posted
On of the trickly parts of first person I've noticed can be establishing gender. Sometimes it just doesn't work to insert a name in the first paragraph, which might not even be gender distinctive in fantasy setting, and then you need some sort of distinctive tag. Certain physical characteristics can to work, but only if it's applicable to the story flow, and then somehow I always feel like I'm having to force the issue.
I also don't think you have that much time to make the gender establishment. First paragraph ideally, and no later than the first two or three. I once started reading a novel where no gender reference was given until the end of the first chapter, and it irritated me so much, I couldn't continue the novel because my brain had assigned the gender wrong and annoyed at having to switch.
For example, would the reference "Three of the other guys on the [dorm] floor" in the second paragraph be effective enough and soon enough, if the first paragraph was structured in a realtively gender neutral manner, to establish the character was male?
posted
Hmm. Interesting point. I'm writing a first-person story right now, and hadn't given any thought at all to this issue. (Right now, the story doesn't mention the narrator's clearly male name until the sixth paragraph, although it mentions a male pseudonym in the third.)
When I'm reading a first-person story and I know the author's gender, I always presume the character is of that gender until I'm given a reason to think otherwise. Do other people think that way, or is it just me?
posted
"guys" in central and northern US means everyone--you all, y'all etc.
You have to strike a balance -- a name on a door, maybe he/she gets a speeding ticket and the police can say sir/maam etc.--
I had the same trouble, even though I used very masculine "support" some people thought female character--I solved it by using a sentence where the main character thinks of something his father said--
quote:I once started reading a novel where no gender reference was given until the end of the first chapter, and it irritated me so much, I couldn't continue the novel because my brain had assigned the gender wrong and annoyed at having to switch.
Do you think that was deliberate on the author's part? In other words, did the author take advantage of gender stereotypes in order to give you the wrong impression? If your impression hadn't been wrong, do you still think there would have been a problem with the lack of gender reference early on? Posts: 1517 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
That's a really good point, not only from a writer's perspective but from a reader's as well. I've always assumed that if the author is a male, his first-person narrator is a male, and vice versa. I suppose that's a bit ignorant on my part, eh? I'll need to pay closer attention when reading first-person stories to see if there's anything in the opening that indicates gender.
Though I understand Shawn's point that the word "guys" can be used in a gender-inclusive way, I'm not so sure that it's always used that way--nor am I sure that people interpret it that way. For example, if I tell my wife, "I'm going out with the guys," she correctly assumes that I'm talking about my male friends. I think she'd be surpised if she were to find out that by "guys" I really meant a group of young single women. And I don't think she'd be convinced if I were to claim that since the word "guys" can be used in a gender-inclusive way, I hadn't been deceitful.
Also, I don't know of any females who refer to their girl friends as "guys." Just as I say "guys" to refer to my male friends, my wife says, "I'm going out with the girls," to refer to her female friends. If she were to say, "I'm going out with the guys," I'd have a lot of questions for her!
That being said, I think if you were to write, "The other guys in the dorm," readers would assume the narrator is a male.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited March 08, 2004).]
posted
I think what Shawn was after is using guys like this: "Ok, bye you guys!" or "See you guys later!" This being said to a group of people of both genders, all-inclusive. It comes from a "Valley girl" reference, most likely started in the early '80's. Kind of like saying, "I'm going to go buy a Coke." Where I grew up this could mean a soft drink of any kind, not necessarily just the "real thing". Same thing with Xerox, Kleenex and other brandings used as generic expressions.
I do agree that "guys in the dorm" would make me think Male gender. Especially if it was used like this: "All the guys in my dorm think she's beautiful and I agree." If you have the opposing gender represented then there isn't any way to get it confused.
posted
I'd infer different things from 'the other guys' and 'the guys' -- from the first most likely a male POV character, from the second either male or female, depending on context; although, the first could conceivably be female as well, depending also on a loose context. Likewise, neither 'the other guys in my dorm' nor 'the guys in my dorm' would necessarily signal a male POV character to me, in view of today's ridiculous coed dorms and figuring in the more relaxed contextual possibilities. I'd need more to go on.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Oh heck, I don't think there's any way to establish a gender because if the reader's trying hard enough they'll ignore it or make up very unlikely scenarios so that it's not 100% sure...I once wrote a first person piece in which I almost immediately mention that the narrator lives in a dorm and has a roommate named Anna. Still, in some feedback I received, people were unsure of the gender and claimed it bugged them. They said that dorms and even dorm rooms can be coed. Yeah, I suppose *sometimes* but I'm afraid we do still live in a country in which that's rare...grumble grumble.....
Soo very very good luck and shoving this information down someone's throat in any way except to say that "I am a twenty-year-old female name Jamie." After all, Jamie could be a guy....
Personally, it doesn't bug me that much not to know the gender right away. Like some others have mentioned, I assume it's the gender of the author.
This is probably the least important reason that I always prefer that first person narratives have a clear narrative frame. But a proper narrative frame should almost always eliminate any real chance of confusion over the identity of the fictional first person author.
posted
I was just thinking...as time goes on I become more and more uncomfortable in a first person narrative. Oh, I wno't not read something because it's written in first person, but it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Somehow it manages to distance me from a character, which hardly makes sense. But it's more like I'm talking to a friend who uses "I" to tell me about their day....it's not me it's them. In a well written third person narration I somehow feel more involved with the main characters. Also, it doesn't sound as much like a story that is being told...it sounds much more like something that is happening.
posted
Well, I probably shouldn't say this, but part of me suspects that anyone who insists that the gender of a first-person narrator is unclear, despite clues which the author has given which tend to indicate one gender, because it's possible the person still could be of the opposite gender, is really just trying to prove his or her lack of prejudice.
My girlfriend Jenny and I were out on a date when we heard the news. (The gender of the narrator is unclear, because it could be a lesbian.)
When I was a little boy, my dad used to take me fishing in the creek behind our house. (The gender of the narrator is uncertain, because it could be someone who had a sex-change operation.)
Unless the author is deliberately trying to confuse the issue, when the author puts in something that hints at the gender of the narrator, it's meant to be taken that way. So take the hint! There's no point in looking for ways in which the narrator might be the opposite gender from what's being hinted. (And if the author is trying to do one of those tired old gender-sterotype-busting stories with the twist ending where you find out the narrator was of the opposite gender, you'll spoil the "surprise" if you analyze things too much.)
posted
Sneaking in to add an off-topic, but heartfelt, "Congratulations! Job well done!" to EJS on the sale of his story. Posts: 338 | Registered: Aug 2002
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To bring this back on-topic, that story happens to be in first person. I just went and checked the point at which I made it absolutely clear that my narrator was male. It's a point 1039 words into a 3135-word story. That's a hair under a third of the way through the story.
Prior to that, there are some hints: he answers a call from an male friend by saying, "Hey, buddy. Long time no see."; his childhood best friend was male. And, just overall, the dialogue between the narrator and the male friend does not have any of the overtones that you might expect in a dialogue between a male and a female.
I think a reader would have been surprised if the character had turned out to be female, which means the gender of the narrator was sufficiently established by the feel of the story, even if not explicitly made clear until a third of the way through. (And even then, since there is no real impediment [other than outdated sterotypes] to the name "Kenneth" belonging to a woman, I guess it's not clearly established until about four hundred words later, when the narrator sees a recording of a younger version of himself and refers to it as "he.")
posted
Hmm… yes, apparently a great many people do automatically assume that the gender of the writer is the gender of the I character. I guess I do it too, if nobody tells me otherwise, but since the same story where the "other guys" reference came in, I have "ex-girlfriend" about three paragraphs down from that, I thought that really should have cleared up the worst of the gender problem. However, the writers group I took it to was, for the most part, confused. But the confusion came from the "well, you can never be too sure about these things anymore" sort of comments, which I found fairly irksome. What I found extremely irksome was the comment, "You’re going to use a pseudonym with this story, right? ‘Cause you can’t put your real name on that." (My name being clearly female, fitting enough since I am a girl.) Why can you not write a first person narrative in the opposite gender, assuming you can properly reproduce the appropriate "voice"?
I feel matters were not helped that the writing group works by the author reading aloud the work as the critiquers first encounter with it. My other frustrations with this process aside (a discussion for another thread), perhaps they couldn’t get over girl-type person reading the words to catch the gender associations displayed in the story.
quote: Do you think that was deliberate on the author's part? In other words, did the author take advantage of gender stereotypes in order to give you the wrong impression? If your impression hadn't been wrong, do you still think there would have been a problem with the lack of gender reference early on?
I don’t think it was deliberate (I was reading The Eyre Affair). Male author writing a female I, which I’m fine with, but the stereotype he was building the character out of seemed to fit better with a male character. I’m going to have to dig that out again and see if I just missed it, or if there really were things beyond the author’s gender that that made me think the character was male. And if my impression hadn’t been wrong (or had been corrected fairly quickly), I don’t think I would have had a problem. But that isn’t to say that establishing gender wouldn’t have been important. I would have just happened to have pricked the right one by accident.
And, FWIW, my experience in living in various parts of the middle of this country tells me that "you guys" or where "guys" is used where the "you" is implied, is gender inclusive, while "guys" is male.
posted
Well GZ, if this is the same group that you grumbled about in the other thread, than I'd say keep it the way it is. Now you're not just the author (with a perfectly fine female name that will look lovely on the cover) but a reader telling the story with a very feminine voice.
I subscribe to the library for the blind and get books on tape. Sometimes those books are in first person, and sometimes the reader is not the correct gender. By no fault of the author, I am tempted to stop listening to many of those books. It's just wrong. Actualy, even when a book is told in third person there are some that should be told by men and some that should be told by women (usually relating to the gender of the main character...BTW romance novels should NEVER be read by a woman...yikes that's misery....I'm afraid men's voices are much sexier for the target audience. )
I think it's great that you're writing a first person from a man's point of view...I'm just working up to doing that in third person! Gender crossover is one of the more difficult skills for an author to master, many pros don't do it well.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited March 08, 2004).]
quote:BTW romance novels should NEVER be read by a woman...yikes that's misery....I'm afraid men's voices are much sexier for the target audience.
I tend to like men’s voice on books on tape better myself, some of which is also because they carry better over the road noise (cars being my venue for the books on tape).
The ladies reading the romance novels don’t eek me out, but they crack me up when they try to do the guy’s voice. It always turns out all squeaky and like they have a cold. A bad Ranma ½ to those familiar with anime.
quote:I think it's great that you're writing a first person from a man's point of view...I'm just working up to doing that in third person! Gender crossover is one of the more difficult skills for an author to master, many pros don't do it well.
For some reason, it actually feels easier to write a guys POV sometimes. Like they are more interesting. Weird. Or maybe not so weird seeing as I find the males of the species inherently interesting because they are the males. Sometimes I’m afraid I think it might be because I don’t know how wrong I am, though I’m pretty sure the guys at college saturated me well enough I have more than half-a-clue about that I’m doing. <laugh>
posted
LOL--my latest novels are first person male--most people who read my work assume I am male.
You have to use gender clues, and in first person consider that people are going to look at author name and assume the "I" character is the same gender as the author.
You can drop gender clues--big ones, without a name--even a name can be confusing--
Shawn--male
Nope
If I say--He had a build like the hunk on the cover of the latest romance--gender clue Female.
If I say--He had a build like the guy on the cover of my wife's latest romance--gender clue Male.
SO you can work it in without the name in little ways.
The genders see things differently, and in first person to do it efficiently you have to know those differences.
Shawn
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited March 08, 2004).]
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