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Since words are one of the most basic tools a writer uses, I thought it might be interesting to have a place to talk about them.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I have a dictionary that says it comes from Middle French "descheveler" which comes from Latin "des" (away) + "chevel" (hair), and "chevel" is supposed to come from Latin "capillus" (no definition given).
Well, I don't have an OED handy, so I can't check it to be sure, but I really have my doubts about the above.
My theory:
There is a French term "en deshabille" (in undress) that refers to how you look when you're at ease at home--think of the woman in her bathrobe, hair in curlers, sloppy slippers on feet--now if that doesn't fit "disheveled" to your mind, what does?
So, my theory is that "en deshabille" was corrupted into "disheveled" by those English speakers who don't bother to try to pronounce things properly.
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But then 'en deshabille' probably came in turn from descheveler or the Latin.
What confuses me is that my dictionary gives the root of paternal as being the Latin 'pater' but in fact the ancient Greeks, hundreds of years earlier used 'pater' as father and 'mater' as mother.
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited January 23, 2004).]
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At the height of the roman empire when latin was spoken it was in vogue to speak greek. Therefore, they probably stole the word. Most dictionaries only go back as far as latin.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Yes, I should really have thought of that seeing as 's'habiller' is 'to dress oneself'. That'll teach me to engage brain before typing next time.
Not so sure on the dictionary thing though. I mean if they can go back to Ancient Greek for medical terms then it's only right that they should do it for other words too. But then, I suppose, I could argue that they trace everything back to its Phoenician routes and that would just be silly. Maybe it makes sense to stop somewhere. It's just the fact that the words are exactly the same that gets me.
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited January 23, 2004).]
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Well, one of the etymologies on dictionary.com says it comes from Middle English "discheveled" from Old French "descheveler" (and then back to Latin.)
The c in the Middle English version makes this route more likely than the "en deshabille" route.
Of course, that's assuming the American Heritage Dictionary is correct about the Middle English step, which does not appear in the Webster's etymology.
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The city of Cincinnati has a large painting/statue, I don't remember which, of Cincinnatus, the Roman general or whatever (Pardon the vagueness. It's been a while since I thought about this and I originally got it off a Cincinnati postcard. ). Cincinnatus is an imposing figure nonetheless. For all the hype about him and his exploits, though, his name (according to the postcard) means "one whose hair is curled, especially in an artificial way." Don't you love it?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:To "decimate," for instance, originally meant to kill every tenth person as a collective punishment (hence the old joke about how "You can tell the ancient Romans were tough -- in their language, 'to kill every tenth person as a collective punishment' was one word"). http://volokh.com/2002_11_17_volokh_archive.html#85689368
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When I was learning Italian, my fellow-students and I came across an English word that was defined in Italian as "attraversare la strada contra la luce rossa."
Literally translated, that means "to cross the street against the red light."
Jaywalking.
Anyone know of other words that (either to or from English) do not have a simple translation?
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Now I don't think these are all the same language, but they are supposedly legit. I don't remember where I got them, but I did write them down for future reference. (Boy, this thread has really brought out the vagueness in me. )
amorgar -- to stupefy fish with coco
caniculario -- a beadle who drags dogs out of church
anarangear -- (my favorite) -- to kill a hen by throwing oranges at it
otashi-bumi -- a letter purposely dropped on the road
tsujigira -- a trying out of one's sword on a chance bypasser
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Kolona, I'd be very surprised if all of those words were from the same language.
Caniculario looks like it might be Latin-derived (canis = dog), and my dictionary says that Sirius, the dog star is also known as Canicula. (It says Sirius is from the Greek "seirios" for hot, scorching--referring, I'd guess, to the "dog days" or hot days of summer.)
Otashi-burni and tsujigira look like they are Japanese. No ideas about the other two.
amorgar - obviously an amalgamation of the words amour (contracted to amor) and gar. Amour - from middle English via old French, meaning a love affair. Gar - the name of a type of fish. Therefore amorgar - a love affair with a garfish.
Anarangear - this just has to be of Scottish origin. The Isle of Arran is a Scottish island and the name has obviously been contracted here to aran. Hence an-aran-gear. Stuff belonging to a person from the Isle of Arran.
These definitions are most definitely correct because I have been in contact with the world renowned etymologist Lord A.Wobbish and he told me so.
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The first three are Spanish. Although the latter one means, according to an on-line dictionary, simply 'to throw oranges [at someone]'. Doesn't say anything about hens... Posts: 626 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I say "ninety-eight" unless I'm french, when I say "quatre-vingt-dix-huit" - four-twenty-ten-eight" - more math than grammar.
When I started studying Russian, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my knowledge of French was very helpful (until I got further along with verbs and hadn't studied German which has a case system which would have helped apparently). French was "de rigeur" at the Russian court (Peter the Great did this I believe?) - a great respect for French - I have loved discovering such relationships.
Humuhumunukunukuapua'a is the Hawaiian word for "trigger fish" and is the state fish. It is a really small fish of multiple colors - about 6-8 inches. I always found it funny!
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My favorite Hawaiian phrase is an old Hawaiian greeting, Pehea kou piko? -- which I read means "How is your navel?" (I've always wanted to say it to an old Hawaiian. ) It had to do with concerns about digestion, which they considered quite important.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited January 27, 2004).]
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Haha! Yes, we talk about the babies' pikos all the time, though my husband started calling them "giggle buttons" - no matter what you call them, my twins know where they are.
We like "kaukau pipi pupu" - eat beef hors d'oeuvres - pidgin Hawaiian mix, but induces many giggles.
"The Hawaiian language is considered by linguists to be one of the most fluid and melodious languages of the world. Only 12 letters appear in the Hawaiian alphabet. There are 5 vowels - A, E, I, O, U. And, there are only 7 consonants: H, K, L, M, N, P and W. Every word in the Hawaiian language ends with a vowel and a vowel always appears between consonants; some words contain no consonants at all." (like the place name Aiea)
From "Say It As It Is! Learn To Speak Hawaiian" written by MeneHune, who was the same person as the editor, Valjeanne Budar, my aunt!
I used to joke that Welsh took most of the consonants, and Hawaiian took most of the vowels.
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I seem to remember from the Michener book about Hawaii that the written language was created by white missionaries, and that the spoken language actually contained other sounds. So after the written language was created the Hawaiians changed the way they spoke to coincide with it. I dont know if this is true or not, but thats what I remember.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I always research places I visit or move to ahead of time, and I read up on the Hawaiian language before going to the islands. While driving with my husband one day, I read the lettering on a truck we passed near home; phonetically it read "Mawkay Meenay Milk." I looked at my husband and as I asked him, quizzically, "What kind of company is Maykay Meenay Milk?" I laughed. I had been trying to read it in Hawaiian. What it actually said was "Make Mine Milk."
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited January 27, 2004).]
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Oh, yes. Afterward, I learned that 'make' in Hawaiian means 'to die.' Maybe we should add 'make mine milk' to our list above with the definition 'to die from milk.' Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
The missionaries did a lot of things that don't necessarily fit this thread! Hawaiians used petroglyphs (a form of picture writing) as their first form of written communications, which can still be seen in certain places on the islands. For example, a meeting place on the Big Island is covered in them. The written version is phonetic, based on the language itself.
"Sounds of consonants in Hawaiian closely resemble the sounds of English consonants, with one exception, the W. The letter W is pronounced in English when it follows O or U and as a soft V when it follows E or I. When W follows A or is the first letter in the word - the choice is yours to make."
"Vowels in Hawaiian are pure vowels. In Hawaiian there are 2 sounds in each vowel, one of long, and the other of short duration. An example of this is the difference between the words 'pull' and 'pool' - there are also glottal stops and many double vowel sounds, as you can imagine with a language so rich in vowels.
I believe Hawaiian became the first "aboriginal" language one could get a doctorate in, but I forget where I learned that.
Kolona - I am still laughing over your milk reference! We teased friends over prounouncing "Pipeline" peepayleenay, and the Likelike Hwy as "like-like" as opposed to the proper way - "leekayleekay" - haha! I remember, after living in France, coming home, and was convinced that "book" was not the english word for "livre" because it sounded so wrong...
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited January 27, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited January 27, 2004).]
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My limo driver from the airport tried to trip me up by asking me to read the Likelike Highway sign -- but he couldn't fool me, since I had done my homework. When I pronounced it right, he said, "You've been here before, right?" and couldn't believe I hadn't been. (That felt so good. )
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:So, my theory is that "en deshabille" was corrupted into "disheveled" by those English speakers who don't bother to try to pronounce things properly.
The OED also says that it's from dis + cheval. But it says something else interesting:
quote:Without coif or head-dress; hence, with the hair unconfined and flung about in disorder. Sometimes app. in wider sense: Undressed, in dishabille.
So it probably started out simply meaning "having messy hair" and then took on a broader meaning, absorbing the meaning of "deshabille." A similar meaning shift happened with the English word "unkempt" (which is a variation of the word "uncombed").
quote:What confuses me is that my dictionary gives the root of paternal as being the Latin 'pater' but in fact the ancient Greeks, hundreds of years earlier used 'pater' as father and 'mater' as mother.
It's a common Indo-European word, not a borrowing from Greek to Latin. The English word "father" goes back to the same Indo-European root.
[This message has been edited by Jon Boy (edited January 28, 2004).]
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The sound 'pah' or 'ba' occurs in a word for father in almost every human language, just as the sound 'mah' is almost universal (notable exeptions being languages that do not employ vocalizations at all).
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Quick question. Does anybody know any proper curses and insults in Spanish? Don't know anything about the language myself but what I'm after is pretty tame. Something like their equivalent to fool, imbecile or damn etc. Obviously I can look these words up on an online ditionary (and I have) but are the direct translations what a Spanish person would actually say in the same situations as we would?
Posts: 156 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
That's interesting, Survivor. I wasn't aware of the pattern occuring outside of Indo-European languages. Can you give a few examples?
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Go anywhere humans live--literally anywhere--and try out "mah-mah...pah-pah" for a bit. After people get over their initial laughter, they'll figure out that you're making baby talk for mother and father. That's probably where the common root of all those terms come from, early baby talk.
Chinese, Korean, and Japanese all furnish good examples (though more often the sounds occur as finals rather than initials). But really, every spoken language (excepting dead languages that are not learned by children) furnishes examples.
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Spanish is a bit tricky because of regional variations, and the severity of what a given word means varies depending on the country. Among the milder things might be "chuta" an equivalent of darn or dang. Idiot and imbecile are exactly the same as in English (though pronounced differently). Tonto translates to fool, and bobo clown.
Swear words are just tricky because the type and frequency of their usage differs in Spanish at least as much as it does in English. The only way I got any good handle on them was taking a Contemporary Latin American Literature class when I was in college (conducted completely in spanish). I had learn a ton of swear words because of the "wonderful" (not) tendency for contemporary authors to feel that if folks don't swear all over the place, then the novel doesn't reflect reality. If you hadn't guesed, this is one of my pet beefs with a lot of "contemporary" literature.
If you need more ideas, let me know the situation and regional variance you are looking for and I'll try to help.
Dave
[This message has been edited by Ergoface (edited January 31, 2004).]
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I might take you up on that offer, Ergoface. I've got a young half-Spanish character who has recently moved from Spain to England. Although he speaks English well enough he's not quite got the hang of cursing and insulting people in the language yet so uses the odd Spanish insult here and there. The only problem is, I don't know very much Spanish. Words like 'chuta' and 'tonto' would be quite useful.
(I know picking Spanish with no knowledge of the language was a bad idea but his character suited the nationality and there's nothing like a good piece of stereotyping every now and then)
[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited February 02, 2004).]
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There, there, Survivor. I don't think you should take it personally.
Jon Boy, Survivor told you Chinese, Japanese and Korean have examples, but you only thought it was cool when PE Sharp gave you an actual example (Thai).
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Oh, right, just give the whole game away! I was hoping to find out how long it took Jon to figure it out on his own...or at least to admit it...
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Good thing you mention LTUE, Kathleen. It had completely slipped my mind. Now I've put it in my calendar so I won't forget again.
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Well, I was asking for actual examples of words for "father" and "mother" in other (non-Indo-European) languages. That's why I thought it was cool when PE Sharp gave a couple examples.
I figured that Survivor was growling because of that, but I still don't quite understand why. Did I really upset you for not saying, "Cool, thanks Survivor"?
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I went to the LTUE link and they really don't have much more info there. No concrete schedule listed anyway. I sent an inquiry e-mail. Any other suggestions? I may be interested in a few things.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I've gone to a few classes at LTUE over the years, but I've never been really impressed. I've heard from a lot of writers that it's this great thing, but all I got was a class where the panelists argued about what a villain should be like and a class that ended up as a feminazi/racial predjudice (pro, by the way) soapbox. Are there classes or speakers you would recommend?
Posts: 814 | Registered: Nov 2000
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I can tell you what I'm supposed to be doing, and when I'm supposed to be doing it--according to the current version of the schedule, if you like.
One of the things I'm doing I call "Lucky 13 workshops" where people bring copies of 13 lines of either a hook, a plot summary, or a description, and the others critique it--we can do five people in an hour.
As you may have guessed, they're based on what people do in the Fragments and Feedback area here (although it has been brought to my attention that lately the 13 lines are getting more critiques and not so many volunteers to read the whole thing, the way they are supposed to).
Anyway, I'm doing one of those on Friday and one on Saturday, and people need to come in on Thursday to sign up for them.
quote:Yeah, I actually live in walking distance of the BYU campus, so I'll likely be there.:more sighing:
Excellent, then we have more in common than I had thought. Are you a fellow student or simply live within walking distance because of some other reason? Posts: 295 | Registered: May 2003
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Survivor, were you the one who got into the yelling match with the feminazi about nature vs. nurture last year at LTUE? I was just looking at your website, and your face seemed familiar . . .
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). Cincinnatus is an imposing figure nonetheless. For all the hype about him and his exploits, though, his name (according to the postcard) means "one whose hair is curled, especially in an artificial way." Don't you love it?
Or Korean, for that matter?
