read it. Adults will read it.
OSC has said over and over again that you don't put anything in a story that doesn't absolutely need to be there--that everything in the story should be able to fight for and win the right to be in the story.
The idea that adult = sex acts is crazy, but it sounds to me as if that is what this professionally published author is saying.
Surely adult fiction includes a great many things--complicated things, grey-area things, make-the-reader-think things--not found in young adult fiction, and characters having sex is only one of them.
Let me offer a story I have heard, which may well be apocraphal, about John Grisham (not only a professionally published author, but a best-selling author).
Upon being asked why his books don't have characters having sex in them, he is said to have replied that there were two main reasons. One, his mother is still alive, and two, his wife says he knows nothing about it.
I have to confess that I've never read any of Grisham's books, so I don't know if his characters have sex in them or not.
The characters of Tony Hillerman, another best-selling author, don't, though. Nor do those of Anne Perry, yet another best-selling author.
Maybe if you don't have a good mystery going in your book, or suspenseful action of some kind to draw in the readers, you need to have your characters have sex before you can have a best seller. <shrug>
If that's the case, I think it says some interesting things about modern fiction.
posted
I have read every one of Anne Perry's books--love her work. But her characters do have sex. Monk and his wife have sex, The Pitts do, and in one a woman murdered her husband when she caught him having sex with their son.
The difference is that it is not graphically explained. It is hinted at. One line I liked in Perry's work was something like, Monk got home and found Hester cooking dinner he slipped his arms around her and the dinner burned. Something like that.
Sex sells, and perhaps this author got her book with a graphic blow by blow instruction manual sex scene, published--- so she feels that's what you need.
You don't.
Many best selling books don't have graphic sex in them, they may hint or let the reader have the expectation of sex-----and that IMHO is good enough. In fact lately the trend has gone away form the graphic sex of the 80’s that almost every novel seemed to have. Lack of sex does not make it a young person’s novel.
I have written stories with sex and with hinted and understood yes they had sex---use what fits your story.
posted
Shawn's right, I was defining "characters having sex" more explicitly with regard to Anne Perry's work. (Maybe this fits under the "showing vs telling" distinction. Perry doesn't show the characters having sex, but she does tell the reader that they do.)
The lack of sex in a story will not turn off an adult. (unless they’re a perv, who picked up your pick, and thought they were buying the latest issue of SWANK) Sometimes quite the opposite is true. I’ve read books where the description and circumstances surrounding a sex scene are just horrible, to the point it almost makes me turn to the “About the Author” page and see if the writer was thirteen, as their attitude towards sex just seemed really juvenile. My point being that the lack of sex can actually make a book more mature in my eyes.
To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, and I’m hoping this might be what your reviewer was referring to. The conscious avoidance of the topic would make it seem as if you’re trying to get a PG rating. I’m speaking as if the reader, or a fellow writer could see where having two characters couple could actually progress your story, and it seems as if this would be the natural progression. Then it wouldn’t be as if your writing was childish, but you were going after the YA market.
posted
Ay, I've been getting headaches trying to find ways to avoid the subject in one of my works that I'm attempting to leave "accesible". I mean, how can you have a story with a complex adult love life without at least mentioning the subject?
Posts: 58 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: do all stories for adults HAVE to include sexual encounters to be considered "for adults?"
No. I can think of plenty of books that lack sex that are for the adult, not YA audience. A story needs the scenes that tell that story. If that includes sex (implied or otherwise), okay. If not, focusing on the multitude of other life experiences of adult life is certainly sufficient to create an adult tone.
Building off JOHN’s devils advocate comment, maybe a book which lacks a sense of sexual awareness (attraction to other people, flirtation, etc.) when it otherwise be expected would make an otherwise adult book seem more YA. But that really is more a problem of characterization (since most people are affected by such things at some level) unless that lack of awareness is something particular defining a character.
Regarding John's devil's advocate position, in this case, the characters have romantic attractions, one is actually married, and there is plenty of mature interaction of a romantic nature. There simply isn't an overt sex scene because it just wasn't integral to the plot at any point. However, I was daunted by the thought that I couldn't market the story to adults just because of sex (or lack thereof), as the story threads are intended for a mature audience.
Thanks for all your responses...I look forward to more discussion!
[This message has been edited by Hildy9595 (edited January 28, 2003).]
posted
LOL... Well, if you were writing a romance, there'd have to be sex. And lots of graphic detail. But I can only think of 2 fantasy novels that I've read of lord knows how many that actually had sex in it. Well, 3, but in the third one sex was alluded to. We (the reader) saw the kissing and the leading up to, but that was it.
I think if it's integral to your story or naturally occurs (or would feel/read odd not to be there) then yes, sex should be included. But if you're not writing a romance, it's purely optional.
ALSO consider that it may be off-putting to some readers... Some might argue that they picked up a fantasy or scifi novel to be swept off into a grand epic adventure, not be carried away into a bedroom. If they'd wanted that, well, they'd read a romance. (This is a point my husband made when I had an unnecessary sex scene in the first draft of my novel.)
quote:Regarding John's devil's advocate position, in this case, the characters have romantic attractions, one is actually married, and there is plenty of mature interaction of a romantic nature. There simply isn't an overt sex scene because it just wasn't integral to the plot at any point. However, I was daunted by the thought that I couldn't market the story to adults just because of sex (or lack thereof), as the story threads are intended for a mature audience.
In that case my devil's advocate postition does not apply. I don't think anything should be foreced. If you as the author don't think it would progress the plot, or more importantly the characters then don't do it. Again, I agree wih your position that lack of an overt sex scene does not exclude an adult audience.
JOHN!
PS: Hildy, I didn't see you on my topic talking about me completing my novel and thanked everyone here. You were one of the people I wanted to thank specifically as you read a passage (ironically enough, an overt sex scene) I was ahving trouble with. So, thanks!
The problem with sex scenes in novels is that they are more often than not depicted in the same way that death is in modern media – pornographically. In other words, sex is trivialized, objectified, reduced to mechanics and plumbing without any regard for the human beings involved. Sex is treated as something we do with our bodies, rather than something we are in our souls (credit P. Kreeft).
The reality is that your novel is filled with sex, by virtue of the fact that it is written about humans (big assumption for this board) and their maleness or femaleness is more a part of their being than any other of their attributes. Your readers are smart, they don’t need a biology lesson to pick up on the sexuality and the sexual tension it breeds in your novel.
If you do choose to include sex explicitly, I’d like to know how your characters really felt about it. If it was a first encounter, was it awkward? Disappointing? Embarrassing? Was it regretted afterwards? During? If it was blissful, why so? Because it satisfied an itch? Because it was the ultimate act of selflessness between two people? Because it represented a choice for one person at the exclusion of everyone else?
The truth is, real people don’t have sex all the time. The narrative of my own life has gone through many 400 page stretches without sex. This has been especially true during times of high stress, like those most often depicted in SF.
Regards,
Brian
[This message has been edited by reid (edited January 29, 2003).]
quote:The conscious avoidance of the topic would make it seem as if you’re trying to get a PG rating....if...having two characters couple could actually progress your story, and it seems as if this would be the natural progression. Then it wouldn’t be as if your writing was childish, but you were going after the YA market.
One of the problems with this is that what some consider a natural progression into sex, others don't. Specifically, the too-accepted view today promoted in the entertainment media that sex is a casual, amoral bodily function that neither can nor should be restrained. Just because characters don't subscribe to that world view shouldn't relegate a book to the YA audience.
For that matter, it should be the same with a PG movie rating. It seems twisted that "adult" has come to mean loose, vulgar, sickeningly violent, and/or gory.
quote:...if you were writing a romance, there'd have to be sex. And lots of graphic detail.
Perhaps mostly true, but not entirely. Although there is a lot of graphic sex in romances today, I understand there are different levels of graphic depiction, even represented in different imprints of the same publisher. There are still some romances for those who don't care for steamy prose, like those by Barbara Cartland, I believe.
Bottom line, not all adults want to read and/or watch the seven deadly sins -- or even the consumation of a moral relationship -- graphically depicted in books or on film.
quote:One of the problems with this is that what some consider a natural progression into sex, others don't. Specifically, the too-accepted view today.
That's where characters come into play. My view on the subject is meaningless; I'm not the one in the situation. If my characters believe that it's smart for them to wait, then they won't have sex, but if they give into their animal lust---well, then that's what they do.
JOHN!
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited January 29, 2003).]
quote:I’m speaking as if the reader, or a fellow writer could see where having two characters couple could actually progress your story, and it seems as if this would be the natural progression.
quote:That's where characters come into play. My view on the subject is meaningless; I'm not the one in the situation. If my characters believe....
In the original quote on which I was basing my comments, it was the reader or another writer who were said to determine whether sex was a natural progression in a particular situation. I simply think different readers and different writers may not agree on what the natural progression is in the same situation.
Although I don't think an author's views are meaningless (since an author's persona permeates his/her work -- I think right off of Hemingway), I do agree that characters must believe in what they're doing. But my point was that just because characters don't subscribe to a particular world view, have a difference of opinion on that natural progression, that shouldn't relegate a book to the YA audience when there are adults who share those particular characters' views.
Hildy's author associate seems to believe that only the readers/writers/characters who believe that any natural progression leads to sex are the ones who define the adult market. From all the level-headed comments I'm reading here, it seems as if no one agrees.
posted
I agree with you, and totally understand what you're saying. The la lack of sex does not instantly make something immature. Personally, I don't believe that sex is a need--at least not in the same way as food or water, and I totally disagree with the popular "it feels good so I'm gonna do it as much as I can" theory.
Just to throw another wrench in the works. What if you have a character who doesn't believes that sex is a recreation sport, but as no problem using the f-word ever other word. Now, there's no sex, but because of the language it couldn't be marketed to young people.
So, no the lack of sex does not make something immature, and as I stated quite the opposite is true. There's a certain popular fantasy writer who in my opinion seems to have a very juvinile view of sex, and a lot of his writing doesn't appeal to me, an adult (25 if you must know) because of it.
I don't think the author's view is pointles, but if the character is unlike the author then what the author would do in that same situation really doesn't come in to play.
posted
I went through a bunch of my books last night. I read a lot of prehistorical fiction. Out of seven different authors, two had vivid "how to" sex scenes.
The First Americans series by William Sarbande, And the "Clan of the Cave Bear" books, Jean M. Arual<sp> (personally I quit reading her books at "The Plains of Passage" it should have been called the plains of sex.
Some of the others hinted at sex or let you think sex happened. But they didn't spell it out.
One thing I will say---
The Clan of the Cave Bear series---the first book was a wow--no ones done this kinda thing and it was well researched and thought out. The books went downhill from there. Pretty soon sex was the only thing selling them.
William Sarbande's books----no idea why I even kept reading these after the first two, I stoped after number three. The sex was brutal, demeaning to women, and unrealistic. All these prehistoric North Americans thought about was sex sex sex, all they did was have sex and fight over sex ect.
I went through some more books, ones I stoped in the middle of or didn't read any others by that author--many had graphic sex scenes---
I'm not a prude. Ask anyone who read my Dark Fantasy "The Forge", but it seemed to me that the sex was there to try and make up for poor writing. And perhpas it did sell the book.
posted
Shawn, I had the exact reaction to Clan of the Cave Bear. First one was intriguingly different, but I'm not sure I even got through the second. It's been awhile.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Well, I concur with the sentiments regarding Auel's works - after the 1st book, Playboy could have been the prime marketing tool for the story.
I have alot of different thoughts on this subject - having worked in the field of sexual assault, child abuse and neglect, etc., I don't take it lightly.
I think that artists (be they writers, painters, musicians, sculptors, etc) have a responsibility to the ethical portrayal of people, events, situations. Notice I did not say truthful - I said ethical.
If we as a society are for the dignity of people, especially those that have been treated or relegated to positions of disadvantage, abuse, neglect, objectification, then I don't think we can stand by and ignore or wink at those that continue to perpetrate the cycle of abuse, degradation and objectification of people.
I also think we have a responsibility in our work to show the realities of the objectification, degradation, abuse, neglect - as in, what the real consequences are - what the struggle is to recover from the effects of the above treatment and the cost to society at large. And I guess, given that thought, that we could also take a pro-active stance in building worlds of imagination where those things don't occur - so poeple can be presented with a picture of something different - more respectful, thoughtful, supportive of individual life.
So, having said that - I don't believe that you need sex to write well. Unless, as has been stated, it plays an integral part in the story and the use of it is ethical.
I am tired of children, women, immigrants, homosexuals and all thiose people that are considered to be "less than" used for money making purposes. And change needs to come at both the individual level and the community level. Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but I think we have the power to help efect those kinds of changes through the work we do.
quote:"The Plains of Passage" it should have been called the plains of sex.
Naw, Plains of Sex wouldn't have scanned. Maybe Plains of Pleasure or Passages of Prurience or even...well, better not go there.
Yeah, I don't know anyone that actually finished it either.
I think that part of speaking the truth involves communicating our true view of the world. If we think that rape is horrible, not pleasurable, then our depiction of rape must horrify rather than please, or we are liars. And I think that there are objective standards for some of these things. Rape is really horrible. It isn't just our opinion, it is reality. And if anyone else thinks differently, they are decieved.
I read a news story about a girl that became a porn star. She went into it thinking that she would have fun and make a little easy money, but her very first time they asked her to do all sorts of things that she didn't find fun at all and in her interveiw she was talking about how she just had to turn off her feelings and think about how soon it would be over and how much money she would get and anything about what she was actually doing at the moment. It was really horrible. She had a "relationship" with another porn star and was thinking that they would get married (of course they didn't, not that it would have been a good thing if they had). Her whole life had been ruined by all the lies that she believed. I really wonder if she can enjoy sex anymore, I mean normal sex with someone she's in love with (or thinks she's in love with). Or is it always going to be this horror for her?
And life is only going to get worse for her. She'll get older, and she'll probably get diseases (she already has had one, I think), and heaven help her children if she has any.
Okay, enough with the depressing stuff. I don't write about people having sex all the time and I don't think that anyone needs to have sex in their stories (of course, I prefer stories about war and fighting and all that, so there just isn't as much room for sex). It always bugs me when someone writes sex into a scene where it just makes no sense. Like, you'll have some soldiers--and being tired and scared and wishing they had more body armor and ammo--naturally they strip down and start having sex, which makes everything all right again. Hyeah.
posted
In my last novel, the first int he series I am now writing, I had a hinted at sex scene--the they go into the bedroom and then wake up in the morning thing.
In the second book the man's wife is raped---no I don't go into any details. The husband finds out abut it and sets out to find the one who did it. (shortened simplified version here)
ONe person who read the first book and loved it then asked for hte second. Then they asked why I didn't have any sex in it and said it would sell better if I "showed" the rape.
Sheesh----guess there are more people out there than I thought who want just the "sex".
posted
I really should stick to my section of Young Writers, (I'm 16 after all) but let me say that its hard to find a teenager who doesn't look at a pornography magazine or for that matter has possibly had sex. The truth is that when teens read something most young woman want romance. I've read things from teens that some of you parents would be disgusted by. I've had this one thing I wrote that did include sex. I didn't go into detail but you could understand. Still Sex to a youth, if he or she can be mature about it, is fine. Although some teens will take measures, and the government likes to do as they do at times with the media, and do as they wish with these stories. I do find myself mature when it comes to this topic for the fact that I won't write these things for school or for that matter let my parents read it. (I don't show my parents anything I write, they don't even know its a hobby for me)
Posts: 59 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It's been a long time but I have an arguement in favor of The Valley of Horses. For those unaware, this is the second book in Jean Auel's Earth's Children series that begins with Clan of the Cavebear. Yes, there was sex in this book. Quite a bit of it. But anyone who thinks this book is ONLY about sex is missing the point, along with the majority of the book. The Valley of Horses is a rich and powerful expedition into the cultures of early humans, and into the psyche of a woman who has been exiled from everything she knows and must rediscover her self. Part of this rediscovery is sex. But it goes far beyond that, and thinking of the book only in terms of sex scenes cheapens it to a disgusting degree. I challenge anyone who disagrees with me to pick the book up and read it again, SKIP all the sex scenes, and see if they can get anything more valuable out of the book. You may be surprised.
On another note, has anyone mentioned anything about OSC's books? I'm reading Xenocide to my husband now and though it has a few (rather amusing) references to sex, there are absolutely no explicit sex scenes; however, it is unmistakeably an adult book.
posted
As I said I read up to the plains of passage, no, sex is not just what the other books were about,but you prove my point---read the book and skip the sex, you said,and you will see a good story--so why did she need the sex in the first place? And the Plains of Passage---they had sex again and again and talkd about it and once they figured out that sex was how babies were made they still did it and talked about it.
I did not buy her most recent book for that reason.
The question was does your book need sex---as stated,no,it does not and if I have to wade through unneeded sex or I should skip the sex to find the meat of the story---then it was not needed in the first place.
posted
My problem isn't so much the amount of sex, but the way it's depicted. I enjoy Terry Goodkind's books (except the last one--yuck)although they are a bit of a gulity pleasure. I hate his portrayal of sex however. The subject doesn't often come up, but when it does you get the feeling he's just trying to be cool and get away with being dirty---although it is thinly veiled. Not to be overly graphic, but I have a hard time buying allusions to fellatio in sword and sorcery book. It's one of the things he does that makes the book such a guilty pleasure. In the back of my head I know they're really not that good, but I still buy them when they come out.
posted
I have a couple of points to make...actually, mere observations more like it.
First, I agree with srhowen in saying that in the Earth's Children series, the first book was the best, and though the next two were also pretty good, I found Plains of Passage (Plains of Sex? LOL) and Shelters of Stone to lack quite a bit. There was a lot of needless sex in these two, and in the last, I had the distinct impression that Auel was trying to sell the whole novel simply on ses. Otherwise, it kinda sucked. (That whole Song of the Earth Mother thing? Yeesh! How many times were they going to go through that irritating thing?)
Second, I think DragynGuide has a point in saying that the first three books were more than just sex. That it was a young girl's journey to rediscover her past is, IMHO, pretty much the whole point of all six (next and last to be published soon, I think) books.
Basically, if sex doesn't add to the story, it subtracts from it.
And unless you're looking for lessons, explicit, detailed, step-by-step sex is completey pointless.
Chris.
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited February 01, 2003).]
posted
By the way, I did read and enjoy the first three Auel books. In the first book, there isn't any real prurience (unless you were sick enough to find Burk or whatever his name was sexy).
In the second book, I just about died laughing about Jondolar's sexuality. I mean, maybe it's different for women, but I actually am a man so it was funny as anything. I won't go into detail but the sex was just stupid (the cross cultural relationship was interesting and all, though). I really think that Auel must have plagerized a bunch of really third rate romance novels or something to get her sex scenes for Valley of the Horses.
And the third book the sex itself wasn't so bad, but the whole "sexually liberated prehistoric paradise" thing was totally out of hand. I mean, I read it and it was interesting, but puhleese!
So yeah, I have to say that she should have just left the sex out of her books. They would have been much better.
posted
"they asked why I didn't have any sex in it and said it would sell better if I "showed" the rape."
why did they say it would be better? maybe it would add weight to the incident and the husband's quest afterward to go after the rapist. afterall, when most people hear or read the word "rape" today, they are moved on a concious level, but i for one no longer have an emotional response.
posted
I think that it would be far more useful to show the "after effects" of rape - I think everyone has a pretty good idea of the mechanics of the act - and I support you in showing no more than is useful to the plot.
Posts: 70 | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
That was my point. It was what he imagined had happened to his wife---she was raped--but his mind comes up with what she felt ect--and it is a first person story told from his POV so he would have had to see it happen, not just hear the rapist brag about it, which I thought had a greater effect.
quote: Straws posted January 28, 2003 05:41 PM Ay, I've been getting headaches trying to find ways to avoid the subject in one of my works that I'm attempting to leave "accesible". I mean, how can you have a story with a complex adult love life without at least mentioning the subject?
I have a story where the two characters that you meet in the intro never have sex… there is lots of electricity, and the female does make comments to herself of “if I only had time” but that is as close as they get. And the people who have read that hadn’t commented on the lack of sex, because the lack was actually part of the story. – since these same people have read my erotica, and liked it, I’m pretty sure they would have commented if sex really was needed there.
quote: SiliGurl posted January 28, 2003 06:39 PM LOL... Well, if you were writing a romance, there'd have to be sex. And lots of graphic detail.
This to me isn’t necessarily true. Yes, you have authors like Johanna Lindsey who writes very steamy sex scenes, but then Jude Deveroux doesn’t necessarily. Sometimes the scene is alluded to, then you cut to the next day. For that matter I don’t recall Diana Gabaldon (sp?) writing steamy sex scenes either – though she does get the idea going. I take that back she did have that scene in the window. However, most of her scenes are things like someone remembering the feel of the night/hour before, and not the blow by blow. Even Nora Roberts doesn’t add in a sex scene just cause (but then I started reading her when she was doing Silhouettes, and most of the early ones don’t have sex – even a hinting, at all).
Also, in quite a few of the “monthly”s one of the rules is that they don’t have sex.
Aside from all that, in general, I don’t think that sex is needed to make a story adult, if it doesn’t work with the story. I read an article somewhere by Asimov, in which he was commenting that he saw in some book that he was considered a great author for youths.. only he had never seen himself as that kind of an author. He wrote what he felt were strong stories, and they had definite adult themes in them.
On the other hand, you have authors like Rowling whose books are defiantly marketed for kids, but just as many if not more adults read them than children. The stories are defiantly getting darker as she goes, and less kid friendly.
My last comment on this is that in most books having a sex scene last more than 2 or 3 pages often gets boring anyway.
posted
"He lowered himself upon me, his own flesh heated as with fever, and I shivered under him . . . Then the fiery sword severed me from consciousness and set fire to my body."
Pg 50-56 "The Drums of Autumn" - D. Gabaldon - pretty much a running narrative of Adam and Eve revisited. Tasteful AND steamy.
posted
Gabaldon startedout as a romance writer then her books took off main stream. Time travel and element of magic--a small element---but they are romance.
posted
Man, I know everyone’s opinion my vary, but that quote was really bad. It sounds like a grocery store romance. I was surprised by the total lack of the expression “heaving bosoms” or “throbbing manhood.” Again, this is just my opinion, but that is the kind of depiction of sex that would totally turn me off (no pun intended) from a book or at least the scene. You don’t’ have graphic and use horrible, horrible, euphemisms to be sensual.
For anyone who had paid the least bit of attention to some of my past posts you know I’m anything but a prude, but that quote was a bit much even for me. Although, I really didn’t take offense to the graphic nature, just the lackluster writing. This was exactly the kind of immature depiction I was talking about.
Sorry, if I came across as if I was bashing a favorite book of yours, but that was really bad.
posted
My apologies all - what I needed was the sarcastic smiley after "tasteful and steamy" . I was laughing uproariously at Mags saying D. Gabaldon had no steamy sex scenes. And that was the tail-end of 6 pages of it, at least.
I found her work in all other respects to be really good - but, as in Auel, the sex was way overdone.
Sorry about the quote, Kathleen - next time I'll just refer readers to the appropriate page.
posted
actaully, she isn't at the second hand book stores or the libraries that I have gone to... looked, but haven't found. - so I have had to buy her books full price.
However, on the topic of sex in stories...
While I was in a second hand book store that I tend to frequent, I was talking to the owner, and got around to discussing sex in books. She kinda nodded when I mentioned when I mentioned that the story would be seen as YA. However.... apparently there is something of a movement which is recent... it didn't exist 3 years ago, which allows the audience to know that someone is going on in the bedroom, without actually going into the bedroom. There are still authors who do the steamy stuff, but there are getting to be more and more readers who really don't want the steamy stuff, they just want a good story.
The other thing to think about is: are the author worred that their books will be put into the children section with other YA books, so that it would be gracing the shelves with Judy Bloom... Forever and Wifey aren't exactly sex free either.
If the fear is that teens will get into the book and continue following the author well into their 60's, then that is something else, and just think of the audience that you will be building for years to come.
Starship Troopers didn't start off as a YA book, it just ended up that way.
quote:apparently there is something of a movement which is recent... it didn't exist 3 years ago, which allows the audience to know that someone is going on in the bedroom, without actually going into the bedroom.
Whew--I have to disagree with this one! 3 years ago? What does that mean, every book written before 3 years ago had graphic sex--and if they didn't, they were a Young Readers book? I beg to differ, in a big way.
The majority of books out there have little or no sex in them. I've belonged to several book clubs, some as long as 10 years and they have in their book order forms a little note by the ones that contain graphic sex (D. Galabond is noted as graphic sex so is Auel) Very few books have the little note saying they have sex.
The idea that a book without graphic sex is a young book is crazy. Tony Hillerman, Anne Perry, Sue Grafton, Kathleen and Michael Gear, --- just to name a few bestsellers of adult fiction, have been writing for better than ten years. Grafton is on Q (she writes mysteries and is doing them in alphabetical order) --book 17! No graphic sex in them. Those hints are there every so often, but no graphic sex. Same with the others.
Anyone read Gone with the Wind? Try and find the graphic sex in there. Not graphic, but you knew it happened. And many of the above mentioned books don't even have the hints of sex.
If you say should "adult" books have sex? The answer is probably yes, adult as in XXX rated. But do books that appeal to an adult audience have to have sex---HELL NO!!!! Never have had to, and I hope never need to in the future. Man, if adult books had to have sex in them, graphic or otherwise(hinted at) almost every book out there would be in the young readers section.
I dare anyone to go to the adult fiction section of their library and pick ten books off the shelf at random. Find the sex in them, then look at publication dates. What's that? You couldn't find any sex? Whoo hoooo.
Off my soap box.
Shawn
Oh and as to YA books not having sex---poo on that too. Anyone read Judy and the Wolves? It's a young readers book. 6th grade level recommended reading for jr high lit classes. It has sex---and it wasn't the hinted at sort. Subbed for a teacher who was reading it out loud to her class---left me to read the sex scene. She did it to me with another book as well, though I can't recall the name right now. Both were YA books.
Sex does not make a book adult or YA----the subject matter does. Graphic sex should not be in young readers books, but if you have kids that read on an adult level, my 15 yr old has read at a collage level since 6th grade, my 9 yr old reads at a Jr. high level—then what? You look for books like Black Beauty and the other classics. Hey they were before 3 years ago and didn’t have sex and were considered adult at the time.
Sorry, need to burn this soapbox of mine. I just find the idea of all adult level books having sex ridiculous, and foolish and a statement made by those ill informed or maybe by those who need to expand their reading pool.
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited February 05, 2003).]
quote:Hildy9595 wrote: Okay, folks, I'd like your take on a comment I received from someone reviewing my book (not a professional editor, but a published, professional author). She noted that no one in the book has sex, and said this may make the story more appropriate for a YA audience.
To me this says that the author who was published figured out what it took to please an editor, though nothing to indicate what genre either author is attempting to write for. And in all honesty, the genre that is labeled on the spine will have some say in how much of what something gets. – for instance Joan Johnson writes westerns and gets placed in historical, even her modern day westerns are have "historical" on the spine.
quote:Srhowen wrote: Whew--I have to disagree with this one! 3 years ago? What does that mean, every book written before 3 years ago had graphic sex--and if they didn't, they were a Young Readers book? I beg to differ, in a big way.
I have a feeling that I didn’t explain this well enough, or at all when I posted it.
The idea of 3 years ago has to do with new books being released. Again, there is no comment as to what genre either author is targeting. Certainly, Mystery has few authors who place sex in their stories… or at least the ones that I have read, if there is sex which isn’t intragal to the mystery itself, I tend to not read that author again in that genre… sex isn’t why I read mysteries.
However, even Romances are changing and that is truly where the three years ago comes in. And romance to me is really the only genre where sex is a make or break topic. In most genres and many many books romance is part of the story to some extent, even if it is a love that never quite works and never gets farther than a kiss or a polite handshake.
Every genre has cycles… heck, everything has cycles. – however, we will stick with writing and selling to the market here. If you start looking at a specific genre (even before they were categorized as such on the shelves) you will see that there are certain things that tend to hit the market around the same time. Stories about war tends to hit when either war is imminent, or is happening. Stories about worlds where everything is perfect, which leads to problems of its own, tend to be published around the same time, and while war isn't the topic on everyones minds. (I don’t think this is a sign of authors taking ideas from each other as much as what the market seems interested in) The amount of sex in books tends to also go in waves – sometimes there is more gratuitous sex, and sometimes there is more gratuitous flirting – the market itself changes in how much of something they (the reader and editors) want.
quote:Srhowen wrote: The idea that a book without graphic sex is a young book is crazy. Tony Hillerman, Anne Perry, Sue Grafton, Kathleen and Michael Gear, --- just to name a few bestsellers of adult fiction, have been writing for better than ten years. Grafton is on Q (she writes mysteries and is doing them in alphabetical order) --book 17! No graphic sex in them. Those hints are there every so often, but no graphic sex. Same with the others.
Haven’t read Kathleen and Michael Gear, but the rest are labeled “Mystery”, and yes I agree that the amount of sex is minimal to non-existant. I was thinking about Grafton while lying in bed actually… I think in the first 4 books there were strong hints as it seemed that Grafton was trying to get Kinsey hooked up, but it didn’t happen, and after that even anything resembling romance seemed to start happening between novels, and was hinted at when appropriate for the story to give background as to how Kinsey knew someone. – the latest being Q is for Quarry (good book.)
I was trying to think of some authors in Fantasy – but I haven’t been reading that genre much in the last decade, so that isn’t helping, but from what I remember of Lackey’s books and Springers books, again sex wasn’t there. I also don’t recall seeing blatant sex in Jordon’s Wheel of Time books, though if it was there, I might have just skimmed over that and gone on. - and has been pointed out, my memory on graphic sex isnt' that great. Though admittedly, unless it is truly wonderfully written, I tend to get bored after two pages, and skip to where people are talking again, or it is definatly the next scene.
I would say that in Horror, sex often isn’t there… though Laurel K. Hamilton is placed in that area in a bookstore, and she defiantly has sex and lots of it and rather graphically.
With Sci-Fi – if it is hard Sci-Fi, then the audience tends to want to read more about the world itself, not how sex is done on that world or in space, etc. Certainly, when I read sci-fi it isn't to find out who is sleeping with who and in what position.
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The Gears write pre-historic fiction--they leave Auel in the dust folks. If you have not read any of their work, do so. They are wonderful writers. And their facts are in line with reality. One of them is an anthropologist, the other an archeologist.
Fantasy---Ann McCafree, MZ Bradly, Jorden---all good sellers, best sellers, without sex.
Being as most of here write SciFi or Fantasy, it is safe to say, I think, that the question was not about Romance. And even if it was, there are Christian Romances out there with just the hinted at sex scenes.
Mainstream Romance has a formula that almost demands sex--but other genres, I say only if it is needed to make the story go on, and then the hinted at is almost always better than the graphic.
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Anne McCafree -- I remember a story with the dragon riders in which one of the riders got excited along with her dragon counterpart, all vividly depicted, at least vivid enough from my mind. -- however, most of her stories seem to be rather void of sex, as it really wouldn't fit anyway. - also, at one point at least (late 70's, early 80's), she did write and market a romance. I don't remember much about it other than it had horses in it.
It has been a while since I have read MZB.. late teens in all honesty, so I might be getting her confused with someone else when images come to mind of stories. I don't remember blatant sex, but lots of heat.
And at least a few writers that I have met (so to speak) on these boards read horror in addition to sci-fi, but little if any fantasy. - which is why I figured that hitting all genres was a better idea.
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If your book is strong enough, you shouldn't have to include anything that doesn't further the story. Likewise, if your book stinks, no amount of sex, violence, sensationalism, whatever will save it. If there is a "rule" like that, it makes me shudder. What brave new world are we living in?
) Sometimes quite the opposite is true. I’ve read books where the description and circumstances surrounding a sex scene are just horrible, to the point it almost makes me turn to the “About the Author” page and see if the writer was thirteen, as their attitude towards sex just seemed really juvenile. My point being that the lack of sex can actually make a book more mature in my eyes. 
