posted
Sorry for the macabre subject. I almost titled it, "I'm going to kill someone". That someone of course is one of my characters. I'm at the beginning of my current project and one of the characters is going to die. I just haven't decided which one yet. It will be someone that the reader has come to know, but might not necessarily like. I do know that it won't be the protagonist; he has to "save the day".
I remember when I first read the trilogy by that guy with 4 names who used his first 3 initials and his last name and when in the second book Boromir died. Gandalf's death didn't affect me as much. I also remember how I felt when I read The Dragonlance Trilogy and one of the characters died in the second book.
What I want to know is, how does it affect you as a reader and an author when a character you care about has died?
posted
As a reader, I've been very upset when a character I like dies. Mostly, if it was appropriate to the story, I don't get mad at the author - I only get mad if it feels like deliberate cruelty.
Anyone who's read my first 13 knows that my current project opens with the news of a death. In this case, it isn't a major character, and we never get to know him directly. However, he was the friend of a major character, and that makes it rather painful.
(On a personal level, both my grandmother and my great-grandmother died recently, so I'm generally a little sensitive about the subject. What's going on in my life affects what I read and write.)
posted
People die. It's a basic fact of life, like fire burns and water is wet. It's immutable. So yeah, sometimes people die in books, too. I never like it when a character I like dies, and I mull about it for days, and I'm angry at the author for creating such a great character and then killing them off, and I wish I'd written the story because I would've done it different and....
And on and on. This, to me, is part of what makes a story good. If you can't stop thinking about the story after you've finished reading it, the writer did a good job. If I'd written it, I would've done it different, and the story would probably not have been as good.
People die in my stories too. Almost invariably. It sucks, because I get to like them as I write them. And then I kill them. It's sadistic, really. But sometimes, it just needs to be done.
Death is an important event in life, one of the defining events of life.
Stories are about people, so people in stories sometimes die. Even when that death doesn't happen in the story itself, it still affects the characters.
As both a reader and a writer, I accept the eventual death of all characters (that are not explicitly immortal) as a given. How they die matters a lot, whether they die in the course of the events described in the story is nearly irrelevant, except insofar as it affects how they die. And by "how", I mean the characters' reasons for confronting death and their responses to it, not the proximate causes of death.
As a reader, the event of a character's death doesn't affect me per se, I was already aware that the character was going to die. As a writer it is more difficult, because that character's death must affect all my other characters to some degree, and the story events after that character's death have to take that event into account.
One interesting thing I've discovered as a reader is that the really important effects don't depend on the character dying at all, only on the character confronting death, facing a situation that the character does not expect to survive.
posted
Of course, as a reader I'm upset when a character I like dies. If a character can die without it affecting (effecting? I can never keep that crap straight.) the reader, then it either wasn't well written or just not the right story for that reader.
As a writer, I don't think I've ever felt bad about killing a character. I've killed a lot of characters before, and they were sometimes characters I really cared about and liked, but it's never bothered me. I get more of a sadistic pleasure out of it really, which probably says something about my personality that I don't want to know. Writer's sadism: it's what keeps it interesting.
posted
You mentioned the death of Sturm in the Dragonlance novels. I think that is a great example of what you are asking. Sturm was a great character, and his death was very sad in the book.
I think it is the circumstances by which the character dies that affect the reader, as well as the death itself. Sturm put his life in danger to protect other people. He died heroically, but his death was also somewhat unnecessary. That is what made it so memorable to the reader. It has been over 15 years since I read that story and it is one of my most memorable moments in fantasy literature.
It is not only how the reader feels about the character who dies, but also how important he is to the other main characters. How far reaching is this death going to be? Is everyone in the story going to feel the loss? I think that is what was portrayed in the Dragonlance series.
Now the Dragonlance series is by no means the greatest example of terrific writing, but some of my most fond memories are regarding that series. I think it is because of the memorable characters in that story. When one of them dies, or gets killed you felt it as a reader. The greater the attachment--the deeper the emotion of loss. I hated to see him die, but because of his sacrifice, he turned the tide of the war and strengthened the characters tied to him.
I think that if done right, the death of a main character can be a great impact to your story, and connect your readers with the remaining characters all the more.
posted
I remember Sturm, and it was interesting how he stayed an important character after he died. Usually it takes a while for me to digest what I read. The day after I read his death I was working, and then it hit me that he was dead. I just stopped and looked around. To mention another death, In JRR's book when the W(L)ich king died that was memorable. because Gandalf himself couldn't beat him but a Hobbit and Human did just fine. As to killing Characters as a writer, I find it hard but neccasary. But it should go with the story. A friend of mine kills a character in every story. His approach bugs me and we get into arguments about it. Also It's hard to keep characters alive that you want dead. I have this one guy in my story right now that I just hate. There is a serial killer in the story too and it would be so easy to kill him off but I always stop myself for some reason. He may have some bearing on the story that I can't (or Won't) see. In one of my other stories I destroyed and entire kingdom, just killed everybody. It was odd because before then the story was about this kingdom. I think writing should be about life and the leading cause of death is life.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I have to say the most memorable death of a character was in Jennifer Robinsons Shapechanger series. Each book in the series was done by the child(ren) of the previous book's main character. I remember it was in the second (or was it third) book, she bruttaly killed off the main character from the first book. That was one of the strongest deaths that I remember reading. She did go on an kill off other prior book main characters, but that first one made an impression.
posted
Is this possible? Have we had this long a conversation about authors killing off main characters and George R. R. Martin has not been brought up once?
Now THAT made me mad. When the first one died I thought it was rather gutsy, truth be told, but then more began to die. And more. And more. Soon there was nobody left alive that I liked (except John Snow and his one sister....A...something...can't remember). But their points of view came up so seldom that I stopped reading.
So that was an extreme example. I wouldn't do that. I didn't care much that Sturm died in the Dargonlance seires, although to be perfectly fair and honest, I did not find the series to be fully engaging. There were parts I liked, parts I didn't like (isn't that the series with the seeing eye tiger...I want one of those!), but overall I filed it as one more fantasy series.
Be careful when you kill characters. It's ok, realistic, and prfoundly emotional if someone we have come to care about dies in a book. Just don't kill off your main protagonist, if we have no one to empathize with then why are we reading?
And another thing I've found...you never know who the reader will actually care about when they die. I created a one chapter throw away character for my novel. He appears for the first time in chapter six, has a few things to say from his point of view that are important and can't be learned any other way, then dies at the end. My reader was so upset. He wanted to know if I could bring him back to life or maybe just write a nother story about him. I was going...WHAT? this guy is a hired hit man! <sigh>
As an 'action' style story, my current WIP has quite a high body count. I'm about 80k words into this draft of it, and I've lost count.
Of the 'developed' characters (i.e., those that the reader has had a change to get to know) I've killed off 2 "good guys" (one of which was a frequent POV character) and 3 "evil henchmen".
There's at least one more of each to go before the end. Probably more because there are two battle scenes left to write which I haven't decided on the exact outcomes of yet.
Do you think this is too much? Or should I just stick it out?
posted
I think one of Martin's problems (IMHO) was that he not only killed off all the good guys, but he killed them off early, leaving us to have to lurk in the POV of reprehensible characters. 80K words sounds like it could be near the end as long as there is at least one good guy to pull us through, you should be fine. I think it might not be how many likeable people you kill off, but how many people that I like remain alive in the story?
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I say just go with it. If you're reading a book where the author's killing off his main characters left, right and centre it makes you afraid for the characters that you like. You think that nobody's safe and that if he's killed off Tom, Rob and Bob, there's no reason why he won't kill off Jim too. And if you can achieve that kind of reaction from your readers then you know you're doing something right.
Has anybody read Barclay's Chronicle's of the Raven? That's one series that always jumps into my mind when I think of this topic.
posted
You've posed a question I've struggled with lately in my own writing: How does it affect me as - a reader and an author - when a character I care about has died...
Since I'm knee-deep in writing such a thing, I want to throw out to this forum how I feel as an author writing such a thing. And what I feel is...well, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't much matter. What *does* matter is how my reader (someday readers?) feel...and that, of course, depends on how I, as a writer, inject this event into my story.
My main goal at the moment is to "hook" the death into the story of my main character.
American novelist Henry James once wrote/pondered: "What is character but the determination of incident? And what is incident but the illumination of character?"
I like this. So I guess my answer & opinion to your posted question is - if you're going to have a death in your novel, it ought to serve as an illustration of your main characters; who they really are...what they really feel, etc.
How they react to (or even maybe how they in some way brought about) this event should in some way reveal the truth of their character.
James also wrote that a writer illuminates his/her main characters by every character in that person's circle, and by every interaction between them.
Every incident in a novel should be connected. Every happening shapes the main character(s) - for good or bad.
Hook the death of this character into the protagonist's story - *reveal* more of the protagonist's character through this death - and you'll be giving your readers an illuminating read, no matter *how* they feel about the death of said character.
posted
Another thought hit me while reading the other posts. Star Wars # 1. They killed off both the hero and the villain. Now Qui Gon(sp?) had to go, even though he was the first Jedi I have personally liked, he bogged down the main (or soon to be supposed to be) chars. But Darth Maul was interesting and I wanted to learn more about him. (not just because I'm a stick fighter and identify with his moves.) He only had like one line and it was cliche, and I admit I wanted more. but they just went and cut him in half. to be replaced with an ordinary custum for christopher lee bad guy. (notice I don't call him a villain.)
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
The original person cast as darth maul was having problems with the fight scene...so they took the expert and gave him the role. So the actor who played darth maul wasn't an actor at all. From what I understand the original had more speaking parts, but they got cut so they could have the incredible fight scene.
I agree the replacement was a bit pathetic, but I guess they needed an actor for the second movie.
quote:What is character but the determination of incident? And what is incident but the illumination of character?
Hmmm... incident, in the case of one of the deaths in my story at least, is something more than this. It is a way of shaping the protagonist, moving him toward an eventual outcome of the story that he wouldn't otherwise have been capable of achieving. I think the same should be true of important events in all good stories.
OK; so that's one death that is crucial to the story. They story cannot really be told without it. Another could be left out, but you are right -- showing how my character deals with having to watch a friend die is quite illuminating. And if it isn't illuminating enough to justify the scene, then I'll make it more so in the next revision!
Yeah, I should probably not spend so much time worrying about it. I am telling my story right.
quote:80K words sounds like it could be near the end as long as there is at least one good guy to pull us through, you should be fine. I think it might not be how many likeable people you kill off, but how many people that I like remain alive in the story?
80k is somewhere between a third and half way through. My original aim point was a trilogy of books between 90k and 110k, but everything's falling a bit short of that, so it'll probably end up as a bigger single volume Still, I'm somewhat up on the first draft which made 90k for the entire thing!
There's plenty of interesting people left alive at this point. Some of them'll even survive till the end...
quote:You think that nobody's safe and that if he's killed off Tom, Rob and Bob, there's no reason why he won't kill off Jim too. And if you can achieve that kind of reaction from your readers then you know you're doing something right.
posted
Oh well, just as long as there's SOMEONE I can still relate to in your story, I'll keep reading.
I've noticed there's a line past which instead of being afraid for the lives of the characters I care about, I'm annoyed at the melodrama the author seems to be placing into the book. I don't know where that point is, though.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited March 19, 2004).]
posted
It probably happens just about when you suspect the author is killing the characters to get to you.
quote:You think that nobody's safe and that if he's killed off Tom, Rob and Bob, there's no reason why he won't kill off Jim too. And if you can achieve that kind of reaction from your readers then you know you're doing something right.
If you convince the reader that you aren't deciding whether the characters survive or not...if you convince the reader that it is really up to the characters whether they live or die, then your reader will believe that any character can die. You don't have to kill anyone, just never lift an authorial hand to save anyone that gets themselves into a bad situation...let the character handle it. And the same goes double for killing characters off. Don't use your god like power to just smite some character dead. That just makes it obvious that you are the one deciding whether they live or die.
Let your characters live or die on their own merits. Smite them dead or save them Deus Ex, and you've got cheap melodrama.
posted
That's a good point, Survivor, and let me just add this to those who think that killing characters off is a good way to get the reader to fear for your remaining characters....
There are books in which it is obvious from the start that no character is in danger. These do not make me feel anything.
Therea re books in which the author seems to be trying to hard to get me to understand that his characters will die (ie kills them all off). This causes me to feel frustration and disdain for the author, but rarely anything for the remaining heroes.
Then there are books that, as Survivor poitned out, have the characters live or die on their own merits. Well, now, that will get me to feel something. The trouble with this is what do you mean by "their own merits?" I mean that a seasoned adventureer will probably not fall victim to a booby trap...that's kind of a silly way t9 go and he's probably too smart for that. I mean that an assassination better be a realistic and necessary aspect of your story. But also I mean that if a swordsman falls in battle, no matter how good he is, I can understand and feel the effect.
Death has to have purpose. Kill as many people as you want and as long as each and every one made sense at the time, no matter how sad, I'll stick with you.
posted
Just thought I'd mention that I agree with both above posts and say that my example wasn't supposed to imply that killing characters is in any way a subsitute for realism and suspense. Suspense is a key tool in any type of fiction and if done correctly, killing off main characters can add to the suspense considerably. It's all very well believing a character might die but if you believe a character might die and know that other main characters have died already, it tweaks the suspense up a notch. But, like Survivor said, their deaths have to seem natural and be a part of the plot for this to work properly. Otherwise your story will just come across in the same way as some corny slasher movie where you know from the start who the real hero is and that everybody else you are introduced to is probably going to end up being killed.
Posts: 156 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Still, I'm somewhat up on the first draft which made 90k for the entire thing!
